Anybody know much about Islam?

[lifeisgood]

Jesus said if he be lifted up he would draw all men unto himself. Muslims who submit to the way of peace, which is most of them, rather than find justification in ancient writings for violence, are submitting to the Prince of Peace, who rose on the 3rd day, shed the Holy Spirit abroad on the 50th day, and has been knocking on the doors of people's hearts to this day, though they probably don't realize it's Jesus.

So are you as a Muslim advocating that Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary is the ONLY way accepted by the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Your view of Islam is similar to ISIS', and just as perverted.

Sorry to disagree with you Krsto, but you are going against Mohammad's instructions, and were your prophet Mohammad alive today, he would order that your head be separated from your torso, for you would be considered to be an infidel, per his belief.

A joint church/mosque would be a great way for Muslims to learn about their prophet Jesus from those of us who have had a lot of experience with Him, and a great way for you to learn about Mohammed.

Why don't you go to Saudi Arabia or Iran or how about Boca Raton and promote your version of Islam and come back and tell us how many joint church/mosque you built there and how far did you go into teaching that you believe in Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary as the only way to get to God the Father. (You did say that you believe that Jesus said He was going to be lifted up. If you do not know that means Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary being the ONLY way for anybody's salvation, be that person Muslim or Jew or Gentile or boy or girl or man or woman. There is no other way but Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary for anybody to be accepted into God's Kingdom.)

How about going to Mecca and building at least one (I would be happy with you building just one) church/mosque there and coming back here and letting us know how successful you were in your endeavors in perverting Islam.

And, no, the God of Islam is not the God of the Christian.

 

[Lon]

Typical.

Killing Christians, or anyone, making it against the law to be Christian or to preach Christianity is not Islamic teaching. Your view of Islam is similar to ISIS', and just as perverted. I would suggest you invite an imam to lunch and let him educate you, or I could suggest some books. As for theology, Muslims certainly have a problem with the doctrine of the trinity as being pagan but generally they are not too concerned with orthodoxy nearly as much as orthopraxy, so might be able to see my view of Christ as not being objectionable for them.

The real challenge comes with the 5 pillars of Islam. For example, I would make 5 daily prayers a prescription for their time, not a universal law for all cultures. The thing is, every position I might want to take can be supported by their own vaunted teachers, including Mohammed himself. They've had some good scholars though those aren't always the most popular. The actions of radicals does however cause them to seek different interpretations that move them in the opposite direction.

When 80% of them approve of ISIS in most areas and not significantly less otherwise, this is an accurate representation and no 'salesman' for Muslims is going to convince me to buy on 20% or less on return. I don't know the numbers, but I'd imagine 95% of Christians against killing abortion doctors in comparison. I'd say don't get sucked into Amway or any pyramid scheme because the percentage drops to 1% but it is probably too late lain: :wave: Have fun being a Muslim and trying to sell Amway. You were Unit-arian and heretical on other issues before so this all makes perfect sense to me and about what I'd expect. Heretic is as heretic does n Judges 17:6; 21:25

 

[journey]

NEVER.

That would be called chrislam, and it is an abomination unto the Lord and His sacrifice on the Cross of Calvary.

The God of the Christian is NOT the God of Islam.

Yes, the above - I agree completely.

 

[Wick Stick]

I've been doing a lot of study about Islam these last 2 years. I find the public narrative to be completely wrong and most Christians are content to just spread lies about it, never bothering to do any fact checking, just accepting anything that's negative and passing it along on their Facebook wall.

From time to time I come up with questions where I wished I had a knowledgeable person to field those questions.

Anybody here fit that bill?

Not really, but I'm an armchair expert in Ancient Near Eastern studies. If you want to know about northern Arabia in pre-Islamic (or pre-Christian) times, I can help you there.

Jarrod

 

[Eric h]

And, no, the God of Islam is not the God of the Christian.

However we juggle our beliefs about, the same God hears all our prayers. We have a duty to care for all of God's creation; and that has to mean caring for each other despite our diverse beliefs.

We must fight evil with kindness, compassion, mercy and forgiveness, and pray for our enemies as Christ taught us.

 

[journey]

However we juggle our beliefs about, the same God hears all our prayers. We have a duty to care for all of God's creation; and that has to mean caring for each other despite our diverse beliefs.

We must fight evil with kindness, compassion, mercy and forgiveness, and pray for our enemies as Christ taught us.

Part of what you say is true, but the part about praying to the same God is false. The God of Islam is with a little "g", has no son, and is fabricated (not real). The true and living God is a Holy Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit - yet the Holy Three are ONE. The god of Islam does not exist.

 

[lifeisgood]

However we juggle our beliefs about, the same God hears all our prayers. We have a duty to care for all of God's creation; and that has to mean caring for each other despite our diverse beliefs.

The above sounds to me like crislam and it is an abomination to God and His Son's sacrifice on the Cross of Calvary.

The God of the Christian is NOT the god of Islam.

Qur’an states that Allah does NOT love NON-Muslims:

Qur’an 3:31-32—Say [O Muhammad]: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.

Qur’an 30:43-45—Then turn thy face straight to the right religion before there come from Allah the day which cannot be averted; on that day they shall become separated. Whoever disbelieves, he shall be responsible for his disbelief, and whoever does good, they prepare (good) for their own souls, that He may reward those who believe and do good out of His grace; surely He does not love the unbelievers.

Although Allah is called “the Loving,” the Qur’an only means by this that Allah will love people once they believe in him AND obey his prophet.

The god of Islam has no love for sinners and unbelievers.

We must fight evil with kindness, compassion, mercy and forgiveness, and pray for our enemies as Christ taught us.

In this you are correct for Jesus said in Matthew 5:43-48:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Now, if only the god of Islam would say the same thing as the God of the Christian...

Then and ONLY then, would they be the same.

The god of Islam is NOT the God of the Christian.

 

[Krsto]

So are you as a Muslim advocating that Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary is the ONLY way accepted by the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ?

When Jesus said he would draw all men unto himself after he's crucified he was not uttering a theological statement about salvation. I'm not sure how you could possibly read that into what he said. I see it as a statement that his work of reconciliation would continue after he rose to sit at God's right hand. His shedding forth the Holy Spirit 50 days later on Pentecost was just the beginning of his invisible work. Christians want to limit that grace to him working only with Christians and the church, but I see Jesus' statement meaning he would be working on the hearts of all men, and yes, his grace is resistible, contrary to the Calvinistic doctrine of Irresistible Grace. This is why we don't see all men repent of their wicked ways. Those who respond to the grace of God apart from any head knowledge of Jesus, or in spite of their wrong understandings of him, and decide to be men of peace, or better yet, peacemakers, they are the children of God. Mt. 5:9 "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." That grace extends to Muslims and atheists. It is not dependent on an affirmation of faith in a theological proposition. What affirmation of the Gospel message does, however, is bring people into the Kingdom of God where they can experience life transforming power to change their very nature so they will stop sinning, and thus be saved from their sins (please note the lack of reference to the afterlife with the many uses of "salvation" in the bible - someone who turns from their wicked ways is saved, by definition, no matter what he believes in his head theologically.) This understanding that Jesus actively saves people by working with them by the power of the Holy Spirit (the New Covenant, IOW) is the thing that Muslims need to hear more about, not some trinity doctrine that makes no difference or some Penal Substitutionary Atonement theory like you probably believe which is a pagan idea. God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, and still is, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation. If you think the Gospel is "believe Jesus died for you so you won't experience the wrath of God for your sins" then you do not know what the Gospel is and your attempts at a ministry of reconciliation won't be very fruitful.

Sorry to disagree with you Krsto, but you are going against Mohammad's instructions, and were your prophet Mohammad alive today, he would order that your head be separated from your torso, for you would be considered to be an infidel, per his belief.

You have no idea what Mo taught, obviously. Not only do you not know what you don't know (and those of us who have spent a modicum of effort to learn this stuff can spot ignorance from a mile away), you have bought into the lies about Islam promulgated in the media and from many pulpits. You are bearing false witness, IOW.

Why don't you go to Saudi Arabia or Iran or how about Boca Raton and promote your version of Islam and come back and tell us how many joint church/mosque you built there and how far did you go into teaching that you believe in Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary as the only way to get to God the Father. (You did say that you believe that Jesus said He was going to be lifted up. If you do not know that means Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary being the ONLY way for anybody's salvation, be that person Muslim or Jew or Gentile or boy or girl or man or woman. There is no other way but Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary for anybody to be accepted into God's Kingdom.)

No other way except Jesus' way:

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

How about going to Mecca and building at least one (I would be happy with you building just one) church/mosque there and coming back here and letting us know how successful you were in your endeavors in perverting Islam.

Nah, Saudi Arabia, the center of Wahhabi thinking, is not the type of reform movement that is amenable to this. Neither is Iran. I'm not sure about any place else in the Mid East though some of the Gulf States might hold promise and Christians and Muslims in Jordan have gotten along fairly well. They've even had Christian kings. The good ole' USA is probably the best environment, as evidenced by the growth of the Ahmadiyya branch of Islam: http://www.ahmadiyya.us/about-ahmadiyya-muslim-community. Also, in Indonesia, there are two Muslims organizations that believe if you are faithful to the Gospel you are faithful (muslim) toward God. Their combined membership is about 180 million, almost the entire population of the Mid East. You will also find many in Egypt who are scholars of classical Islam that are doing a good job of reforming Islam in the right direction which is much more open minded than you would expect. The largest school of Islam in the world is in Cairo. Many mosques in the US are staffed by their graduates which have a completely different view on things that what you would expect.

And, no, the God of Islam is not the God of the Christian.

And the God of many Christians is not the God of the bible so there's that.

 

[Krsto]

The above sounds to me like crislam and it is an abomination to God and His Son's sacrifice on the Cross of Calvary.

The God of the Christian is NOT the god of Islam.

Qur’an states that Allah does NOT love NON-Muslims:

Qur’an 3:31-32—Say [O Muhammad]: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.

Qur’an 30:43-45—Then turn thy face straight to the right religion before there come from Allah the day which cannot be averted; on that day they shall become separated. Whoever disbelieves, he shall be responsible for his disbelief, and whoever does good, they prepare (good) for their own souls, that He may reward those who believe and do good out of His grace; surely He does not love the unbelievers.

Although Allah is called “the Loving,” the Qur’an only means by this that Allah will love people once they believe in him AND obey his prophet.

The god of Islam has no love for sinners and unbelievers.



In this you are correct for Jesus said in Matthew 5:43-48:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Now, if only the god of Islam would say the same thing as the God of the Christian...

Then and ONLY then, would they be the same.

The god of Islam is NOT the God of the Christian.

Ya know, cherry picking scriptures and quoting them out of context doesn't work any better with Islam than it does with Christianity.

 

[Krsto]

Not really, but I'm an armchair expert in Ancient Near Eastern studies. If you want to know about northern Arabia in pre-Islamic (or pre-Christian) times, I can help you there.

Jarrod

Thanks Jarrod. I'm particularly interested in the state of the church of which Mohammed believed did not follow the Gospel. From what I can tell Mo makes no mention of themes in the Pauline literature, either for or against, which makes me wonder if much of the NT outside of the Gospels was even used in 7th century Arabia. Mo's uncle was supposedly a theologian of some sort but I'm guessing his rendition of Christianity was also inadequate or quite flawed. Mo's crew did get a nice reception from the Christian king of Ethiopia which did help moderate his views of Christianity I'm sure. This all may be after your particular time of interest but anything you have would be appreciated.

 

[Krsto]

Part of what you say is true, but the part about praying to the same God is false. The God of Islam is with a little "g", has no son, and is fabricated (not real). The true and living God is a Holy Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit - yet the Holy Three are ONE. The god of Islam does not exist.

The god you describe is just as fabricated as anything Mohammed came up with.

From the inventors of the doctrine:

“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title THE TRINITARIAN DOGMA. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” From the New Catholic Encyclopedia. The Apostolic Fathers are those who followed immediately after the apostles and some had the apostles as their teachers.

 

[Krsto]

Part of what you say is true, but the part about praying to the same God is false. The God of Islam is with a little "g", has no son, and is fabricated (not real). The true and living God is a Holy Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit - yet the Holy Three are ONE. The god of Islam does not exist.

To me the most glaring fault of Mo's view of God is his insistence that an "All Merciful" God would condemn people to eternal torture. Unfortunately many Christians have the same demonic view of God.

 

[Krsto]

When 80% of them approve of ISIS in most areas and not significantly less otherwise, this is an accurate representation and no 'salesman' for Muslims is going to convince me to buy on 20% or less on return. I don't know the numbers, but I'd imagine 95% of Christians against killing abortion doctors in comparison. I'd say don't get sucked into Amway or any pyramid scheme because the percentage drops to 1% but it is probably too late lain: :wave: Have fun being a Muslim and trying to sell Amway. You were Unit-arian and heretical on other issues before so this all makes perfect sense to me and about what I'd expect. Heretic is as heretic does n Judges 17:6; 21:25

You need to check your stats. It's closer to 20% approval rate, on average. Approval of ISIS is greater among Christians in some countries than among Muslims in other countries. This goes to show that religion isn't the deciding factor or even the strongest influence, but politics is. Unfortunately, American foreign policy has contributed greatly to these views. If America had simply refused to colonize and subjugate for the sake of her Natural Resource Idolatry ISIS would not even exist and 9/11 would not have happened.

 

[journey]

The god you describe is just as fabricated as anything Mohammed came up with.

From the inventors of the doctrine:

“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title THE TRINITARIAN DOGMA. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” From the New Catholic Encyclopedia. The Apostolic Fathers are those who followed immediately after the apostles and some had the apostles as their teachers.

I'll use the Holy Bible and disagree with you.

 

[journey]

To me the most glaring fault of Mo's view of God is his insistence that an "All Merciful" God would condemn people to eternal torture. Unfortunately many Christians have the same demonic view of God.

Those who reject God and the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross will be condemned to the eternal fires of hell according to the Holy Bible. I really don't care what a false prophet or anyone else thinks. There isn't anything demonic about believing the clear teachings of the Holy Bible.

 

[Lon]

You need to check your stats. It's closer to 20% approval rate, on average.

:nono: Any stat I've ever seen has 20% 'undecided' :noway:

Here is another 'every-day-run-o-the-mill' Muslim story: Raping kids is no big deal to these Muslim soldiers. An American who busted him down is being dishonorable discharged for doing it, though it stopped it from happening again.

Approval of ISIS is greater among Christians in some countries than among Muslims in other countries.

You'd have to give a link for that. Ain't buying it.

This goes to show that religion isn't the deciding factor or even the strongest influence, but politics is.

Sure you'd say that, you are a Muslim now.

Unfortunately, American foreign policy has contributed greatly to these views. If America had simply refused to colonize and subjugate for the sake of her Natural Resource Idolatry ISIS would not even exist and 9/11 would not have happened.

:nono: Americans aren't killing off the super rich in this country. We too, certainly have been victimized. There is no sense holding on to billions of dollars. There is no way it can ever be spent. Stock piling it is cause for 1) less resources, 2) kept out of the hands of the working class etc. I'm not a socialist, but employers used to care, and take better care of their employees and were altruistic to a greater extent.

If we ever violently react, it isn't justified.

 

[lifeisgood]

Nah, Saudi Arabia, the center of Wahhabi thinking, is not the type of reform movement that is amenable to this. Neither is Iran. I'm not sure about any place else in the Mid East though some of the Gulf States might hold promise and Christians and Muslims in Jordan have gotten along fairly well. They've even had Christian kings. The good ole' USA is probably the best environment, as evidenced by the growth of the Ahmadiyya branch of Islam: http://www.ahmadiyya.us/about-ahmadiyya-muslim-community. Also, in Indonesia, there are two Muslims organizations that believe if you are faithful to the Gospel you are faithful (muslim) toward God. Their combined membership is about 180 million, almost the entire population of the Mid East. You will also find many in Egypt who are scholars of classical Islam that are doing a good job of reforming Islam in the right direction which is much more open minded than you would expect. The largest school of Islam in the world is in Cairo. Many mosques in the US are staffed by their graduates which have a completely different view on things that what you would expect.

You don't want to go to Saudi Arabia and build a church/mosque so you can teach them about Jesus Christ?
Not Iran either?
No Boca Raton?

Afraid of your head being separated from your torso are you?

When Christians started preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, after His death, burial, and resurrection, they were not afraid at all and they did not advocate let's build a church building only in those places that gives us permission to do so.

No, they went all over, especially those places where they knew they were going to be beheaded, cut asunder, burn as lamp stands, thrown to the lions, etc. So that individuals like you could learn about Jesus Christ and what He did for them at the Cross of Calvary.

Your bloviating ain't going help any Muslim, etc. just as it is not helping you either. However, you're entitled to bloviate.

Even your prophet Mohammad would tell you, 'Hey, Krsto, you can't have it both way. It's either me (Mohammad) and Allah alone, or nothing at all. Before I cut your head off, make up your mind which way you will cut it (no pun intended).'

 

[Wick Stick]

Thanks Jarrod. I'm particularly interested in the state of the church of which Mohammed believed did not follow the Gospel. From what I can tell Mo makes no mention of themes in the Pauline literature, either for or against, which makes me wonder if much of the NT outside of the Gospels was even used in 7th century Arabia. Mo's uncle was supposedly a theologian of some sort but I'm guessing his rendition of Christianity was also inadequate or quite flawed. Mo's crew did get a nice reception from the Christian king of Ethiopia which did help moderate his views of Christianity I'm sure. This all may be after your particular time of interest but anything you have would be appreciated.

Not my time or place of serious study, no.

I do know... the Ethiopian church, up through about the 4th century, developed with less influence from Rome and/or Constantinople than the rest of Christianity.

In Africa, they appear to have had access to, and actually used, a number of the Jewish "intertestamental" or "deuterocanon" books, which the Western church forsook fairly early on.

They appear to have interpreted virtually all of the Bible apocalyptically (as the Jews also did) - looking for the hidden meaning behind the text, or the application to today.

Because Paul traveled to the northern Mediterranean, his epistles were less circulated (and less venerated) in Africa. The writings of Mark and Peter were of more import there.

Also, the eschatology south of the Mediterranean appears to have been very different. Preterists today point to quotes from the patriarch of Alexandria as evidence for early eschatology of a preterist bent.

Finally, I would note that Mohammed appears to have focused far more on the OT writings than NT writings. This is no accident - he lived at/near the home of the historic Midianites, who (judging by the Biblical record) were practicing a form of the Law before the Israelite nation even existed.

Jarrod

 

[Eric h]

Posted by Eric h
However we juggle our beliefs about, the same God hears all our prayers. We have a duty to care for all of God's creation; and that has to mean caring for each other despite our diverse beliefs.

Part of what you say is true, but the part about praying to the same God is false. .

We may all pray to our own definition of God, but the same God hears all the prayers of Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindu etc. I truthfully believe that everyone on this Earth matters to God, and we should treat all people with kindness.

The God of Islam is with a little "g", has no son, and is fabricated (not real). The true and living God is a Holy Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit - yet the Holy Three are ONE. The god of Islam does not exist

If Christianity had any real meaning, then we would recognise each other and not be so divided.

 

[journey]

We may all pray to our own definition of God, but the same God hears all the prayers of Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindu etc. I truthfully believe that everyone on this Earth matters to God, and we should treat all people with kindness.



If Christianity had any real meaning, then we would recognise each other and not be so divided.

False! - We can agree to disagree.