ARCHIVE: Free From Sin - 1 John

[Charity]

Sin is our motive; sins are the fruit of our motives.

It was motives and guilt that drove those who put Christ to death on the cross

As when we think others are bringing what we believe down we sort to accuse them.

He has removed sin (motives) from the world at his death; that we are not held to our own law of right and wrong; for even as the Jews felt that under Moses law they were right, they were found very wrong.

We are commanded to obey Grace; or we shall not see eternal life.
That we should not rely on our own version of right and wrong, but always offer grace; that we will not be given the measuring stick that we have used on others, in our own self willed learnt idea of Good and evil.

If your motives become pure, whatever you do is not counted against you as sin.
Taking every thought captive; you are what you are to be transformed to the Image of the father and the son.
God looks upon the hearts of man, actions are judged according to a unrighteous decieved heart relying on itself for direction.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Why is Knight not a Christ-hating, worse than Hitler person for questioning sozo's view on sinless perfection?

Let me make sure you understand that I agree with Sozo that a Christian cannot lose their salvation.

Every and any sin they commit is already paid for. And if your view is that your sins aren't paid for... well... well... how can you be a Christian? A Christian is someone who has acknowledged that Christ's work was sufficient. And there is nothing they can add to it.

Where I and Sozo differ in opinion could be considered semantics by some. Sozo takes one definition of sin and applies it in every way ignoring other contextual definitions of sin.

So while I disagree with his dogmatic stance "Christians cannot sin" I agree with his overriding theology that Christ's work on the cross was payment in full for those that accept it.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Let me make sure you understand that I agree with Sozo that a Christian cannot lose their salvation.

Matt 5:13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men..."

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Matt 5:13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men..."

The Jews could lose their salvation!

Always make sure you are reading your own mail and not someone else's.

 

[Ecumenicist]

The Jews could lose their salvation!

Always make sure you are reading your own mail and not someone else's.

???

Matt 4:24and his fame went forth to all Syria, and they brought to him all having ailments, pressed with manifold sicknesses and pains, and demoniacs, and lunatics, and paralytics, and he healed them.

25And there followed him many multitudes from Galilee, and Decapolis, and Jerusalem, and Judea, and beyond the Jordan.

Matt 5:1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:

Sounds like all kinds of folks were gathered around, including his disciples.

This explains alot. I pray that one day you find joy in knowing that the Beatitudes apply to you as well...

Dave

 

[godrulz]

Let me make sure you understand that I agree with Sozo that a Christian cannot lose their salvation.

Every and any sin they commit is already paid for. And if your view is that your sins aren't paid for... well... well... how can you be a Christian? A Christian is someone who has acknowledged that Christ's work was sufficient. And there is nothing they can add to it.

Where I and Sozo differ in opinion could be considered semantics by some. Sozo takes one definition of sin and applies it in every way ignoring other contextual definitions of sin.

So while I disagree with his dogmatic stance "Christians cannot sin" I agree with his overriding theology that Christ's work on the cross was payment in full for those that accept it.

OSAS is not a condition of eternal life. If it was, most Arminians, Pentecostals, Open Theists, Wesleyans, hundreds of millions of believers, etc. would not be saved. We would be left with Calvinists (many of whom are not saved) and some TOL people.

You at least see that the so-called 'circumcision' could lose salvation, so you understand the theoretical concept/possibility at least for one dispensation after the resurrection of Christ (strikes me as odd since God, sin, relationship, holiness, etc. do not differ that radically just because one was an ethnic Jew vs an ethnic Gentile?!).

I also agree with an unlimited vs limited 'atonement'. Christ's sacrifice is once for all and efficacious for all who believe. The Commercial Transaction Theory/literal payment is Anselmian and logically leads to universalism. Payment is one of many metaphors for salvation (cf. born again) that expresses spiritual truth, but not a wooden literalism. As an Open Theist, you should agree that future sins are not there yet. They may or may not happen, so I take exception saying they are forgiven before we are born or before they are a reality. At conversion, our past sins are totally forgiven. There is provision for future sin (I Jn. 1:9), just as effective as for our past sins. Christ's work is sufficient. There is nothing we can add to it. Receiving Him by faith is not a work. Receiving forgiveness as we repent is not a work. The Bible talks about forgiveness of actual sin, not theoretical, non-existent future sin. If there is blanket forgiveness at conversion, then there is no logical reason to not sin or to stop sinning since it is automatically forgiven. Does the Bible really teach forgiveness of unrepentant sin and rebellion? This sounds like license and antinomianism to me. There is another sense where is blood continually cleanses us from sin. One sin will not cause us to lose salvation. His finished work is effective, we are in Him, but the lapse should still be dealt with. The sin of godless unbelief is different. It is tantamount to the unpardonable sin. I cannot see where Scripture teaches that unbelief is forgiven just because someone once believed. If someone rejects the person and work of Christ, whether they once accepted it or not, then they are an unbeliever outside of Him, in whom is eternal life.

I was confused about some of your ideas. They sound like sozo on one hand, but semantically different on the other hand.

I may not be expressing or understanding my own view perfectly, but I do not mean to deny His perfect, finished work. We cannot add to it and it is once for all. I agree that His objective work must be subjectively appropriated at conversion and subsequent to conversion. John wrote to believers and urged them to not sin. But IF we believers sin, we have an advocate...He is faithful and just to forgive, but there is still the condition of confession, repentance, and return to loving obedience. I have not worked out all the details, since one sin does not sever our relationship (persistent unbelief could). Perhaps it is an intimacy issue as I have said before. We are even to confess our sins to one another to be healed (James...I realize your Mid-Acts view here also).

 

[elected4ever]

godrulz

OSAS is not a condition of eternal life. If it was, most Arminians, Pentecostals, Open Theists, Wesleyans, hundreds of millions of believers, etc. would not be saved.

Your finally getting the picture.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

???

Matt 4:24and his fame went forth to all Syria, and they brought to him all having ailments, pressed with manifold sicknesses and pains, and demoniacs, and lunatics, and paralytics, and he healed them.

25And there followed him many multitudes from Galilee, and Decapolis, and Jerusalem, and Judea, and beyond the Jordan.

Matt 5:1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:

Sounds like all kinds of folks were gathered around, including his disciples.

This explains alot. I pray that one day you find joy in knowing that the Beatitudes apply to you as well...

Dave

And I pray that one day you will learn to rightly divide the word of truth.

 

[Lighthouse]

Crimes are crimes.

If certain governments are too stupid to acknowledge certain crimes that doesn't make the act any less criminal.

If there is no law against it, it isn't a crime. Whether or not it should be is beside the point. If there is no law against it, it is not a crime. Sin is transgression of the law, and Christians are not under the law. We are free from sin. We are dead to sin. If it is no longer counted as sin, why call it sin?

You claim that Christians are not sinners, so why do you insist we sin? We are not identified as sinners, because we are not condemned for sin, so why identify the actions as sin?

 

[godrulz]

godrulz Your finally getting the picture.

Huh? I have always said it is possible to be a Christian and hold differing views on the perseverance of the saints/OSAS. You are not saying that I have to believe OSAS to be saved? I know I am saved and have no inclination to become an apostate, but I will not give false assurance to apostates just because they once said a prayer in the past.

 

[godrulz]

If there is no law against it, it isn't a crime. Whether or not it should be is beside the point. If there is no law against it, it is not a crime. Sin is transgression of the law, and Christians are not under the law. We are free from sin. We are dead to sin. If it is no longer counted as sin, why call it sin?

You claim that Christians are not sinners, so why do you insist we sin? We are not identified as sinners, because we are not condemned for sin, so why identify the actions as sin?

If a tribe condones murder and cannibalism, it does not change the nature of their sin or the moral law of God. Just because humans do not have a law does not mean that God's laws are not written in stone and in our hearts. I think you are confusing truths about initial justification with experiences subsequent to salvation (check the context of proof texts).

 

[elected4ever]

Huh? I have always said it is possible to be a Christian and hold differing views on the perseverance of the saints/OSAS. You are not saying that I have to believe OSAS to be saved? I know I am saved and have no inclination to become an apostate, but I will not give false assurance to apostates just because they once said a prayer in the past.

If you are saved you know by revelation. There is no possibility to be confused about the issue. You ether believe the Gospel or you do not. You cannot have it your way. Salvation is nether worked for to be received or maintained with some maintenance program.

Galatians 3:1 *¶O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 *This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 *Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 *Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

 

[godrulz]

If you are saved you know by revelation. There is no possibility to be confused about the issue. You ether believe the Gospel or you do not. You cannot have it your way. Salvation is nether worked for to be received or maintained with some maintenance program.

Galatians 3:1 *¶O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 *This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 *Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 *Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

The Galatians heresy is faith + works or faith and a false gospel. It is not a context about eternal security, perseverance of the saints, or continuance in biblical faith to death.

Believers have assurance from the Holy Spirit that they are children of God. Believers are secure in Christ. Unbelievers or apostates do not have this assurance. They are not in Christ. The question is if one can revert to unbelief after once knowing the truth (Heb. 6:4-6). There is no biblical or anecdotal reason to deny the possibility of falling away.

 

[Daniel50]

Believers have assurance from the Holy Spirit that they are children of God. Believers are secure in Christ.

I agree this point.

Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

 

[elected4ever]

The Galatians heresy is faith + works or faith and a false gospel. It is not a context about eternal security, perseverance of the saints, or continuance in biblical faith to death.

Believers have assurance from the Holy Spirit that they are children of God. Believers are secure in Christ. Unbelievers or apostates do not have this assurance. They are not in Christ. The question is if one can revert to unbelief after once knowing the truth (Heb. 6:4-6). There is no biblical or anecdotal reason to deny the possibility of falling away.

Hebrews 5:12 *For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. Every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe, but strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. This will we do, if God permit. Because it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 *If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

That is saying that it is imposable to go back and do again that which has already been done. The foundation has already been laid and you cannot relay it.. We can reteach the basic doctrines but we cannot relay the foundation. Once the foundation is laid it is done. We then build on the foundation. It has nothing to do with losing one's salvation. You cannot renew the foundation. The foundation is Christ Jesus. Jesus is a permanent foundation. Are you trying to say that Jesus is an insufficient foundation on which to build our lives?

 

[godrulz]

Many commentators see the foundational, doctrinal list as Judaistic teachings, the shadow/type of the reality in Christ. Christ is the foundation we build on. I am not sure which verses you are quoting or misquoting. Heb. 6:4-6 is a warning about apostasy, those who returned to Judaism and its shadow while rejecting the reality of Christ they once embraced. The stern warning is for Jewish Christians to not return to animal sacrifices, etc. and to not renounce Christ and His finished work. If they do, they will fall away and be lost.

 

[elected4ever]

Many commentators see the foundational, doctrinal list as Judaistic teachings, the shadow/type of the reality in Christ. Christ is the foundation we build on. I am not sure which verses you are quoting or misquoting. Heb. 6:4-6 is a warning about apostasy, those who returned to Judaism and its shadow while rejecting the reality of Christ they once embraced. The stern warning is for Jewish Christians to not return to animal sacrifices, etc. and to not renounce Christ and His finished work. If they do, they will fall away and be lost.

You are blind. To HELL with your commentators. Can you read in context. This teaching is about our learning and not about losing salvation. The writer was addressing weak Christians that had not matured in the faith. Not salvation. What was possible and what was not possible to do.

 

[Turbo]

Sozo, I cringe I hear (or read) a Christian calling himself a sinner because in the Bible God tends to identify people as either sinners or righteous. Those who are in Christ are identified with Him, and therefore God does not look upon us as sinners but as righteous, because He sees Christ's righteousness.

Sometimes I just let it go, recognizing that the person is using the word sinner to mean "one who thinks or does something ungodly at times" and not "one who has rejected God and His grace." The word sinner have a range of meaning and the specific meaning of a word depends on its context. For instance Paul wrote (quoting the Psalmist) that "There is none righteous, no, not one." In the context that Paul was speaking, it would be therefore proper to say that all are sinners.

But whenever I do speak up about it, I always explain myself as I have in the first paragraph of this post. I don't just proclaim "Christians are not sinners!!" If I did, surely many people would misunderstand me, thinking that I'm saying that Christians never do anything ungodly. And what would that accomplish?


Do you realize that Elohiym (for example) also asserts that Christians cannot sin, but that he means something completely different than you do? He believes that if a Christian does something ungodly, that it is evidence that that person was never actually a Christian (i.e. is not saved) to begin with. And when you insist that Christians cannot sin, many people think you are saying what Elohiym says.

Knight has pointed out that the word sin has a range of meaning not just in our culture but within the Bible itself. So what's to be gained by narrowing the definition and blasting anyone who doesn't do likewise? It seems to me that it just creates confusion and can even create an unnecessary stumbling block for the lost.

 

[elected4ever]

Turbo, Have you read the discushion I had with Knight concerning sin and the translation of the word sin in 1Cor 8: 12?

 

[elected4ever]

The post #s are 32, 35, 36, 37 & 39. on this tread.