ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

[Jerry Shugart]

If the body we are resurrected into isn't a physical human body like what we have today, then you deny bodily resurrection. Your statements make it fairly clear that you don't mean a physical body.

The word "physical" means "pertainig to material nature," meaning pertaining to the things of the created universe. the things in heaven are in regard to the eternal state, a state which existed before the creation of the universe.

So there is no reason to suppose that the body which the Christian will have while inn heaven will be a "physical" body.

Congratulations, you're a heretic. 1 Corinthians 15 can only refer to a flesh and blood body. When Jesus was resurrected, He asked for and ate fish to demonstrate that He wasn't a ghost, that He wasn't just spiritual, but that He was physical, flesh and blood. He invited Thomas to come and touch the holes in His hands, feet, and side. These are flesh and blood manifestations. Jesus wanted to make it clear to His apostles that His resurrection was in a physical, flesh and blood body.

You have given no evidence that there is only one kind of "resurrction." the word itself simply means "a raising up" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon). In fact, your whole argument is based on your assumption that there is only one kind of resurrection.

You fail to understand that the heavenly body which the Christian will put on when he meets the Lord in the air will not be a "flesh and blood" body:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).

From the context and the reference to "incorruption" we can understand that the subject of these verses is to the resurrected body:

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor.15:52-53).

The only thing which you said in regard to the words about a "fesh and blood" body is this:

Sorry, Jerry, but if you deny flesh and blood resurrection, you are the one Paul is addressing in 1 Corinthians 15. If you deny bodily resurrection in flesh and blood, you're standing opposed to Paul.

If this is all about being resurrected in a "flesh and blood" body then tell me why Paul would say the following:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).

Pay attention to the whole text:

It is you who is avoiding 1 Corinthian 15 49-50 like the plague!

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[themuzicman]

The word "physical" means "pertainig to material nature," meaning pertaining to the things of the created universe. the things in heaven are in regard to the eternal state, a state which existed before the creation of the universe.

So there is no reason to suppose that the body which the Christian will have while inn heaven will be a "physical" body.

"Material nature" is distinguished from "ethereal nature." The physical universe is those elements of the universe which are matter and energy, not spirit. So, you're already playing with words in missing the mark, here.

You have given no evidence that there is only one kind of "resurrction." the word itself simply means "a raising up" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon). In fact, your whole argument is based on your assumption that there is only one kind of resurrection.

LOL... If you're going to state that we are resurrected differently from Christ, you're going to regret it... Perhaps you could tell us how Jesus can be the "firstfruits" and "firstborn from the dead", if we aren't raised like Him.

Or how we can be raised in His image if we are different.

You fail to understand that the heavenly body which the Christian will put on when he meets the Lord in the air will not be a "flesh and blood" body:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).

From the context and the reference to "incorruption" we can understand that the subject of these verses is to the resurrected body:

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor.15:52-53).

The only thing which you said in regard to the words about a "fesh and blood" body is this:

If this is all about being resurrected in a "flesh and blood" body then tell me why Paul would say the following:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).

It is you who is avoiding 1 Corinthian 15 49-50 like the plague!

In His grace,
Jerry

Um... I addressed 1 Cor 15:49. But I'll be more clear, if necessary:

1 cor 15:42So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

As I pointed out before, Paul is using a seed/reaping analogy. Just as a wheat seed results in wheat stalks rather than celery stalks, so when the flesh and blood body is planted, a flesh and blood body is raised, but in an improved stated. Paul is equating "spiritual" with "incorruptible."

In this next section, Paul is making a clear distinction between Adam and Christ:

45Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Notice the comparison. This is important as it sets up what follows. We know that Jesus (the last Adam) was flesh and blood, and was resurrected as such. And yet He is associated with being a "life-giving spirit." Thus, being "spiritual" does not void being flesh and blood.

46But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.

Next two verses: Adam is Natural, Christ is Spiritual. Adam was corruptible and was corrupted. Christ is uncorrupted and incorruptible.

Are you getting the point that Paul is making, here? "Natural" and "Physical" don't describe whether the body has flesh and blood, but rather whether we are corruptible or incorruptible.

48As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.

More Adam/Christ comparison, corrupted/incorruptible.

49Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Key words: "shall also bear."

We are presently in the image of Adam.. However.. We do not give up being in the image of Adam and we take on bearing the image of Christ. We, as Christ is, remain flesh and blood, as we take on the image of Christ in being incorruptible.

This is an additive process, where we take on incorruptibility and immortality to what we already have. It is not a replacement process, whereby our present bodies are replaced with something else.

This the words "Shall also bear."

50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

"Flesh and blood" referring to our present state. Corruptible. In the image of Adam only. We do not and cannot become imperishable as we are.

However:

51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Notice that we are changed... How? We add to ourselves the image of Christ as incorruptible.

and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

Notice that our present flesh and blood bodies put on incorruptibility.

54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality,

You see, when you actually take the time to study passages for yourself, and stop the practice of pulling things out of context, you see the larger picture. Paul isn't talking about a different body or some kind of ethereal body, but is talking about our own flesh and blood bodies taking on incorruptibility and immortality. We sow flesh and blood, and we are raised in improved flesh and blood.

There is simply no other way to read this entire passage.

As long as you hold to the idea that resurrection isn't physical flesh and blood resurrection, you have no gospel to offer.

Muz

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

The Lord was raised in a flesh and bone body. His blood had been shed.

The life of the flesh is in the blood for the earthly body, corruptible.
The life of the flesh is the Spirit in a spiritual body, incorruptible.

 

[themuzicman]

The Lord was raised in a flesh and bone body. His blood had been shed.

The life of the flesh is in the blood for the earthly body, corruptible.
The life of the flesh is the Spirit in a spiritual body, incorruptible.

And Spiritual body = Natural Body + Incorruptability + Immortality.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"You see, when you actually take the time to study passages for yourself, and stop the practice of pulling things out of context, you see the larger picture.

You prove that you can close your eyes and ignore the context:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).

Here it says that as we have borne the image of the earthly we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

What could this be speaking about but the difference between an "earthly" body and a "heavenly" body. But you continuer to argue that the Christian will be resurreced in an earthly body despite the clear teaching that the body which the Christian will put on when he is resurrected is a body from heaven. Despite this you say:

Paul isn't talking about a different body or some kind of ethereal body...

Paul describes the glorious body which the Christian will put on as "our house which is from heaven":

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor.5:1-2).

The natural body surely cannot be called a house which is from heaven because it is not from heaven. Despite this you still insist that the body in which the Christian will be resurrected is the same earthly body which they have while living on the earth!

Now let us look at the verse which follows:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).

This is obviously speaking about the "heavenly" body mentioned in verse 49, and from Paul's words it is obvious to anyone who will use his brain that that body is not made up of "flesh and blood."

All you can say about this is:

"Flesh and blood" referring to our present state. Corruptible. In the image of Adam only. We do not and cannot become imperishable as we are.

We cannot become imperishable in a "flesh and blood" body but you say that we will be resurrected in a body just like the flesh and blood" resurrected body of the Lord Jesus Christ!:

We, as Christ is, remain flesh and blood, as we take on the image of Christ in being incorruptible.

according to you the verse should read that "flesh and blood CAN inherit the kingdom of God."

You cannot understand the most simple things. Christians will be with the Lord in the eternal state, which is in heaven. The natural body was designed for the conditions on earth, a created planet. That body is not designed to function in the eternal state because that state does not have the environment of earth. The etetnal state existed before the created universe came into existence so the environment of earth is not the same environment that exists on the earth.

But all of this is above your reasoning. Since this envioronment is all you have ever known you just assume that this same environment exists in the eternal state as it does on earth.

You cannot tell the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body:

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Cor.15:44).

According to you the only difference between the two is that the natural body is improved:

We sow flesh and blood, and we are raised in improved flesh and blood.

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[themuzicman]

You prove that you can close your eyes and ignore the context:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).

Here it says that as we have borne the image of the earthly we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

What could this be speaking about but the difference between an "earthly" body and a "heavenly" body. But you continuer to argue that the Christian will be resurreced in an earthly body despite the clear teaching that the body which the Christian will put on when he is resurrected is a body from heaven.

Do you even bother to read what I wrote? The immediate previous few verses are contrasting Adam as nature and Christ as spiritual, and clearly identifies the difference between the two as corrupt and incorruptible.

Adam is flesh and blood alone. Christ is flesh and blood plus incorruptibility and immortality. There is simply no other way to read this.

Despite this you say:

Paul describes the glorious body which the Christian will put on as "our house which is from heaven":

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor.5:1-2).

LOL... Once again with the exegetical malpractice. You go snap some other verse from some other context, and without basis claim the are related. Do I have to do all your work for you?

6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

First, in this context, Paul is talking about suffering and persecution and the abuse of his body in chapter 4, and how he endures that suffering for the sake of Christ. So that's what leads up to our passage.

Second, if we continue reading, Paul isn't talking about our eternal state, here. (Indeed, he is still addressing persecution and being faithful.) What Paul is addressing can be more clearly seen in verse 8, where he addressed what happens when we die. We leave the body, and are present with the Lord.

This does not address resurrection. It does not address our eternal state at all. Yes, the house is eternal. That doesn't mean we're staying there forever.

And we can see that resurrection and judgment is future to all this in verse 10, as Paul clearly states that whether in our body or with Christ, we should seek to please Him, so that we will receive what is good when judgment comes.

It is simply astounding that you can continue to pull these gaffs and not hide your face in shame!

The natural body surely cannot be called a house which is from heaven because it is not from heaven. Despite this you still insist that the body in which the Christian will be resurrected is the same earthly body which they have while living on the earth!

Yes, because the house in heaven isn't our permanent dwelling! It's pre-resurrection, pre-judgment.

Now let us look at the verse which follows:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).

This is obviously speaking about the "heavenly" body mentioned in verse 49, and from Paul's words it is obvious to anyone who will use his brain that that body is not made up of "flesh and blood."

I already explained this in my last post. If you are simply incapable of reading and understanding the larger context of 1 Corinthians 15 and how Paul sets up these verse, then at least stop making yourself look imbecilic.

This is not obviously speaking about the "heavenly body" as not having flesh and blood. Again, key words: WE SHALL ALSO BEAR. It's right in your own quote.

We need more than flesh and blood to inherit the kingdom. But we do not discard or leave the flesh and blood behind when we do so. We also take on the image of the heavenly!

This is not a substitution it is an addition. We take on the image of the heavenly body to add to our flesh and blood body.

Were you even paying attention when I wrote that in my last post?

All you can say about this is:

We cannot become imperishable in a "flesh and blood" body but you say that we will be resurrected in a body just like the flesh and blood" resurrected body of the Lord Jesus Christ!:

according to you the verse should read that "flesh and blood CAN inherit the kingdom of God."

It continues to amaze me that you cannot comprehend what I write.

Did you read the words "shall ALSO bear"?

You've completely shredded Scripture, here. You're taking bits and pieces that say what you want, and ignoring those pieces that refute what you say.

Did you catch in this same verse where Paul says, "shall ALSO bear"? This is an additive process. I said it to S2P

Spiritual body = Natural body + incorruptibility + immortality.

Thus, what Paul is saying that Flesh and Blood, being only in Adam's state, we cannot inherit the kingdom. We need something more. We need to take on, we need to also bear the image of Christ, which is incorruptibility and immortality.

If what you say is true, then Jesus could not enter the Kingdom of Heaven/

You cannot understand the most simple things. Christians will be with the Lord in the eternal state, which is in heaven. The natural body was designed for the conditions on earth, a created planet. That body is not designed to function in the eternal state because that state does not have the environment of earth. The etetnal state existed before the created universe came into existence so the environment of earth is not the same environment that exists on the earth.

Sorry, but you continue to wallow in what Paul clearly calls heresy. You shred Scripture, not even bothering to take into account the words in the very verses you cite in trying to defend your heresy.

But all of this is above your reasoning. Since this envioronment is all you have ever known you just assume that this same environment exists in the eternal state as it does on earth.

And you have scriptural evidence that says otherwise? Seems to me that Revelation pretty clearly establishes a new earth for us to live on.

You cannot tell the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body:

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Cor.15:44).

According to you the only difference between the two is that the natural body is improved:

Gee... Do you get celery from wheat seeds? How about apples from mustard seeds?

You don't even bother to look at how Paul is using analogies in the very verses you cite. You get out of the ground what you plant in the ground.

And regardless of your lofty thoughts, the phrase "SHALL ALSO BEAR" clearly points to being resurrected in flesh and blood bodies and taking on incorruptibility and immortality.

I realize this probably crushes your theology, but Scripture trumps your theology. I suggest you bow to it.

Muz

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Do you even bother to read what I wrote? The immediate previous few verses are contrasting Adam as nature and Christ as spiritual, and clearly identifies the difference between the two as corrupt and incorruptible.

Adam is flesh and blood alone. Christ is flesh and blood plus incorruptibility and immortality. There is simply no other way to read this.

You failed to address that the subject in the following verse is referring to "bodies":

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).

We have already borne the image of the body of the earthly man. In the future (we shall also) we are going to also bear the image of the heavenly Man, and here is a reference to when that will take place:

"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our lowly body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself" (Phil.3:20-21).

The Lord Jesus will be coming from heaven so he will have a heavenly body. According to you a heavenly body is just the same body in which He was resurrected but now it is immortal. However, here is a vision which the Apostle John was given of the Lord Jesus in heaven:

“And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead” (Rev.1:13-17).

If the Lord Jesus' body in heaven is just like it was just after His resurrection why would John have been given a vision of Him that bears little resemblance to His earthly, resurrected body?

Once again with the exegetical malpractice.

You are so blind that you cannot even distinguish between the body of the Lord Jesus in heaven from the one He had on the earth.

And according to your nightmare exegesis, "flesh and blood" can enter into the kingdom of God!:

We need more than flesh and blood to inherit the kingdom. But we do not discard or leave the flesh and blood behind when we do so.

Paul says that flesh and blood shall not inherit ther kingdom but you say that flesh and blood will inherit the kingdom.

Let us look at the verses and see your interpretation of them:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).

you say:

This is not obviously speaking about the "heavenly body" as not having flesh and blood. Again, key words: WE SHALL ALSO BEAR. It's right in your own quote.

Yes, we shall bear the image of the heavenly body of Jesus Christ when we meet Him in the air. And the words which follow are referring to the heavenly kingdom of God--"flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

David K. Lowery says that what Paul said earlier about "the need for the natural body to give way to the spiritual, it followed that flesh and blood, the natural body, could not enter the eternal state" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, ed. by Walvoord & Zuck [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor, 1983], p.545).

Gee... Do you get celery from wheat seeds? How about apples from mustard seeds?

Paul compares the "natural" body as the "seed," and once it dies and sprouts what comes forth is a "spiritual" body.

So the seed in question is a "body seed" and like all seeds, when they die and bring forth fruit and the fruit is always very different from the seed.

When we examine your ideas we see that you believe that the following body of the Lord Jesus as seen in a vision of the Lord Jesus in heaven is the same exact body which He possessed after His earthly resurrection, only now it is immortal:

“And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead” (Rev.1:13-17).

Muz, you are quickly loosing any credibility that you might have once enjoyed on this forum. You keep this up and no one will ever take you seriously again.

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[themuzicman]

You failed to address that the subject in the following verse is referring to "bodies":

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).

Your incapacity for reading comprehension is incredible.

I directly addressed the subject of "bodies" in these verses. I clearly states that the earthy body is what we have today, which will be resurrected, and we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (note the direct quote from these verses), which is Christ and more specifically incorruptibility and immortality. In sort, the heavenly is added to the flesh and blood, the earthly body to make it worthy of the kingdom of Heaven.

Does everything need to be put in elderly print for you?

We have already borne the image of the body of the earthly man. In the future (we shall also) we are going to also bear the image of the heavenly Man, and here is a reference to when that will take place:

"For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our lowly body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself" (Phil.3:20-21).

And this fits exactly into what I've been saying.

Our lowly body is changed, fashioned to be like Christ's body. Notice that the flesh and blood part is not discarded, but changed. Thus, flesh and blood is resurrected, and incorruptibility and immortality added. Your own proof text refutes you.

is the elderly print helping you to read better?

The Lord Jesus will be coming from heaven so he will have a heavenly body. According to you a heavenly body is just the same body in which He was resurrected but now it is immortal. However, here is a vision which the Apostle John was given of the Lord Jesus in heaven:

“And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead” (Rev.1:13-17).

If the Lord Jesus' body in heaven is just like it was just after His resurrection why would John have been given a vision of Him that bears little resemblance to His earthly, resurrected body?

First, Who said it wasn't? I don't recall the NT saying what color Jesus' hair was after resurrection. Nor do I recall "white" as being an unusual "flesh and blood" color. We usually call it "gray", but often it is quite white and in biblical times, reflected wisdom. Brass can be similar to the color skin that Jews have. This description is an attempt by John to reflect Christ as perfectly human: wise, unblemished, and focused

Second, this is apocalyptic literature. Almost everything in John's Revelation is going to be symbolic in nature. These are probably not literal descriptions, but are intended to reflect other attributes of Christ, such as wisdom, purity and strength.

You are so blind that you cannot even distinguish between the body of the Lord Jesus in heaven from the one He had on the earth.

LOL.. you are so hell bent on protecting your theology that you shred Scripture to preserve it.

Seriously, Jerry.. you gotta stop.

And according to your nightmare exegesis, "flesh and blood" can enter into the kingdom of God!:

Paul says that flesh and blood shall not inherit ther kingdom but you say that flesh and blood will inherit the kingdom.

Let us look at the verses and see your interpretation of them:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).

you say:

Yes, we shall bear the image of the heavenly body of Jesus Christ when we meet Him in the air. And the words which follow are referring to the heavenly kingdom of God--"flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

More shredding of Scripture. You omitted a small, but very important word, which shreds your argument, here.

Yes, we shall ALSO* bear the image of the heavenly body of Jesus Christ when we meet Him in the air

(*fixed to reflect the actual text of scripture, not your shredded version.)

Clearly Paul's intent in writing these verses is to say that earthly bodies alone may not inherit the kingdom. We must ALSO bear the image of the heavenly.

You consistently omit that word, probably because it shreds your theology.

David K. Lowery says that what Paul said earlier about "the need for the natural body to give way to the spiritual, it followed that flesh and blood, the natural body, could not enter the eternal state" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, ed. by Walvoord & Zuck [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor, 1983], p.545).

Looks as though Mr. Lowery missed the word "also", too.

Paul compares the "natural" body as the "seed," and once it dies and sprouts what comes forth is a "spiritual" body.

Yes, and seeds produce plants of their own likeness. Thus, a flesh and body seed will produce a flesh and body plant, just like a wheat seed produces a wheat plant!

So the seed in question is a "body seed" and like all seeds, when they die and bring forth fruit and the fruit is always very different from the seed.

Are you this dumb? I already asked you whether you can get celery from a wheat seed! Of course you can't!

What is planted in the ground is directly reflected in what grows from it!

Again, can you get an apple from a mustard seed?!??? NO!!!

You plant apple seeds, you get apple trees.

When we examine your ideas we see that you believe that the following body of the Lord Jesus as seen in a vision of the Lord Jesus in heaven is the same exact body which He possessed after His earthly resurrection, only now it is immortal:

“And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead” (Rev.1:13-17).

Already addressed this exegetical farce.

Muz, you are quickly loosing any credibility that you might have once enjoyed on this forum. You keep this up and no one will ever take you seriously again.

Wow, Jerry.. You must be seriously desperate or seriously blind to not see that you're missing words, taking Scripture out of context, shredding Scripture, and a host of other things to try to hold your heresy together.

And we can see this plainly in how you immediately dropped your fiasco regarding 2 Cor 5, when your exegetical malpractice was exposed for what it is.

I call on you to repent of your heresy!

Muz

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your incapacity for reading comprehension is incredible.

You cannot underatand the simple things in Scripture. Here you put your words "large" just to show how big your stupidy is:

Clearly Paul's intent in writing these verses is to say that earthly bodies alone may not inherit the kingdom. We must ALSO bear the image of the heavenly.

You consistently omit that word, probably because it shreds your theology.

You obviously cannot understand what the word "also" signifies in these verses:

"The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:47-50).


He is speaking of those who are "earthly" in contrast to the One who is "heavenly."

Then he says that we have already borne the image of the earthly (meaning that we already possess earthly bodies) and in the furure we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

Evidently you cannot understand those simple words. Paul is saying that we have already borne the image of the earthly and we will, in the future, also bear the image of the heavenly.

You make a big deal about the signifiance of the word "also" but in fact it changes nothing I said.

You cannot even understand English and you have the nerve to call those who do "stupid."

You also think that the following is a perfect description of the Lord which matches a description of Him as He was on earth in His resurrected body:

“And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead” (Rev.1:13-17).

According to John when he saw a vision of the heavenly Jesus Christ he "fell at his feet as dead,"!

But according to you the appearance of what John saw was nothing more than he saw when he viewed the Lord Jesus after His resurrection but before He ascended into heaven:

I don't recall the NT saying what color Jesus' hair was after resurrection. Nor do I recall "white" as being an unusual "flesh and blood" color. We usually call it "gray", but often it is quite white and in biblical times, reflected wisdom. Brass can be similar to the color skin that Jews have. This description is an attempt by John to reflect Christ as perfectly human: wise, unblemished, and focused

And you have the nerve to call others "stupid."

This shows that your judgment in regard to what the Scriptures say is flawed and not trustworthy. The following verses are saying that men in their "flesh and blood" bodies cannot enter into the heavenly kingdom:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:47-50).

But you say that they can but that alone is not enough:

Clearly Paul's intent in writing these verses is to say that earthly bodies alone may not inherit the kingdom.

And you call me stupid? t is evident that your I.Q. is slightly lower than that of a ham sandwich!

 

[themuzicman]

You cannot underatand the simple things in Scripture. Here you put your words "large" just to show how big your stupidy is:

You obviously cannot understand what the word "also" signifies in these verses:

"The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:47-50).


He is speaking of those who are "earthly" in contrast to the One who is "heavenly."

OK, this is the dumbest thing you've said yet.

"Also" is not a contrast word. "Also" is an additive word. I do this. I also do that. This means that I do both things, not that I am contrasting them.

I cannot believe I am explaining the meaning of a four letter English word (which happens to be a three letter Greek word), especially on so basic to the English language.

There is simply no reading of this verse that allows an interpretation that allows you get away from the fact that we will continue to be flesh and blood (have borne the image of the man of dust) AND (we shall ALSO) take on immortality and incorruptibility (bear the image of the man of heaven.)


To say that "also" somehow conveys contrast is like saying the sky is green.

Then he says that we have already borne the image of the earthly (meaning that we already possess earthly bodies) and in the furure we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

Exactly. ALSO. TAKE ON SOMETHING IN ADDITION TO WHAT WE ALREADY ARE. CHANGED, not REPLACED, as we saw in the verse in Philippians that you have now abandoned, as it shreds your argument.

Evidently you cannot understand those simple words. Paul is saying that we have already borne the image of the earthly and we will, in the future, also bear the image of the heavenly.

ALSO. IN ADDITION. FLESH AND BLOOD DOES NOT GO AWAY.

You make a big deal about the signifiance of the word "also" but in fact it changes nothing I said.

It changes your contention that there is contrast between the earthly body and what happens to it at the resurrection. The earthly body is resurrected, and the image of the heavenly man is added to it to create the spiritual body. It remains flesh and blood.

You cannot even understand English and you have the nerve to call those who do "stupid."

LOL... look up the word "also."

And the word "backpeddling."

You also think that the following is a perfect description of the Lord Jesus as He was on earth in His resurrected body:

“And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead” (Rev.1:13-17).

According to John when he saw a vision of the heavenly Jesus Christ he "fell at his feet as dead,"!

That generally happens when you see God.

But according to you the appearance of what John saw was nothing more than he saw when he viewed the Lord Jesus afgter His resurrection but before He ascended into heaven.

Hmm.. You think the sword in his mouth and the voice like many waters might have had something to do with that?

For that matter, do you think this just might also all be symbolic language, and that John is wholly unconcerned with Jesus' physical appearance? After all, John recognizes Jesus without being introduced. He must have looked quite familiar.

This shows that your judgment in regard to what the Scriptures say is flawed and not trustworthy. The following verses are saying that men in their "flesh and blood" bodies cannot enter into the heavenly kingdom:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:47-50).

It's called "exegesis." It's called reading Scripture in context.

But you say that they can but that alone is not enough:

And you call me stupid?

Yep. You shred Scripture for your own theological benefit, and you fail to even understand the meaning of a simple word.

That's pretty dumb.

Muz

 

[Jerry Shugart]

OK, this is the dumbest thing you've said yet.

"Also" is not a contrast word. "Also" is an additive word. I do this. I also do that. This means that I do both things, not that I am contrasting them.

Stupid, I never said that "also" is a contrast word. Now you must make things up in order to atteck me. First I quoted these verses:

"The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:47-50).

Then I said:

"He is speaking of those who are "earthly" in contrast to the One who is 'heavenly.'"

What I said there was in regard to verse 47. And that verse does not include the word "also."

Despite this you say:

"Also" is not a contrast word. "Also" is an additive word. I do this. I also do that. This means that I do both things, not that I am contrasting them.

You need to go back to school and try again to learn to read English.

 

[themuzicman]

Stupid, I never said that "also" is a contrast word. Now you must make things up in order to atteck me. First I quoted these verses:

"The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:47-50).

Then I said:

"He is speaking of those who are "earthly" in contrast to the One who is 'heavenly.'"

Another stupid mistake. Did you bother to read the verses before verse 47?

45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

Paul isn't talking about us. He's talking about the contrast between Adam and Christ, who Paul refers to as the first and last Adam

Again with the SHREDDING of Scripture.

But, when we get to verse 49, we find not contrast, but combination! We are already of the natural. In the resurrection we shall ALSO take on the spiritual. Addition, not replacement.

Also continues to stand against you with respect to our state in the resurrection.

What I said there was in regard to verse 47. And that verse does not include the word "also."

But verse 47 isn't talking about US. It's talking about Christ and Adam.

There is a transition at verse 49. Paul goes from talking about Adam and Christ to talking about "WE", and how we fit into the contrast. We now bear the image of Adam, and we will ALSO BEAR (add on to this) the image of Christ, in that we gain incorruptibility and immortality.

Not sure how many different ways this can be explained to you.

Despite this you say:

You need to go back to school and try again to learn to read English.

(FYI, you were not clear as to which "earthly" and "heavenly" you were referring to. Given that you had previously placed a heavy emphasis on 49, I assumed you were still pointing there. Either way, the contrast does NOT carry on into 49, which is the error you continue to commit.)

I want everyone to note that Jerry has tried to shred 2 Cor, Philippians and now Revelation, and after having his grievous errors explained to him, he has abandoned these arguments. One can only expect that the same kinds of exegetical errors that caused him to abandon those should be compelling him to abandon this one.

Muz

 

[Jerry Shugart]

But, when we get to verse 49, we find not contrast, but combination! We are already of the natural. In the resurrection we shall ALSO take on the spiritual. Addition, not replacement.

Paul makes it plain that the "spiritual" body is not the same as the "natural" body which has merely been changed. Instead, he makes it plain that they are two separate types of bodies:

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Cor.15:44).

He compares the "natural body" to a seed. The natural body or seed is sown, and at the time it is sown the "seed" is likened to a "natural" body. Then when the fruit comes from the seed, the fruit is described as a "spiritual" body.

They are not one and the same. It is not that the "spiritual" body is merely the "natural" body that has been made immortal. The "seed" that is sown is not the same at that which blooms. They are two separate and distinct things. But you cannot even understand these simple analogy.

As I said earlier, the Apostle says that the resurrection body of the Christian is a body that is from heaven:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor.5:1-2).

When Paul speaks of being "clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" he is obviously speaking of putting on a new body, and that body is from heaven.

we can clearly see that this is true from his remarks in verse four:

"For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life" (2 Cor.5:4).

Here Peter is comparing our natural body to a tabernacle and he speaks of being "clothed upon" that morality might be swallowed up of life. In verse two he expresses his desire to be "clothed upon" with "our house which is from heaven," and that house is therefore that which results in "mortality" being swallowed up in life.

Clearly the "tabernacle" is referring to an "earthly" body, as we can clearly see by what Peter says here:

"Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me" (2 Pet.1:13-14).

But you cannot even see these things. You say:

First, in this context, Paul is talking about suffering and persecution and the abuse of his body in chapter 4, and how he endures that suffering for the sake of Christ. So that's what leads up to our passage.

Second, if we continue reading, Paul isn't talking about our eternal state, here. (Indeed, he is still addressing persecution and being faithful.) What Paul is addressing can be more clearly seen in verse 8, where he addressed what happens when we die. We leave the body, and are present with the Lord.

This does not address resurrection. It does not address our eternal state at all. Yes, the house is eternal. That doesn't mean we're staying there forever.

According to you, "Paul isn't talking about our eternal state, here."

So according to you "mortality" being swallowed up in life has nothing to do with the eternal state!:

"For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life" (2 Cor.5:4).

You say that the verses which I quoted are not in regard to "resurrection." If that is true then tell me what he is referring to when he speaks of "being closed on

"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor.5:1-2).

While you are at it, tell me how the same being "clothed upon" leads to mortalirty being swallowed up in life.

"For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life" (2 Cor.5:4).

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Jerry, I think we are in agreement that there's a difference between the spiritual body of the members of the Body of Christ and the resurrected bodies of the "old testament" saints, for example, who will inherit the land.

I don't believe either one will have blood, do you agree?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, I think we are in agreement that there's a difference between the spiritual body of the members of the Body of Christ and the resurrected bodies of the "old testament" saints, for example, who will inherit the land.

I don't believe either one will have blood, do you agree?

I am not sure about the resurrected saints who will be raised at the "resurrection of the just."

Why do you think that those resurrected saints will not have blood in their bodies?

 

[themuzicman]

Paul makes it plain that the "spiritual" body is not the same as the "natural" body which has merely been changed. Instead, he makes it plain that they are two separate types of bodies:

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Cor.15:44).

He compares the "natural body" to a seed. The natural body or seed is sown, and at the time it is sown the "seed" is likened to a "natural" body. Then when the fruit comes from the seed, the fruit is described as a "spiritual" body.

Exactly. They are of the same type, just as a wheat seed is of the same type as wheat.

They are not one and the same. It is not that the "spiritual" body is merely the "natural" body that has been made immortal. The "seed" that is sown is not the same at that which blooms. They are two separate and distinct things. But you cannot even understand these simple analogy.

LOL.. You obviously don't understand gardening or farming. You don't plant wheat seeds and get celery. You get wheat.

And your analogy runs completely counter to verse 49, where our earthly bodies shall also bear the heavenly.

As I said earlier, the Apostle says that the resurrection body of the Christian is a body that is from heaven:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor.5:1-2).

And you were refuted (and still have not addressed the context), where this is all pre-resurrection.

When Paul speaks of being "clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" he is obviously speaking of putting on a new body, and that body is from heaven.

we can clearly see that this is true from his remarks in verse four:

"For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life" (2 Cor.5:4).

Here Peter is comparing our natural body to a tabernacle and he speaks of being "clothed upon" that morality might be swallowed up of life. In verse two he expresses his desire to be "clothed upon" with "our house which is from heaven," and that house is therefore that which results in "mortality" being swallowed up in life.

Again, context blows up your theology:

1 Cor 5:9So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

All this is pre-resurrection. You hear that loud boom? That's your entire argument here going up in smoke because, once again, you couldn't be bothered to read the context and apply even an ounce of critical thought.

Clearly the "tabernacle" is referring to an "earthly" body, as we can clearly see by what Peter says here:

"Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me" (2 Pet.1:13-14).

Wow, snatching another unrelated verse and claiming that it somehow matters.... More shredding of Scripture.

But you cannot even see these things. You say:

According to you, "Paul isn't talking about our eternal state, here."

So according to you "mortality" being swallowed up in life has nothing to do with the eternal state!:

"For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life" (2 Cor.5:4).

You say that the verses which I quoted are not in regard to "resurrection." If that is true then tell me what he is referring to when he speaks of "being closed on

"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor.5:1-2).

While you are at it, tell me how the same being "clothed upon" leads to mortalirty being swallowed up in life.

"For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life" (2 Cor.5:4).

OK, all there is left is smoke, after a very simple examination of the context, we see that all this is about pleasing Christ, whether home here or away from the body, in anticipation of the judgment to come.

Poof... your argument? all gone...

Muz

 

[DFT_Dave]

The Lord lives in the ever present "now." With Him there is no past and there is no future. As I have already shown the eternal state is very different than the existence we live. Can you describe what it is like in the eternal state, a time before the creation of all things of the universe? Of course you cannot. Therefore you should understand that it is difficult to even understand the things in regard to the eternal state, much less put those thoughts into writing.

Now I will ask you to do something. Will you describe the "spiritual" body which Paul speaks of here and tell me how it differs from a "natural" body:

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (1 Cor.15:42-44).

I believe that the "spiritual body" is a body designed to inhabit the eternal state (see 1 Cor.15:42-44).

It is not an easy thing to do but try to desribe the "spiritual body."

In His grace,
Jerry

"The Lord lives in the ever present 'now.' With Him there is no past and there is no future."

This is a good place to start. Now how would you answer this question; did God exist before he created the world?

C. S. Lewis

"I certainly believe that to be God is to enjoy an infinite present where nothing has passed away and nothing is still to come. Does it follow that we can say the same of saints and angels? To make the life of the blessed dead strictly timeless is inconsistent with the resurrection of the body."

--Dave

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"The Lord lives in the ever present 'now.' With Him there is no past and there is no future."

This is a good place to start. Now how would you answer this question; did God exist before he created the world?

Since God lives in the ever present "now" there is no "before" or "after" with Him. The world came into existence in His ever present "now."

 

[elected4ever]

Since God lives in the ever present "now" there is no "before" or "after" with Him. The world came into existence in His ever present "now."

The ever present now demands time. There can be no ever present now without a past and a future.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

LOL.. You obviously don't understand gardening or farming. You don't plant wheat seeds and get celery. You get wheat.

It is you who does not understand the analogy. According to what Paul is saying it is a "natural body" that is sown as a "seed" is sown. What comes from the seed after it dies is always different from the seed. in this case what is sown (the natural body) comes forth in resurrection as a "spiritual body."

The "seed" and what comes forth from the death of that seed are never the same. They are different but you say that they must be the same.

And your analogy runs completely counter to verse 49, where our earthly bodies shall also bear the heavenly.

That is not what the verse says and you know it.

Instead, it says the following:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly" (1 Cor.15:49).

It is not the "earthly body" that has borne the image of the earthly, but instead it is the "inner man" (Eph.3:16) who has borne the image of the earthly. And it is also the "inner man" who shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

It is entirely irrational to insist Paul is saying that our earthly bodies will bear the image of the earthly and our earthly bodies will also bear the image of the heavenly. that just shows how far you are willing to go to cling to your mistaken views.

Now, let us look at the following verse again:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor.5:1-2).

You say:

And you were refuted (and still have not addressed the context), where this is all pre-resurrection.

Of course it is pre-resurrection. Paul speaks of "earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven."

If the thing he is desiring is not a resurrection body then what is he referring to?

All this is pre-resurrection. You hear that loud boom? That's your entire argument here going up in smoke because, once again, you couldn't be bothered to read the context and apply even an ounce of critical thought.

The context fits my ideas perfectly because Paul is speaking about things eternal:

OK, all there is left is smoke, after a very simple examination of the context, we see that all this is about pleasing Christ, whether home here or away from the body, in anticipation of the judgment to come.

The context fits perfectly with what I am saying:

"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2 Cor.4:18).

He leads in to the discussion about the "body" which is "eternal in the heavens" by speaking of eternal things. then he says:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2 Cor.5:1).

This is referring to the same thing here:

"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor.5:2).

If the words "house which is from heaven" is not referring to a resurrected body then what is it referring to?

You claim to be an expert on all this so tell me exactly what Paul is talking about when he says that he is desiring to be clothed upon.

Clothed upon with what?