ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

[Philetus]

Matthew 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

(theologically speaking of course)

I get what GR is saying and I do wish I could agree with his generosity here, but I gotta go with Clete on this one; Calvinism's Tulip is ... well, is like a lot of our own stuff ... I don't have the words ... is bloomin' dung; garbage to be forsaken and dumped in order to know Christ in the power of His resurrection (to steal a Pauline metaphor).

But, in all honesty, I find it disheartening that more often than not a reform movement doesn't know when to quit with the simple truth of the Gospel and goes bouncing off the pages of scripture in search of ever more and more, deep hidden, concealed tidbits that blows the cover off everybody else’s error. The second we think ourselves wise we become fools and the simple Gospel is eclipsed once again while our foolishness often lasts for centuries.

Left Behind my ***. It is the stuck-immutable-church being left behind these days. The world gets Open Theism better than we armchair theologians do! God is at work IN THE WORLD through the Spirit of Christ Jesus and for the most part is working without the traditional church's interference. Go figure! Grass root movements are springing up all over the Western world, returning to the Jesus of the Gospel witnesses and washing their hands of ALL the contaminating influences from Greek philosophies and churchianities theological self-validating BS.

We have cashed in "Without me you can do nothing" and "I can do all things through Christ" for "How dare God do anything without us."

God save us from ourselves and each other.

Philetus

 

[Philetus]

You're wrong. They do not believe that God became a man. They do not believe that God died. They do not believe that God rose from the dead. They do not even believe God capable of such things! God is utterly immutable, remember! To say that God became a man is some sort of figure of speech or something.

And it isn't just trivial disagreements concerning God omniscience that separate us from them it is substantive disagreement about WHO God is and what sort of person He is. Nang has said and repeated several times that she believes that evil is for the greater good and that God is responsible for its existence! She and AMR both believe that God sets fire to your house (metaphorically speaking) so that He could rush in a rescue you from the flames and then demands praise and worship for having done so. That IS NOT the God of the Bible. That's the god of the Greeks but it bears no resemblence whatsoever to the God of Scripture. They believe in the wrong God, the wrong Jesus just as surely as do the Mormons or JW's.


Just what is it that you consider essential then?

Can you believe God to be unjust and still believe in the God of Scripture?
Can you believe God to be arbitrary and still believe in the God of Scripture?
Can you believe God to be a stone idol and still believe in the God of Scripture?
Can you believe God to be a purple Unicorn and still believe in the God of Scripture?

Where do you draw the line, godrulz?

Christianity isn't about words on a page, its about loving God. Its about having a relationship with a very specific person, namely Jesus Christ the Son of the Living, Loving, Righteous, and Just God who created us and willingly became one of us so as to give Himself for us. AMR's and Nang's God isn't even capable of doing that!


So what?

Why should I give a damn about what a person who doesn't even worship the same God that I do thinks about me and my beliefs?

We cannot both be right, godrulz. Of course they think I'm a heretic! They have a completely different religion than I do! The worship a totally different god than the One I serve. Their belief that I'm a heretical lunatic is only just so much more evidence that their religion is in no way compatible with mine.


So do I!

I am not saying that AMR and Nang are unbelievers merely because they happen to be wear the label of "Calvinist" but rather because they have seen the logical conclusion of Calvinism and willfully embraced it. Most Calvinists know nothing about Calvinism apart from the terms that "T.U.L.I.P." stands for and most of them have a distorted understanding of what those terms mean and nearly all of them have never bothered to think through what the logical implications of those doctrine are. They merely and simply believe that man is "Totally Depraved" and that God predestined everything. They don't think through what that means in regards to the principles of justice, they just believe it because their pastor spouts it from the pulpit and even the pastor himself believes it because his pastor before him spouted it from the pulpit. They believe that stuff and still understand that God is somehow just - really just not some convoluted redefinition of the term like AMR and Nang believe in - they believe that God really does love them and are completely oblivious to the fact that much of what they believe is in contradiction to that notion. In short, in spite of having a lot of doctrinal issues wrong, they still know who God is; they still believe that God really did become a man and that He really did die on the cross for them because He really does love them. AMR and Nang believe none of these things. Their Greek version of God isn't even capable of such things.


Oh yes! By all means, godrulz! Let's not become too radical in our pursuit of the truth and in our defense of the character of the God who died for us. That would be unthinkable! Tolerating those who make God out to be an unjust cosmic bully, that's far more preferable.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Thank you!

 

[Philetus]

I believe this is true, if we are committed to faith in Jesus Christ and receive the Grace of the Holy Spirit, we can achieve salvation.

If God only loved the best minds and greatest intellectuals, heaven would be more a MENSA for theologians. Most Christians follow the Bible, but leave exegesis to ministers and many good people of average intelligence, I am convinced have a leg up on being like little children in the sight of God

:thumb:
Mensa ... had to look that one up.

God save the :king:

P

 

[godrulz]

If only Open Theists are saved, there will be lots of room in heaven. I don't appreciate beloved and others saying I am not Christian because I am not Calvinistic (turns it into a cult), so I think we are overstating the case if we think our narrow understanding on controversial issues is the ticket to heaven. Despite Piper's Calvinism, he has a heart for missions and God. We are not talking about Mormons vs Christians, but different views within historical Christianity that have been debated for centuries.

 

[Clete]

If only Open Theists are saved, there will be lots of room in heaven.

No one has ever suggested that only Open Theists are saved.

But even if they had this is an appeal to consequences fallacy.

I don't appreciate beloved and others saying I am not Christian because I am not Calvinistic (turns it into a cult), so I think we are overstating the case if we think our narrow understanding on controversial issues is the ticket to heaven.

I agree with you completely.

Despite Piper's Calvinism, he has a heart for missions and God.

You do not know Piper's heart.

We are not talking about Mormons vs Christians, but different views within historical Christianity that have been debated for centuries.

No kidding.

It may well be that AMR and Nang will both yet be saved in spite of their willfully blasphemous doctrine. I'm the one who believes in OSAS, remember? But whether or not they make it to heaven by the skin of their teeth is another issue altogether. The fact remains that the god they worship today is not the God of Scripture and thus as of right now, they are unbelievers and enemies of the gospel.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

Are some or many Calvinists saved? Are Reformed Baptists going to hell while Arminian Baptists going to heaven?

I imagine you also think all Catholics are going to hell? Pentecostals? Me?

 

[Philetus]

If only Open Theists are saved, there will be lots of room in heaven. I don't appreciate beloved and others saying I am not Christian because I am not Calvinistic (turns it into a cult), so I think we are overstating the case if we think our narrow understanding on controversial issues is the ticket to heaven. Despite Piper's Calvinism, he has a heart for missions and God. We are not talking about Mormons vs Christians, but different views within historical Christianity that have been debated for centuries.

An Open Letter to my friend GR:

I didn't hear anything like "only Open Theists are saved" in Clete's long post. Is that what you heard me say? Come on GR. Tulip sucks and you know it. It goes to the very heart of soteriology. Still, we’re not debating anyone’s salvation (at least I’m not) just their sanity.

Want to do a little self examination 'within historical Christianity'? Read Frank Viola and George Barna's Pagan Christianity? and then pat yourself on the backside for your brave venture into Open Theism like we've made some great stride in theological reform. Our work is cut out for us. We haven't scratched the surface. There is still so much theological BS going on here to preserve our traditions that it makes me sick because I'm as much a part of the problem as anyone, still struggling with historical churchianity.

Clete's post was absolutely on target. I hope some day when such corrective insight is directed toward his own blind-residual-thinking on other matters, he will be really Open and not receive the kind of cowering from his fellows dished out here.

I love the two of you more than I can express and continue to appreciate your passion for honesty and truth. I'm enriched beyond measure; set free in ways you may never know. I owe so much to you and Clete.

Press on. I miss your teeth!
Alway your friend and brother,
Philetus

 

[Philetus]

Are some or many Calvinists saved?

48% I guess you could say that is some or many depending on your theology. But according to Barna thats a lot fewer than it use to be. So I guess, now, deflowered Calvinists are just going to hell as something else. (They are dropping petals fast like an early bloom in a late frost.)

Are Reformed Baptists going to hell while Arminian Baptists going to heaven?

yep; nope; actually they go in succession and it's a wash on both buses, 50/50 from each group

I imagine you also think all Catholics are going to hell?

Nope, just one; the rest are going to purgatory for the weekend

Pentecostals?

two from the US I can think of - any from Canada?

Me?

NO! NO! Never you! But, I agree with you that the possibility (not the actuality) does still exist.



Have you forgotten this is a Theology Debate Forum which is supposed to go to hell from time to time?

:devil: :sheep:

 

[Clete]

Are some or many Calvinists saved? Are Reformed Baptists going to hell while Arminian Baptists going to heaven?

I imagine you also think all Catholics are going to hell? Pentecostals? Me?

I've already answered this.

The vast majority of those who call themselves Christian will go to heaven, regardless of what theological label they pin on their chest.

Have you actually been reading my posts or do they glaze your eyes over after about the fourth sentence?

The bottom line is that you don't get to worship just any old god you want to worship and get to go to heaven with your sins forgiven just because you happen to refer to you stone idol by the name "Jesus" or "Jehovah" or "The God of Scripture". The God you worship must actually BE the God of Scripture, you actually have to trust in the real Jesus and love the real Jehovah, the actual creator of the universe, not just some Greek god that you say created the universe.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Clete's post was absolutely on target. I hope some day when such corrective insight is directed toward his own blind-residual-thinking on other matters, he will be really Open and not receive the kind of cowering from his fellows dished out here.

I love the two of you more than I can express and continue to appreciate your passion for honesty and truth. I'm enriched beyond measure; set free in ways you may never know. I owe so much to you and Clete.

Press on. I miss your teeth!
Alway your friend and brother,
Philetus

This fascinates me!

Just what "blind-residual-thinking on other matters" do you see in me?

I seriously want to know. If there is something I need to change then I can't change it if I don't see it. Show me.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Philetus]

This fascinates me!

Just what "blind-residual-thinking on other matters" do you see in me?

I seriously want to know. If there is something I need to change then I can't change it if I don't see it. Show me.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I knew as I hit that 'submit' button that would raise more questions than I have answers or time to address right now. The point wasn't you in particular but that we all have our 'theological futures' mapped out to some degree or another and are determined to protect them. I look forward to the day when Open Theists can discus OVT among ourselves and go where we need to go with the discussion and not always be in a defensive posture with the same ol same ol. I mean; how long does it take to pluck the same five pointy petals apart with the same five flower gardeners? Their pot is over fertilized as it is and we just keep stirring in it at their bidding. (If you catch my drift.) But, Calvinism isn’t the only poop in the pot. I just think we must revisit ALL our sacred-cows and a few holy-calves in light of Open Theism. Either the beef has to die or OT needs a lot of tweaking. Either way we have our work cut out for us. (And no I’m not thinking of MAD in particular. Lordy, I hate trying to anticipate your thinking. I’m dwarfed.) Critics of OT see this ... we don't always. We get bored or just tired instead of sharper. Perhaps that day will come, maybe even here at TOL (I hope so) … I just hope when it does we won’t be so weary we only remember how to be defensive with one another. That’s all I was trying to communicate to GR!

Philetus

 

[Aletheia]

God is powerful enough to move without having to know exactly how things will go. He will win in the end. All the minutiae in between is irrelevant.

 

[Aletheia]

God is powerful enough to move without having to know exactly how things will go. He will win in the end. All the minutiae in between is irrelevant.

Nang just pos-repped me with an "Amen!" on this. Isn't she a Calvinist?:liberal:

 

[Nang]

God is powerful enough to move without having to know exactly how things will go.

God knows exactly how everything will "go." God has decreed His will and ordained the performance of achieving His will.

He will win in the end.

Absolutely, God's will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. No question!

Nang

 

[godrulz]

God knows exactly how everything will "go." God has decreed His will and ordained the performance of achieving His will.




Absolutely, God's will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. No question!

Nang

The prayer is for God's will to be done, but it is not always done (hence the need for the prayer). There is a warfare motif in Scripture, not your blueprint model. Satan and sinners oppose the will of God. They cannot overthrow Him, but they can thwart His perfect will in their lives (Lk. 7:30; Matthew 23:37; Jn. 5:4; Acts 7:51).

 

[Lighthouse]

God knows exactly how everything will "go." God has decreed His will and ordained the performance of achieving His will.

You need to learn to read.

He said that God doesn't need to know, indicating that God does not know. And since he's an open theist, he obviously doesn't beleive that God knows.

Absolutely, God's will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. No question!

Nang

At least we agree that He will win.

 

[Nang]

The prayer is for God's will to be done, but it is not always done (hence the need for the prayer).

This is not petitionary prayer; it is confession of fact, and it was made by the Son of God, Himself to give us example of how and what to pray.

There is a warfare motif in Scripture, not your blueprint model.

That sentence means absolutely nothing.

Satan and sinners oppose the will of God.

Yes, opposing the will of God is called "sin." The opposite of sin is "faith." That is why Christians pray in faith by confessing the fact that "God's will be done."

They cannot overthrow Him, but they can thwart His perfect will in their lives (Lk. 7:30; Matthew 23:37; Jn. 5:4; Acts 7:51).

But the will of God is that they reject God's will, lest they believe. That is called "reprobation." (Isaiah 6:9&10).

These reject God's will in their lives, which is the will of God. These do not "thwart" God's will in heaven and earth, though. "God's will be done," despite their resistance and rejection of His revealed will.

So, Satan and sinners are not thwarting the will of God. It is impossible that creatures might prevent the will of God being perfectly accomplised. They actually are fulfilling their role in the purposes and good pleasure of Sovereign God.

"The Lord has made all for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom." Proverbs 16:4

Nang

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

There is a warfare motif in Scripture, not your blueprint model.

I will take the sovereign plan of God over your warfare model and its Hollywood implications.

 

[Ktoyou]

I will take the sovereign plan of God over your warfare model and its Hollywood implications.

Evil cosmoc demons dsirupting God’s plan seems demeaning to the soverenty of God. I have always thought this idea of demon power is a bit far fetched and intercepts our own responcilility to God. Sin is within us until we receive Grace from God.

 

[godrulz]

I will take the sovereign plan of God over your warfare model and its Hollywood implications.

God does have a sovereign plan, but it is not revealed as a blueprint. Daniel 10 is an e.g. of spiritual warfare as are the Gospels and Acts.

Nang: The Lord does not delight in the death of the wicked. He is not desiring anyone to perish. You and Calvin make the mistake of thinking God's will is the only will in the universe. It is not, by His sovereign will. There is much more complexity than Job's Comforter's simplistic worldview that impugns the character of God.

Keep in mind it is not a Star Wars dualism of equals....hence no compromise of sovereignty (which is providential, not pan/omnicausal). The victory is assured and will be achieved...the kingdom is now, but not yet.