It's sad ...
It's sad ...
Hi Scrimshaw,
Originally posted by Hilston:
So would you say then that the fool described in Prov. 26:4,5 recognizes his own folly and is just trying to get the other person to behave foolishly, too?
You write:
It seems silly then, and hardly worthy of Biblical prescription. Do you know of any examples of this in scripture, i.e. where a fool is acting goofy and just trying to get God's people to act goofy, too?
Scrimshaw writes:
... but let's cut to the chase on this point.
I did. That's why I want you to prove your interpretation of the Proverbs passage.
Scrimshaw writes:
You are using this passage to say that Bob is answering Zakath according to his folly.
Correction: I am citing the passage to show that Bob is
incorrectly answering Zakath according to his folly.
Scrimshaw writes:
The biggest problem with your argument on this point is Romans 1 does not state there are no atheists.
It doesn't have to say the words "There are no atheists" to make its case, no less than the Bible must necessarily say, "God is a Trinity" in order to makes it case. So if you have a big problem with some as easily shown as the myth of atheism, what do you do with a more difficult, but nonetheless vital point such as the Trinity? Why are you so eager to side with the anti-theists and grant them their excuse?
Scrimshaw writes:
In fact, I quoted for you a verse in Psalms that outright states that there can be those who disbelieve in God. So your argument has been refuted.
Your simplisitic quoting of verses doesn't get you anywhere. You have to make your case. Of course the Bible talks about unbelievers. But that's not the same as not knowing God exists. The demons are unbelievers, but they believe in the existence of God. Surely you know this.
Scrimshaw previously wrote:
No, Zakath's folly is his claim that there isn't sufficient evidence for belief in God. The only way that Bob could be responding WITH that same folly is if Bob's response ALSO stated that there "isn't sufficient evidence for belief in God".
I replied:
Really? Then the verse is really meaningless, because that isn't an answer. There's no point of contention there; it's mere agreement. Your manure bag example was much better.
Scrimshaw writes:
Actually there is a point of contention here, because you think that Zakath's manure bag is also the fact that he claims to be an "atheist".
I'm not talking about my view of this, I'm talking about yours. Of course, there's a point of contention on MY view. But your perception of the verse collapses to inanity.
Scrimshaw writes:
The only way the claim of atheism can be considered a manure bag is if Romans 1 had stated that there is no such thing as atheists, or those who disbelieve in God. Romans 1 never said that.
It does say it, both directly and by implication. Consider a later verse in the same context:
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Hater of whom? Knowing the judgment of whom?
Jim's analogy regarding the sufficiency of God's testimony:
Let's say you and a colleague are both professors of economics. You've taught your class the evils of deficit spending. You've tested them on it, and they all passed with flying colors. You're an excellent instructor. Your colleague agrees, and often praises you at department meetings for your thoroughness and the sufficiency of your teaching. One of your students, who earned perfect score on the test, who answers questions intelligently in class, and who enjoys flaunting her knowledge about whatever subject you are teaching on, doesn't like you. She overhears your colleague speaking highly of you. She decides to complain that you did not teach it very well, and claims to not understand the subject at all. He asks her what she earned on the test, and she lies, saying that she flunked the test. Your friend checks the records, and sees that she actually got a perfect score on th test. Your friend later overhears the student giggling among her friends about how she was able to trash Mr. Scrimshaw to one of his colleagues. Given the above, what would you think of your colleague if you were to walk into a classroom and witness him trying to teach her everything you have already taught her? How meaningful are your colleague's words about your ability to sufficiently teach your students if he so readily tries to improve upon the job you know has already been sufficiently accomplished?
Scrimshaw writes:
Here's why your analogy fails to apply to the atheism - all disbelievers in god are not necessarily deceiving, but have been DECIEVED into disbelieving. Deceived by false arguments. Deceived by the institutions of humanistic philosophy and naturalism, etc.
Oh, I see. It's not their fault. They were just duped. It was nothing deliberate or rebellious on their part, right?
wrong.
Scrimshaw writes:
Your analogy simply characterizes the student as being intentionally deceptive, when in reality, atheists are many times the product of deception.
You're simply wrong, and you continue to prove to me the danger of the lie you are promoting. The Bible calls them God haters, enemies of the cross. You call them the poor hapless products of deception. You've been deceived yourself.
Scrimshaw writes:
But back to the main point......Bob has not conceded there isn't sufficient evidence for belief in God. He has only conceded that Zakath possesses a deluded perception of the evidence. Bob's goal is to dismantled Zakath's deluded perception of the evidence and expose the false arguments that Zakath is advocating to justify his disbelief in God. It's that simple.
Sorry, Scrimshaw, it doesn't fly. Bob Enyart is
supporting Zakath's perceptions by buying into the charade that Zakath has justifiable grounds from which to evaluate the evidence. He doesn't. On Zakath's worldview, nothing coheres. It's all sound and fury signifiying nothing, and this is what needs to be exposed. Not that Zakath is rejecting evidence. That's a given. On what God-less basis does he even presume to evaluate evidence? That's the folly of the fool.
Jim previously asked:
Do you believe that an atheist truly doesn't believe in God, Scrimshaw? If so, why, in your opinion, do they not believe in God?
Scrimshaw writes:
I believe that many athests truly do not believe in God because they have been DECEIVED by false arguments, and false perceptions of the evidence in the universe.
The Bible disagrees with you. It calls them enemies of Christ and God-haters. The deception is self-delusion, deliberate and willful rejection of the truth.
Jim previously asked:
Why are they without excuse?
Scrimshaw writes:
There is never an *excuse* for believing in a lie.
Even if one is "deceived" into believing the lie?
Scrimshaw writes:
But that doesn't mean there isn't REASONS for why people believe in lies. An "excuse" implies a justification for the action. A reason, on the other hand, is simply an neutral fact ...
There are no neutral facts, Scrimshaw. You continue to affirm what I've been saying all along.
Previously quoted:
John 17:25 - "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me." \
Jim wrote:
What a perfect verse, Scrimshaw. Jesus gives a characteristic description of a collective order, namely that this collective rejects the experiential knowing (ginosko) of the Father of Israel, yet they experientially know (ginosko) that the Father sent Him. It shows both their knowledge that Jesus came from the Father (and by implication, knowledge of the Father) and of their deliberate rejection of the Father, i.e. a refusal to acknowledge their experiential knowledge of Him.
Scrimshaw writes:
Actually, the verse says nothing about them "rejecting" the knowledge. That's a word you are adding to the text. It says the world does not KNOW (ginosko) the Father, who is God. That means that they do not possess "experiential knowledge" of God the Father.
Scrimshaw, the
must have had it in order to reject it and to be regarded as not having ginosko. Because the ginosko knowledge is made plain to them. That's what Romans 1 is saying. They see it, know it, understand it, then push it away from them, suppressing it in unrighteousness.
Scrimshaw writes: - - And Paul also agrees with Jesus, and says -
1 Corinthians 1:20, 21 - "Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe."
Regarding the above verse, Jim wrote:
This verse is not stating the world did not know about God, Scrimshaw. It's saying that the world did not know Him experientially through their own wisdom.
Scrimshaw writes:
If the world didn't know Him experientially through it's wisdom, how else could it have known Him?
Read Romans 1:19-32. It tells you how: The knowledge of God does not come from the wisdom of men. God manifests Himself to them, within them and without. In every facet of their daily experience. They cannot escape Him.
Jim previously wrote:
When you say "Everyone in the world does not necessarily know about God," you've granted them an excuse. How can God hold them responsible for sinning against Him if they don't know about Him?
Scrimshaw writes:
No, it isn't an "excuse". It is a FACT. Jesus plainly stated that the world does not have knowledge of God.
It is an excuse. You are giving them a pass because you somehow refuse to admit that God has done a sufficient job in manifesting Himself to them. You continue to affirm what I've been saying, and in the process, you work in the so-called atheist's behalf.
Scrimshaw writes:
And here are more verses that prove the knowledge of God is conditional, not all-encompassing:
Who ever said the knowledge of God isn't conditional or is all-encompassing?
Scrimshaw writes:
Psalms 36:10 - "Continue your love to those who know you, your righteousness to the upright in heart." Here, David reveals that "those" who know God are a select group.
This verse does not say there are atheists. Knowing God is a term/description of intimacy. Surely you know this. Those who do not know God are not atheists. Those who are unbelievers are not atheists. They are rebels, enemies, God-haters. The more I think about it, the more ludicrous it is that you are so tenaciously defending them. Romans says they have no defense (anapologetic), and here you are attempting to do just that.
Scrimshaw writes:
John 17:3 - "Now this is eternal life: that they may know (ginosko) you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." Here, Jesus states that the knowledge ("ginosko") of God is conditional to eternal life. Certainly you do not believe that everyone on the planet has eternal life, do you???
Those who do not know God (i.e. have rejected ginosko knowledge) do not have eternal life. That doesn't mean they're atheists.
Scrimshaw writes:
The point is, the Bible is very clear that there are many who do not have knowledge ("ginosko") or ("eido") of God, for whatever reason. So the Bible does not deny that atheism exists. It simply says there is no *excuse* for it.
The verses I've quoted show that your reasoning is faulty. The knowledge of God is plainly manifested to them, within them, around them, and that is rejected by the rebels who nonetheless know He exists and that they are accountable to Him. Even after God has given them over to a reprobate mind, they are still described as God haters. That is not the description of an atheist. There's no such thing.
Scrimshaw writes: - - It is incorrect because it falsely claims that there is not sufficient evidence for belief in God. That's it. - -
Jim previously wrote:
So how do go about disabusing Zakath of that false claim? Show him the evidence that should have been sufficient, but for some reason wasn't?
Scrimshaw writes:
You handle it by debunking the false excuses he gives in his efforts to justify his claim that the evidence isn't sufficient.
That's not what the evidentialist does. The evidentialist rather buys into his excuses and tries to better convince him that the evidence says something that the gainsayer refuses to acknowledge. What must be exposed is their inability to even evaluate, let alone justifiably reject, whatever evidence is presented before them.
Scrimshaw writes:
That is the appropriate logic.
It's not appropriate. It is unbiblical, and therefore not logical.
Scrimshaw writes:
The problem with your logic is you are overlooking the power that deceptive arguments can have over the human mind.
Not at all. In fact, the biblical view perfectly accommodates the power of deception. The evidentialist view tries to undo deception, not willing to admit that the deception is deliberate and willful, and therefore inexcusable. On your view, their hapless victims of deception. That's not biblical, Scrimshaw.
Scrimshaw writes:
Atheism is a belief system based on deceptive arguments. It is our job to expose those deceptive arguments.
The way you propose to do it exposes nothing. Rather, it buys into the very deception we're talking about.
1 Cor 10:5 - "We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."
You don't demolish arguments and pretense by joining in on the false argumentation and pretense. Atheism is a pretense, Scrimshaw. By affirming it and not exposing it as a myth, you've done very little to demolish it. Taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ is not arguing "a rock cannot create itself, and a fire cannot burn forever." It's not arguing that a "wise powerful creator thing or things" is/are behind the irreducible complexity of the natural order. It's rather saying that Jesus Christ, the Creator and Sustainor of all things, demands your life and will grind you to powder if you do not repent of the lies you've chosen to believe and espouse.
Jim previously asked: [i\So then afterward, when he says, "Sorry, still not good enough." What do you do then?
Scrimshaw writes:
You move on, and allow the Holy Spirit to act upon the seeds you planted in that individual's heart and mind.
The "seeds" planted in the evidentialists case become weeds when the anti-theist's worldview has not been sufficiently dismantled and demolished.
Jim previously wrote:
Do you believe that Zakath, prior to this debate, had been given sufficient evidence of God's existence and his accountability to Him? Perhaps we're not agreeing on the word "sufficient"? ("Adequate to accomplish a purpose or to meet a need").
Scrimshaw writes:
The evidence itself is sufficient, but again, deception takes what has been made known and obfuscates it. Deception distorts truth.
Scrimshaw writes:
Satan has taken the evidences of Creation which are sufficient for belief, and twisted them around so that people come to false conclusions and disbelieve in a Creator.
Really? So the anti-theist, when faced with God in judgment, can say: "It's not my fault. I was deceived by Satan." God will say, "No, because ___________(please_fill_in_the_blank)________." It's a sad view that Satan is more effective with his deception than God is with His existence.
Scrimshaw writes:
Just as Jesus responded to satan's misuse of scripture WITH the *correct* use of scripture, so too, we respond to the atheist's false logic WITH the *correct* use of logic. We lay bare the atheist's false excuses.
But you don't. You buy into them. You've spent a good portion of your post removing their culpability and excusing them for being victims of deception. I know you're going to say that they don't have an excuse. I don't see how. That's like saying a convicted pedophile was deceived into becoming a pedophile and can't help himself and therefore should not be executed.
Jim previously asked:
[Romans 1] says they hold the truth about God, they understand, and they suppress it. You disagree with that?
Scrimshaw writes:
Paul was addressing the condition of mankind in general, and how man has apostasized since the creation of the world. You can't take sweeping generalities like this and think it applies to every individual case. ...
So are you saying it's not always true? So there are actually some people who have an excuse? You serve the so-called atheists well, Scrimshaw.
Scrimshaw writes:
We know that the text doesn't literally mean "ALL" men know God, for there are plenty of other scriptures that indicate that many men do NOT know God
If that's really what you believe, then why don't you just state it baldly: Some people have an excuse for their atheism.
Scrimshaw writes:
Jer 10:25 - Pour out Your fury on the nations who do not know You, and on the families who do not call on Your name; ....
Why would families call on God if they don't know a God exists? Do you see how your sloppy citations don't help your case, Scrimshaw?
Jim previously asked:
Would you grant that Zakath has made some OK defenses of his self-professed atheism at any point in the debate? I don't think he has, but I'm wondering if you think Zakath has scored any "hits"?
Scrimshaw writes:
In some small semantical ways, yes.
You've just made the most anti-biblical admission thus far, which further proves the error of your position, and affirms that you tacitly side with the anti-theist by arguing this way.
Scrimshaw writes:
You are correct that there is no need of providing further EVIDENCE. However, there is a need to refute the false excuses.
To which I replied:
Gosh -- I totally agree. How would you propose those be dealt with?
Scrimshaw writes:
We deal with it the way Bob is - exposing WHY the excuses are false.
Why are the excuses false, Scrimshaw?
Scrimshaw previously wrote:
... There is a need to clarify the evidence that the atheists distort.
Jim previously responded:
Ack! Not at all! See, this is the error of evidentialism. The atheist has no grounds upon which to evaluate evidence. They must borrow from the Christian worldview in order to make any sense of their experience, and this should be exposed. We cannot allow them to unwarrantedly borrow tools from the Christian worldview (logic, reason, science, sense data, etc.)
Scrimshaw writes:
I don't think that is a very good argument because logic, reason, science, etc., predate Christianity by thousands of years. The Greecian, Eyptian, and Roman empires made massive inroads in all of those categories, and they certainly were not Christian. The Roman empire christianized, but not until near the very end of it's rule.
Are you sure you're not a plant. That is
exactly what atheist's say! Look at Aussie Thinker statement that is almost word-for-word.
Scrimshaw writes:
Knowledge is accumulative, and to claim that all knowledge, logic, and reason is owned by a singular worldview is the epitome of ignorance. Sorry. Bad argument there.
Spoken like a true evidentialist. On your view, atheists have as much a legitimate claim upon knowledge, logic, reason, and science as Christians. It's sickening.
Scrimshaw quoted Psalms - 78:21 "When the LORD heard them, he was very angry; his fire broke out against Jacob, and his wrath rose against Israel, for they did not believe in God or trust in his deliverance."
Jim asked:
Was everyone in Israel, without exception, an atheist?
Scrimshaw writes:
No, but there obviously were SOME atheists in Israel, or else the verse would make no sense.
The verse makes perfect sense if there are not such thing as atheists, and since the verse is not describing atheism, but rather rebellion, stiffneckedness, and sinful defiance.
Scrimshaw quotes Gal 4:8 - "Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods."
Jim previously wrote: Notice the word for "know" here is not "ginosko" (to know based on personal experience -- the Romans 1 kind of "know"), but rather "eido", knowledge that is conceptualized, seen in one's mental perception. In other words, while possessing ginosko/experience-based knowledge of God, the anti-theist hates Him, holding the truth, understanding it, yet suppressing it.
Scrimshaw writes:
No, your argument is terminally flawed because In John 17:25, Jesus uses the word ("ginosko") when he said the world does not know God the Father.
And as I explained, that is an expression of their rejection of the ginosko knowledge that they were given, which is what Romans 1 teaches.
Scrimshaw writes:
So your argument regarding the distinction between ("eido") and ("ginosko") is bunk.
It's sad to see a Christian do such violence and to so patently disregard the details of God's word. Consider John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know (eido) me, nor my Father: if ye had known (eido) me, ye should have known (eido) my Father also.
and John 8:55 Yet ye have not known (ginosko) him; but I know (eido) him: and if I should say, I know (eido) him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know (eido) him, and keep his saying.
Is Jesus affirming that these were atheists? Not at all, but rather, they chose to reject and push away the experiential knowledge that they had. The result is the idolatry, worship of a false god, and the loss of the eido (clear mental perception) knowledge of God. But these are not atheists. They still know God exists, and according to Romans 1, they hate Him (how can they hate that which they do not believe to exist?).
Jim