Aimiel, can you elaborate on your title as "prophet"?

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godrulz

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Fensanity said:
Ok I am still confused, is this the same greek word for apostle used in Ephesians 4 as in other places when talking about the apostels? Could it have been talking about apostels for the building up Christ body, as in that it was refering to the 12 and Paul who had seen Jesus and not other people to come?

As far as us having Apostles today, would they have to see Jesus in His Reserected glory - like Paul did- to be called an apostle? What makes an apostle an apostle? Point me to some apostles we have today? Does anyone call themselves an apostle? If we really have Apostles who have seen Jesus I would love to talk to these poeple.

As far as the LDS apostles are concerned of course they are fake, but I would love nothing more to walk into the LDS church to talk to the missionaries and bring with me a real Apostle - if we still have them. They asked me where the other churches apostles where.

Anyways I would like to here from you again on this Godrulez and whoever else would like to answer.


Many Baptists and others wrongly assume that apostles and prophets have passed away, yet they retain the other leadership gifts. Some simply rename things and say that modern apostles are really 'missionaries'. Likewise, they pick and chose from the spiritual gifts and seem to be biased against tongues and prophecy (cessation model). There is no exegetical basis for this. It is a preconceived theology supported by their lack of personal experience (contrary to the experience of hundreds of millions of charismatics or Pentecostals).

The Greek word is the same and basically means a 'sent one'. Most Greek words have a spectrum of nuances depending on the context. The 12 Apostles do not have to be identical to subsequent apostles throughout church history. In other words, apostles in Acts, the early church, or today do not have to have seen the risen Christ directly.

The 5-fold plurality of leadership gifts are valuable for maturing the church. Our modern model of one strong pastor leader and a board who sometimes hinders his vision might work in the corporate world, but was not the intention of God's blueprint. Contrary to our traditions, the evangelist gift is one who is resident in the local church and equips the saints to do the work of the ministry. If every member was an equipped evangelist, we would have more impact than one travelling evangelist. The converts would also be discipled in the context of the family of God, rather than falling away after the emotional appeal of a fly by night evangelist looking for $.

I wrote a paper on a biblical philosophy of ministry. Sorry I cannot develop the evidence in a few posts. I humble apostle does not need to call himself such. I am familiar with ministries that seem to have an apostolic function and are called or call themselves such. e.g. In India and Canada, I am aware of leaders who have planted dozens of churches and give oversight to them. They raise up and send out other church planters and the kingdom of God grows numerically and in spiritual maturity. They seem to have a gift and anointing that goes beyond being responsible for one local church. Regardless of the label, like Paul, they function as those who are sent out and send out others. They have not seen Jesus first hand, but they grow His Church in impactful ways.

We could take one of these 'apostles' to the Mormons. There concept is different. Anyone can claim to be an Apostle and sit high up in an organization's hierarchy. Mormon apostles have a revelatory and governing role and sit in headquarters. They are not actively planting churches and giving direct oversight to them and mentoring other church planters. This is similar to JW's Governing Body (policy makers, but not effective at raising up congregations to reach the lost).

Anyone can claim to be an Apostle. In some charismatic circles, some high profile charismatic leaders go by this title. This does not make them apostles nor are they necessarily doing what NT apostles did (sent out of local churches, planted churches, oversee churches, etc.). The local church is God's plan for the family and army of God. If He gives leadership and spiritual gifts for edifying and equipping the local church, why would we negate them and rely on modern church growth techniques that often come from the corporate business world?

The bottom line is to find out all that Scripture says about the Church and leadership. We should line up our beliefs and practices with the Word and not our humanistic models of church government (there is no one model of church government in Scripture...culture, local situation, etc. can affect the exact model, yet we should apply biblical principles).
 

Mustard Seed

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godrulz said:
We could take one of these 'apostles' to the Mormons. There concept is different. Anyone can claim to be an Apostle and sit high up in an organization's hierarchy. Mormon apostles have a revelatory and governing role and sit in headquarters. They are not actively planting churches and giving direct oversight to them and mentoring other church planters. This is similar to JW's Governing Body (policy makers, but not effective at raising up congregations to reach the lost).


You seem ignorant to what LDS Apostles do and do not do. They are actively planting churches and giving direct oversight. Whether it's actualy serving time in foreign posts or communicating on a daily basis with congregations all over the world they take a very active role in governance, oversight, establishing and ministering to the thousands of congregations all over the world. Our prophet currently is probably one of the most well traveled men in the history of the world.
 

Aimiel

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Sozo said:
That's ridiculous. There are NO apostles today.

All the other ministries (pastors, teachers, evangelists) emanated from the apostles.
God 'gave' the five-fold ministry to His Body, and He doesn't take gifts back. The attitude that produced that thought, one of cessation, has caused The Word of The Lord to be 'precious' in this day. Those who recognize that God is True to His Word know this, and treat His Word as precious.

And the word of the LORD was precious in those days; there was no open vision.
 

godrulz

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Mustard Seed said:
You seem ignorant to what LDS Apostles do and do not do. They are actively planting churches and giving direct oversight. Whether it's actualy serving time in foreign posts or communicating on a daily basis with congregations all over the world they take a very active role in governance, oversight, establishing and ministering to the thousands of congregations all over the world. Our prophet currently is probably one of the most well traveled men in the history of the world.


The Mormon church is well organized and very rich. This does not make it true.

I am not very familiar with church organization. Your doctrinal beliefs are a more important issue.
 

Fensanity

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You seem ignorant to what LDS Apostles do and do not do. They are actively planting churches and giving direct oversight. Whether it's actualy serving time in foreign posts or communicating on a daily basis with congregations all over the world they take a very active role in governance, oversight, establishing and ministering to the thousands of congregations all over the world. Our prophet currently is probably one of the most well traveled men in the history of the world.

Whats the LDS standard to be called an Apostle?
 

Mustard Seed

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Fensanity said:
Whats the LDS standard to be called an Apostle?


They must be called of God by those with the keys and authority. Joseph Smith received the keys and authority of God to ordain men to such and then called those men. Joseph was the Presiding Authority as the head of the Quorum of the Presidency of the Church. Upon the death of the President the President's Quorum is disolved and the keys and authority of the church rest with the Quorum of the Twelve (granted the actual number of the Quorum becomes 14 as the councilors take their place upon the disolution of the Presidential Quorum. The revelation concerning the next President of the Church is rightfully received by the Quorum of the Twelve who then eventuly form again a Presiding Quorum of three. The President and his two councilors. For more information touching these bodies of government here are some links

http://scriptures.lds.org/gsa/apostle

http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=apostle&search.x=15&search.y=7&search=Search
 

Fensanity

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but they don't have to see Christ or anything like that to be called an apostel or have a vision and see Christ? This one mormon told me the apostels had a vision of Christ, after I possibly gave him some bad info on what it takes to be called an apostel.


BTW: I'll respond to the other thread soon, I have been trying to track down some sources.
 

Mustard Seed

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Fensanity said:
but they don't have to see Christ or anything like that to be called an apostel or have a vision and see Christ? This one mormon told me the apostels had a vision of Christ, after I possibly gave him some bad info on what it takes to be called an apostel.


BTW: I'll respond to the other thread soon, I have been trying to track down some sources.

They are special witnesses of Christ but the notion that they must physicaly view him is an erroneous one. I've heard some promulgate such a false doctrine. They must certainly have a strong witness of Christ but they do not have to have Christ appear to them.

I'm curious what was the "possibly...bad info" you gave?
 

godrulz

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Mustard Seed said:
They must be called of God by those with the keys and authority. Joseph Smith received the keys and authority of God to ordain men to such and then called those men. Joseph was the Presiding Authority as the head of the Quorum of the Presidency of the Church. Upon the death of the President the President's Quorum is disolved and the keys and authority of the church rest with the Quorum of the Twelve (granted the actual number of the Quorum becomes 14 as the councilors take their place upon the disolution of the Presidential Quorum. The revelation concerning the next President of the Church is rightfully received by the Quorum of the Twelve who then eventuly form again a Presiding Quorum of three. The President and his two councilors. For more information touching these bodies of government here are some links

http://scriptures.lds.org/gsa/apostle

http://scriptures.lds.org/query?words=apostle&search.x=15&search.y=7&search=Search


This is parallel to Roman Catholic's Apostolic Succession. Both views are not biblical. Authority is resident in Christ, not men.
 

Mustard Seed

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godrulz said:
This is parallel to Roman Catholic's Apostolic Succession. Both views are not biblical. Authority is resident in Christ, not men.


It is not parallel to Roman Catholic Apostolic Succession. It is far from it. For a demonstration of such I refer you to a book Apostles And Bishops In Early Christianity (Nibley, Hugh, Works. V. 15.).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590383893/104-7870014-6810329?v=glance&n=283155

The Early Christian Church, once left without apostles for it's over all governance, took the apostolic title and tried to give it to it's remaining clergy. Bishops and priests were what was left. Since no one could quite figure out how they should cordinate without the Apostles available they went through all manner of perplexities and theories about how the Church should be run. I wish I could mail you my copy if I had the funds to replace it (I'm not quite finished reading it) then I could point out the specifics and have you try and explain to me, in light of that, why your view is still the most valid and/or plausible one.
 

Mustard Seed

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godrulz said:
Authority is resident in Christ, not men.

Are you saying he didn't delegate authority to the apostles? Why did he send them out if his plan was to simply let them die off and leave the church with no guidance for the rest of time 'till his second coming? Christ still runs the church when he delegates authority to men. To say that if Christ says that some of his earthly mouth pieces have a portion of his authority how can you deny Christ that capability?
 

godrulz

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Mustard Seed said:
Are you saying he didn't delegate authority to the apostles? Why did he send them out if his plan was to simply let them die off and leave the church with no guidance for the rest of time 'till his second coming? Christ still runs the church when he delegates authority to men. To say that if Christ says that some of his earthly mouth pieces have a portion of his authority how can you deny Christ that capability?

All believers have a royal priesthood. The Great Commission includes Christ's delegated authority for us to go in His name/authority. While there are leadership gifts in the church with authority and responsibility, they are servant leaders, not a hierarchy above the common believer.
 

Mustard Seed

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godrulz said:
All believers have a royal priesthood. The Great Commission includes Christ's delegated authority for us to go in His name/authority. While there are leadership gifts in the church with authority and responsibility, they are servant leaders, not a hierarchy above the common believer.


What is authority without a hierarchy? What is a body with no specified parts with no specialized specified roles? Is God the author of chaos and disorder?

If all believers have the royal priesthood and anyone can chose to be a believer then you contradict Christ. He said--

16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Where does Christ indicate that he changed this order? Where does he indicate that anyone can be the head, or the foot, or whatever they want? Moses didn't get to chose to not be the Lord's mouth piece. Why and when did this change to what you claim it is? Because I do not see it, or any incling of it, in the Bible.
 

Fensanity

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They must certainly have a strong witness of Christ but they do not have to have Christ appear to them.

Well the missionary said that they had a vision, and saw Christ in the vision. He said it plainly and straight forwardly after I made my comment.
I said to be called an Apostel [in the Bible] you had to see Christ.

It did sound like he was just saying this and not knowing for fact. As if he was reasoning they must have seen a vision if this is the case. Though he didn't really say it like that. We all make mistakes though.
 

Mustard Seed

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Fensanity said:
Well the missionary said that they had a vision, and saw Christ in the vision. He said it plainly and straight forwardly after I made my comment.
I said to be called an Apostel [in the Bible] you had to see Christ.

It did sound like he was just saying this and not knowing for fact. As if he was reasoning they must have seen a vision if this is the case. Though he didn't really say it like that. We all make mistakes though.

I simply know of at least one apostle/prophet (can't recall the name at the moment) that mentioned that he, at the point he'd arrived at, had not seen Christ in vision. I also am not aware of any requisit to see Christ in order to be a special witness of him. Surely not all that saw him became apostles. But yes we all make mistakes, me especialy.
 

godrulz

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MS: I assume Mormons have forums like this on the internet. Do fellow Mormons disagree on things as we do here (there is a variety of significant views represented within traditional Christian circles here), or do they tend to tow the party line or seek out the LDS position as best as possible? I know some LDS scholars have been censured when their views diverge too far from the norm.
 

Mustard Seed

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godrulz said:
MS: I assume Mormons have forums like this on the internet. Do fellow Mormons disagree on things as we do here (there is a variety of significant views represented within traditional Christian circles here), or do they tend to tow the party line or seek out the LDS position as best as possible? I know some LDS scholars have been censured when their views diverge too far from the norm.


Of course there's varying opion on various areas. It's equaly obvious that any significant theological movement will have intellectual disedents, even to the extent of heretical and apostate stances. A key difference, however, is that we agree on what is vital and what is not negociable to such a degree to hold together an actual body. We are not some ambiguous formation. There is order in the Body of Christ. A head and feet and all other portions, not some all the same, structureless conglomeration of independent beings that all have the same authority and no order beyond that present amongst a body of related pathogens.
 
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