ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

[DFT_Dave]

Since God lives in the ever present "now" there is no "before" or "after" with Him. The world came into existence in His ever present "now."

This looks like a irrational statement. Are you saying God did not create the world? Are you saying God did not exist before the world came into existence? Has the world always existed with God?

--Dave

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This looks like a irrational statement. Are you saying God did not create the world? Are you saying God did not exist before the world came into existence? Has the world always existed with God?

Dave, God (specifically the Lord Jesus Christ) created not just the world but the whole universe. This happened in the eternal state, the ever present "now."

When we look back with our concept of time in view we can understand that in "time" the Lord God existed before the universe was created because it did not exist until He created it. That necessarily means that with our concept of "time" in view that God existed before the world came into existence.

I hope that answers your question.

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[godrulz]

Jerry, I think we are in agreement that there's a difference between the spiritual body of the members of the Body of Christ and the resurrected bodies of the "old testament" saints, for example, who will inherit the land.

I don't believe either one will have blood, do you agree?

OT saints, dead Trib. saints, Church Age saints will all be raised with a glorified body like Christ's. There will be continuity with the old body (nail prints; eating) and differences (Jesus appeared in the room), it will be a physical/bodily resurrection involving change and some differences. It will not have blood, urine, feces. Only those who survive the Tribulation as saints will go into the Millennium in natural bodies.

I am confused about muz's view. Does he believe in a heavenly hope or a JW earthly one?

The glorified body is a spiritual body, not a ghost. It has continuity with our existing body (similar), but is not identical to it (or it would die in heaven).

Oh, STP, we are talking about resurrection/glorification. Regeneration is spiritual justification/conversion, not physical resurrection.

Let me know when you come to your senses and renounce MAD, KJV-only, anti-Pentecostal, and become an Open Theist Pentecostal. I will buy you a Root Beer.

 

[godrulz]

Since God lives in the ever present "now" there is no "before" or "after" with Him. The world came into existence in His ever present "now."

That is not what the tensed expressions in Ps. 90:2 say.

There was a before and after Gen. 1:1, even for God. In your view, creation is co-eternal with God (nonsense).

<----eternal, uncreated Creator----------------------Creation, the beginning of the universe's history and unique measure of time, not time itself--------Fall-----Flood-----David-----incarnation----life----death----resurrection-----2010-----Second Coming----eternal state, etc. etc.----->).

Time is simply a concept of duration, sequence, succession. History is His Story. There is no hint of philosophical timelessness. At face value, creation must precede cross, even in God's experience. Eternal now is Platonic, Augustinian, NOT Scripture.

Time is not a thing or a line or space that God can be 'outside' of.


NOPE God

<Genesis----------Revelation ff. --->

 

[godrulz]

Dave, God (specifically the Lord Jesus Christ) created not just the world but the whole universe. This happened in the eternal state, the ever present "now."

When we look back with our concept of time in view we can understand that in "time" the Lord God existed before the universe was created because it did not exist until He created it. That necessarily means that with our concept of "time" in view that God existed before the world came into existence.

I hope that answers your question.

In His grace,
Jerry

Honestly, this does not compute. It is philosophical rambling, not logical/biblical coherence.

 

[andyc]

Honestly, this does not compute. It is philosophical rambling, not logical/biblical coherence.

Your operating system has a socinus virus

 

[themuzicman]

It is you who does not understand the analogy. According to what Paul is saying it is a "natural body" that is sown as a "seed" is sown. What comes from the seed after it dies is always different from the seed. in this case what is sown (the natural body) comes forth in resurrection as a "spiritual body."

The "seed" and what comes forth from the death of that seed are never the same. They are different but you say that they must be the same.

You keep avoiding the question: Do you get celery from wheat seeds?

And the obvious answer is "NO! You get wheat from wheat seeds."

And you continue to misrepresent what I've said.

The "spiritual body" is the "natural body" plus incorruptibility and immortality. Thus, the spiritual body is different in that it has had things added to it, but it remains the human body that it always was.

In the same way, a wheat seed goes into the ground, and grows up. It has a stalk and leaves and grows new seeds, but fundamentally, it is still wheat.

How you can avoid the obviousness of the analogy combined with verse 49, where Paul says, "we shall also bear" is astounding.

That is not what the verse says and you know it.

LOL... That is a lie.

Instead, it says the following:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly" (1 Cor.15:49).

It is not the "earthly body" that has borne the image of the earthly, but instead it is the "inner man" (Eph.3:16) who has borne the image of the earthly. And it is also the "inner man" who shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Oh! Oh! Another proof text taken out of context? Why am I not surprised?

First, you continue to ignore "ALSO" in 15:49. There is simply no doubt that Paul is saying that we continue to bear the image of the earthly as we take on the image of the heavenly.

Eph 3:16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.

Second, Eph 3:16 is talking specifically about our earthly being, Paul is talking about strengthening our inner man now, while still here in these earthly bodies!

I think we can add #5 to the list of verses you've shredded in an attempt to create this mythical wholly other "body" to be resurrected into.

(TBH, this sounded a bit like backpeddling, as you seem to want to say that the spiritual being already exists as this "inner man."

It is entirely irrational to insist Paul is saying that our earthly bodies will bear the image of the earthly and our earthly bodies will also bear the image of the heavenly. that just shows how far you are willing to go to cling to your mistaken views.

Yeah, taking Scripture in context and actually reading what it says rather than shredding it to fit a theology can be rough...

Then again, for you, understanding what "also" means is rough.

Now, let us look at the following verse again:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor.5:1-2).

You say:

Of course it is pre-resurrection. Paul speaks of "earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven."

If the thing he is desiring is not a resurrection body then what is he referring to?

Being with Christ in heaven, now. Pre-resurrection. Read the entire passage. Paul is talking about the suffering of persecution and the relief of going to be with Christ.

Evidence? Verse 9 and 10... We are to please Christ, whether here or in heaven, so that in the judgment we are received favorably.

You might actually try reading more than a verse at a time.

The context fits my ideas perfectly because Paul is speaking about things eternal:

The context fits perfectly with what I am saying:

"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2 Cor.4:18).

He leads in to the discussion about the "body" which is "eternal in the heavens" by speaking of eternal things. then he says:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2 Cor.5:1).

This is referring to the same thing here:

"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor.5:2).

If the words "house which is from heaven" is not referring to a resurrected body then what is it referring to?

You claim to be an expert on all this so tell me exactly what Paul is talking about when he says that he is desiring to be clothed upon.

Clothed upon with what?

More shredding of Scripture. One wonders if your bible doesn't look like Swiss cheese.

2 Cor 4:16Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. 17For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

What exactly is Paul calling eternal? This new clothing? A new building? No!

Paul is talking about the eternal glory that he will receive when his work is complete.

So, let's look at what happens at the beginning of chapter 5:

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.

There is a transition, here. Paul goes from talking about persecution and wasting away in this life, yearning for the eternal glory of God, to a discussion of living and dying. If we die, we go to be with Christ in an dwelling that is eternal. This isn't resurrection. This is death.

How do we know?

Because we are to continue to please Him because of the coming judgment.

2 cor 5:9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

All this is pre-resurrection.

I hope you're not using an electronic paper shredder on your bible. You're going to have a really high electric bill, if you do.

Muz

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You keep avoiding the question:

It is you who refuses to answer the following about the following verses:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2 Cor.5:1).

This is referring to the same thing here:

"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor.5:2).

If the words "house which is from heaven" is not referring to a resurrected body then what is it referring to?

You claim to be an expert on all this so tell me exactly what Paul is talking about when he says that he is desiring to be clothed upon.

Clothed upon with what?

You refuse to even attempt to answer!

Anyone with the slighest degree of spiritual discernment knows that these verses are referring to the Christian's heavenly body which he will put on in the future.

But you refuse to answer.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Time is simply a concept of duration, sequence, succession. History is His Story.

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev.13:8).

 

[themuzicman]

It is you who refuses to answer the following about the following verses:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2 Cor.5:1).

This is referring to the same thing here:

"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven" (2 Cor.5:2).

If the words "house which is from heaven" is not referring to a resurrected body then what is it referring to?

You claim to be an expert on all this so tell me exactly what Paul is talking about when he says that he is desiring to be clothed upon.

Clothed upon with what?

Paul is mixing a couple of ideas, here, using "dwelling" and "clothed" as synonyms in the analogy. Paul isn't so concerned with whether this is a body or a dwelling, but rather that when one dies and this earthly body is left behind that one is in heaven with Christ in the dwelling prepared for us during that time.

Let's look at how Paul specifically addresses this:

the earthly tent we live in

we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling

as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord

So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.

Notice that in every instance, we are "clothed" with a dwelling. When here on earth, our body is our tent. When away from our body, we are in the dwelling, whatever that is, in heaven.

And, as has been pointed out many times, verses 9 and 10 tell us that we are to continue to please Christ, whether in our bodies or in the heavenly dwelling, because of the future coming appearance before judgment seat of Christ.

Thus, this whole discussion is quite moot, since it is pre-resurrection condition.

There. Question answered.

Anyone with the slighest degree of spiritual discernment knows that these verses are referring to the Christian's heavenly body which he will put on in the future.

Anyone with the ability to read and comprehend will know that this all occurs upon death and before resurrection, as verse 9 and 10 make perfectly clear.

But you refuse to answer.

Done. And your argument still falls apart.

Muz

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul is mixing a couple of ideas, here, using "dwelling" and "clothed" as synonyms in the analogy.

By your words here it is obvious that Paul is NOT using "dwelling" and "clothed" as synonyms in the analogy:

Notice that in every instance, we are "clothed" with a dwelling.

Next you show that you are even more confused:

When away from our body, we are in the dwelling, whatever that is, in heaven.

No, Paul refers to our state when we are away from our body (in other words, when we are dead physically) as being "naked":

"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked" (2 Cor.5:2-3).

You cannot understand what Paul is speaking about because you have made up your mind that the "house which is from heaven" which the Christian will be "clothed upon" cannot be referring to the "heavenly" body which the Christian will put on in the future:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).

Not only that but you say that "flesh and Blood" CAN inherit the kingdom of God.

You throw reason to the wind and imagine that the language in regard to being "clothed upon" does not refer to a body but instead a dwelling place in heaven where the Christian goes upon death:

when one dies and this earthly body is left behind that one is in heaven with Christ in the dwelling prepared for us during that time.

It makes perfect sense to use the words "clothed upon" to refer to a body which the Christian will be changed into. At the same time it makes no sense to use the expression "clothed upon" to refer to a dwelling which one will inhabit in heaven.

But nothing you have said has made sense so far so there is no reason to expect that you would start to make sense.

After all, according to you flesh and blood CAN inherit the kingdom!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

OT saints, dead Trib. saints, Church Age saints will all be raised with a glorified body like Christ's. There will be continuity with the old body (nail prints; eating) and differences (Jesus appeared in the room), it will be a physical/bodily resurrection involving change and some differences.

What differences?

Would you give me your interpretation of the meaning of the following words?:

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).

Thanks!

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[themuzicman]

By your words here it is obvious that Paul is NOT using "dwelling" and "clothed" as synonyms in the analogy:

Um.. Every time we see "clothed", we see "dwelling." They are clearly being used in the same sense.

Next you show that you are even more confused:

No, Paul refers to our state when we are away from our body (in other words, when we are dead physically) as being "naked":

"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked" (2 Cor.5:2-3).

You cannot understand what Paul is speaking about because you have made up your mind that the "house which is from heaven" which the Christian will be "clothed upon" cannot be referring to the "heavenly" body which the Christian will put on in the future:

Different future. You are completely ignoring 2 Cor 5:9-10, which clearly make the state Paul is speaking of in 2 Cir 5:1-8 pre-resurrection.

"And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1 Cor.15:49-50).

You've not given a basis for these two being related. We're back to Matt 27:5 and Luke 3:11b.

Not only that but you say that "flesh and Blood" CAN inherit the kingdom of God.

Misrepresentation.

You throw reason to the wind and imagine that the language in regard to being "clothed upon" does not refer to a body but instead a dwelling place in heaven where the Christian goes upon death:

It makes perfect sense to use the words "clothed upon" to refer to a body which the Christian will be changed into. At the same time it makes no sense to use the expression "clothed upon" to refer to a dwelling which one will inhabit in heaven.

It matters not what you think makes sense when you're ignoring the text. The contexts of each text put each event in different time periods. 2 Cor 5:9-10 is pre-resurrection. 1 Cor 15 is post-resurrection.

But nothing you have said has made sense so far so there is no reason to expect that you would start to make sense.

After all, according to you flesh and blood CAN inherit the kingdom!

Again, misrepresentation by being incomplete in representing my position.

And you're being quite hypocritical, here. You've demanded that I answer what "clothed" means in 2 Cor 5, but I've already pointed out repeatedly that 2 Cor 5:9-10 put all of 2 Cor 5 as pre-resurrection, and you fail to address this.

Until you address this problem you simply cannot relate 2 Cor 5 to 1 Cor 15. Exegesis trumps what makes sense in your theology every time.

Muz

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Um.. Every time we see "clothed", we see "dwelling." They are clearly being used in the same sense.

You work hard at being stupid. Just because the two words are used together does not mean that they are used in the same sense. To be "clothed upon" is not the same thing as a dwelling!

Different future. You are completely ignoring 2 Cor 5:9-10, which clearly make the state Paul is speaking of in 2 Cir 5:1-8 pre-resurrection.

I said before that all of this is pre-resurrection. Here Paul speaks of "desiring" (future tense) in regard to being clothed with a body which is from heaven:

"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked" (2 Cor.5:2-3).

But you fail to even attempt to say what the expression "shall not be found naked" means.

I say that this figurative language fits perfectly with the idea on being "clothed upon" with a body which is from heaven. When one is dead and separated from his earthly body then it can be said in a figurative sense that he is "naked."

Now give me what you think Paul is saying when he uses the words "shall not be found naked."

 

[themuzicman]

You work hard at being stupid. Just because the two words are used together does not mean that they are used in the same sense. To be "clothed upon" is not the same thing as a dwelling!

Gee, Jerry.. I think Paul would disagree.. I already listed the usages in this passage, and you've ignored it.

Let's try again:

2 cor 5:2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling

4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling

Notice that in both instances, Paul uses them together.

There's a reason for that.

I said before that all of this is pre-resurrection. Here Paul speaks of "desiring" (future tense) in regard to being clothed with a body which is from heaven:

"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked" (2 Cor.5:2-3).

Duh... As Paul is writing this He isn't dead yet. He's speaking of his death, not his resurrection.

But you fail to even attempt to say what the expression "shall not be found naked" means.

LOL... This means that we have a heavenly dwelling waiting for us upon our death in which to be clothed. Certain you cannot be dumb enough not to figure that out.

I say that this figurative language fits perfectly with the idea on being "clothed upon" with a body which is from heaven. When one is dead and separated from his earthly body then it can be said in a figurative sense that he is "naked."

Matt 27:5 language fits perfectly with Luke 3:11b, too.

But I don't see you following that, either.

Again, just because something seems to fit into your theology well doesn't mean that the exegesis must follow.

Now give me what you think Paul is saying when he uses the words "shall not be found naked."

Done.

Now it's your turn:

Give us an exegetical basis to ignore 2 Cor 5:9-10, where clearly when clothed with this heavenly dwelling, we are to continue to please Christ in anticipation of the resurrection and judgment to follow.

Keep in mind that we don't actually get to take on the heavenly until we are resurrected.

Muz

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I don't think Luke 3:11b is in the earliest and best manuscripts.

 

[themuzicman]

I don't think Luke 3:11b is in the earliest and best manuscripts.

Given the way that you and Jerry shred Scripture to save your theology, that doesn't surprise me in the least.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Given the way that you and Jerry shred Scripture to save your theology, that doesn't surprise me in the least.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1699532&postcount=15

 

[DFT_Dave]

Dave, God (specifically the Lord Jesus Christ) created not just the world but the whole universe. This happened in the eternal state, the ever present "now."

When we look back with our concept of time in view we can understand that in "time" the Lord God existed before the universe was created because it did not exist until He created it. That necessarily means that with our concept of "time" in view that God existed before the world came into existence.

I hope that answers your question.

In His grace,
Jerry

So, you are saying that God did not exist before he created the world. I thought that Genesis clearly stated that God existed before he created the world. It seems to me, and most other Christians, that this is an absolute truth and a reality for us and for God. I quess you believe that the world/universe has always existed in the "eternal now" where there is no begining and no end. Either God existed before he created the world or the world has always existed; there is no other "reasonable" option.

Are you a liberal, do you "not" take the word of God literally? Do you believe in absolutes?

--Dave

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul is mixing a couple of ideas, here, using "dwelling" and "clothed" as synonyms in the analogy.

Do you even know what the word "synonyms" means?

Obviously not! You shouldn't use words that you do not even understand their meaning. The word means "a word having the same or nearly the same meaning as another."

If they are "synonyms" then we must all of a sudden get us dumb as you are and imagine that the words "dwelling" and "clothed" have "the same or nearly the same meaning" as each other!

I am tired of discussing these things with an illiterate fool who thinks that when Paul says "that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" he really means that flesh and blood CAN inherit the kingdom of God.

Go waste someone else's time with your unbelief and inability to understand English. I have had enough!