Right Divider
Body part
The Son is NOT HIS OWN FATHER.
You are not a Christian, you are some kind of a cultist.
You cannot think a SINGLE logical thought.
Acts 2:34
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The Son is NOT HIS OWN FATHER.
You are not a Christian, you are some kind of a cultist.
You cannot think a SINGLE logical thought.
God's Truth
New member
When you don't have truth to defend your beliefs, do the only thing you can do, verbally attack.
God's Truth
New member
Right Divider
God in the Old Testament says he will be the father of the son.
That is God the Father speaking in the Old Testament.
God the Father says he is the I Am.
That is Jesus speaking in the Old Testament.
God is the Father and He came as a Son.
There are not three different and separate persons, with only one of them with a Spirit.
That belief is everything you accuse mine of being.
God the Father is SPIRIT and lives in unapproachable light. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. Now how do you say the Father is a Person, and the Holy Spirit is a Person, and they are separate and different?
In addition, Jesus is a person, but you say his Spirit is not the same as the Holy Spirit.
So where is Jesus' spirit?
God in the Old Testament says he will be the father of the son.
That is God the Father speaking in the Old Testament.
God the Father says he is the I Am.
That is Jesus speaking in the Old Testament.
God is the Father and He came as a Son.
There are not three different and separate persons, with only one of them with a Spirit.
That belief is everything you accuse mine of being.
God the Father is SPIRIT and lives in unapproachable light. The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. Now how do you say the Father is a Person, and the Holy Spirit is a Person, and they are separate and different?
In addition, Jesus is a person, but you say his Spirit is not the same as the Holy Spirit.
So where is Jesus' spirit?
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RD said you REJECT it, not deny it.
Sorry, but that verse cannot be read to mean that the Father came as a Son. It's simply not possible, because that's not what it says.
Because we do.
That's what YOU say, not us...
No, He wasn't.
God. Period.
Not "God the Father," as you claim, but "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit," as the Bible claims.
Yes. However, He is not God the Father.
Correct.
By which you mean "...who is ONLY the Father," which is not what Scripture says.
That's ironic, coming from you.
How is it not? How is your truth supposedly showing him wrong?
No, He wasn't.
Jesus has never been "God the Father."
Jesus has, however, always been God, and God the Son at that, but never God the Father.
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
Yes.
Duh.
There is no scripture to support this.
Prior to making man, God made an image for Himself for His Son to indwell should His creation rebel against Him, and on Day 6, God made man in that image.
Before that, there was no "body" but God.
(Sorry, couldn't resist the pun...)
Yes He is.
No, RD is calling your conclusion perverted, that because the Holy Spirit is God (and He is), that therefore Jesus is the Father (because He is not).
This verse does not support your position.
Jesus (the Son) said that He would send a Comforter (the Holy Spirit) to dwell in us.
He (the Son) didn't say He (the Son) would send Himself (the Son).
He (the Son) said that He (the Son) would send another (the Holy Spirit).
And so are angels and archangels, and so is man (the difference being that man has a physical body in which to dwell).
Correct.
But that doesn't make Him (the Holy Spirit) the Father. It just makes Him (the Holy Spirit) God.
You haven't shown anything with scripture other than that you only know how to twist it to fit your beliefs.
Could you please repeat that, only this time, make it so that it actually makes sense?
Stop twisting what RD said, and maybe you'll actually understand what he's trying to say.
He said that the reasoning you used is twisted to make the claim that the Holy Spirit is "God the Father."
So do cults. Doesn't make what they say correct.
He says that because the Holy Spirit is NOT "God the Father." The Holy Spirit IS God, He is "God the Holy Spirit."
Because the Holy Spirit is not "God the Father."
Because it is.
And your conclusion is wrong.
The Holy Spirit is not "God the Father." He is "God the Holy Spirit," the third Person of the ONE triune God.
Sorry, but they don't say what you want them to say.
Sorry, but that doesn't make the Holy Spirit (who is God) the Father (who is God).
Repeating yourself doesn't make you correct.
And again, your conclusion is wrong.
No one is hiding from that fact.
Actually, yes it does.
It makes Jesus God the Son, who was with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit for all of eternity past.
Correct.
Incorrect.
Jesus is God the Son, not God the Father.
Yes. God the Father (because He is God) is I AM.
Yes, and that makes Him God the Son, not God the Father.
Correct.
Incorrect. Jesus is the Son, not the Father.
Correct.
Jesus is not the Father.
Jesus is the Son.
The Holy Spirit is God, but He is not the Father nor the Son.
The Bible teaches that. Why do you reject what the Bible teaches?
Duh.
Again, duh.
What you mean by that is: "The I AM is ONLY 'God the Father'!"
Which is incorrect.
The I AM is God, who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and the Three are One.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Once more, you're confusing "single" with "singular."
There is a SINGLE God.
But He is not SINGULAR in nature.
He is PLURAL in nature.
I see what you're trying to say, and I'm sure RD does too, but your wording allows for an interpretation that you follow that is NOT allowed by what scripture says.
The correct way of saying it (to remain consistent with Scripture) is to say "Jesus was the Son of God who became flesh." Jesus did not become "the Son of God." He became flesh.
A verse that supports the Trinity, not your unitarianism.
No, that would be you.
The only one avoiding truth here is you.
Yes He is.
Yes He is.
You're making a non-sequitur argument.
Just because Jesus (God the Son) is God, and the Holy Spirit (God the Holy Spirit) is God, and the Father (God the Father) is God, that does not mean that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all the same Person.
This is the most correct thing you've said this entire thread.
No, not "God the Father."
God. Period.
God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Yes He is.
Loaded question.
I reject your premise, and therefore reject your question.
Just like a crowd is one, and just like a husband and wife are one.
Not like a singular person is one.
No, it does not.
Not in this context.
Try paying attention to what RD quoted you on.
I mean, it's true. You don't. If you did, you wouldn't be making the arguments that you're making.
Yes He is.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
God the Father is I AM.
God the Son is I AM.
God the Holy Spirit is I AM.
The Father is not the Son.
The Son is not the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
The Three are ONE in plural unity.
The difference is that we don't say He is the Father, because He is not.
Were Jesus and the Father together when Jesus cried "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani"?
The Son is not the same as the Father.
No, it says that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are the One God, and that they are DISTINCT Persons.
Question begging.
Sorry, but that's not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that the Son and the Father (and by implication, the Holy Spirit) are one in unity, not in singularity.
Can you provide a verse in the Old Testament that says "God the Father"?
Can you provide a verse in the Old Testament that says "God the Father"?
No, he's quite right.
I can't speak for RD, but I can speak for myself.
I have NEVER been Catholic. I've never been taught by a catholic. I HAVE been taught by a former Catholic, but his testimony is that He left the Catholic Church after starting to read the Bible. And He is still a trinitarian.
But for the most part, I grew up Lutheran, then Baptist, and am now non-denominational.
God the Father is I AM.
That's not what RD said.
RD said the Three ARE One.
Not "three in one."
I'm not sure Right Divider caught that, but there's a huge difference there.
Because the Father and the Son are not the same Person.
Same God, different Person.
:yawn: Why do you keep making this straw man?
He is ALSO the Son and ALSO the Holy Spirit.
Emphatically repeating yourself and pounding the podium doesn't magically make you correct.
God is FATHER AND SON AND HOLY SPIRIT.
You can't have one of the Persons of the Trinity without the other two.
:think:
... AND THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE SON!
Oh wait, did I leave my Caps-Lock on? Whoops... :mock:
Question begging is a logical fallacy. You shouldn't do that.
Straw man.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
No, they are not the same.
Well, no, RD isn't saying the same thing at all as what you're saying.
Huh?
Slow down when you type. Maybe you'll be more understandable...
Do you not have a Bible or computer capable of searching the Bible?
Look it up yourself.
Here's a hint: It's in Exodus 3...
:think:
3... such an odd number (pardon the pun)...
https://kgov.com/three
:think:
Exodus 3...
Well, no, they may have formalized a version of the trinity doctrine, but the fact that God is a plurality has been taught since the first verse in the Bible.
While “distinct” and “different” are indeed synonyms, they mean different things and are used in two completely different ways.
Here’s the difference.
distinct:
| MEANING: distinguished as not being the same ETYMOLOGY: Distinct is etymologically related to distincten “to distinguish”. MODERN USAGE: Distinct suggests different identity, although the things might be similar in other ways. It stresses that the two qualities are not the same although they might have similarities. SENTENCE EXAMPLE: I can easily recognize the distinct smell of those flowers. ALSO MEANS: unquestionably exceptional or notable: a distinct honour. |
different:
| MEANING: not alike in character or quality ETYMOLOGY: Different is etymologically related to differre “to set apart”. MODERN USAGE: Different is opposite of alike and thus it applies to things that are not alike. It stresses on individuality. SENTENCE EXAMPLE: The crime was witnessed by five different people. ALSO MEANS: not ordinary; unusual: the food tastes different. |
(Both of the above are from https://learnodo-newtonic.com/distin...e-two-synonyms)
Basically, your argument assumes they mean the same thing, when they don’t.
Separate? In what way?
This is question begging.
The I Am is Father, Son, Holy Spirit, because I AM is God, who is Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
That’s what the Bible teaches.
Uh, no. He didn’t.
He spoke through prophets.
Saying it doesn’t make it so.
That’s odd, because last I checked, the phrase, “God the Father” is not in the Old Testament.
That God is ONLY God the Father? Yes.
No one has said otherwise (except for maybe Oatsy…) You just got through saying EACH one of them is God.[/QUOTE]
Yes, the three Persons are ONE God.
So simple, and yet so far beyond your comprehension.
So is God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Just like you will never be able to comprehend that the Son and The Holy Spirit are also I AM, but neither of them are the Father.
:duh:
That’s what we’ve been saying the entire time, you dunce.
We know exactly what we’re saying.
You don’t know what we’re saying though, because you can’t comprehend it.
Which is wrong.
Which is wrong.
And we’re correct.
Elohim (Hebrew for “Gods” (literally a plural noun)) is indeed a title.
In fact, if you look at the ancient cultures of Moses’ time, you’ll notice that all the pagan gods in the various cultures are all called by their TITLES, not by their names.
In the Old Testament, either YHWH or Elohim is used, depending on the context of who is speaking to whom, and YHWH is NEVER used as a title, only a name, just as Elohim is NEVER used as a name, only as a title.
I recommend you listen to the following two BEL programs:
https://kgov.com/rebutting-the-docum...mberto-cassuto
https://kgov.com/gentry-2
OR just buy the following book and read it:
The Documentary Hypothesis and the Composition of the Pentateuch: Eight Letters https://www.amazon.com/dp/0196471923..._5.MGEbFDECEJV
for more information on this topic.
(or just read the show summaries of the above BEL programs)
(or if you refuse to use extra-biblical sources for studying the Bible, just study how Moses and the other authors of the Old Testament use God’s names and titles)
See above.
No, it doesn’t say that.
It says:
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. - 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV
No, it doesn’t. But it does say (not verbatim, but a careful study shows it clearly) that there is only one God, and He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Yes, One God and Lord.
But not “One God who is the Father,” as you claim but which doesn’t exist.
There is no “God the Father” in the Old Testament.
God is I AM. God (I AM) is Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit in the Old and New Testament.
I wonder how you deal with this verse…
Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens. - Genesis 19:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...p;version=NKJV
Two “YHWH”s are used in the same verse describing two different persons, one of which is the Angel of the LORD.
So you don’t have any verses that say, specifically, “God the Father” that are from the Old Testament?
Yet you won’t quote them…
Do we have to ask you for them every time you say there are scriptures? or can you save us the extra step and just quote them?
That One God is ALSO the Son, and ALSO the Holy Spirit.
Who was speaking in that verse, GT?
Yes.
No, We believe there is one God, and He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Yes.
Yes.
No, Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is the Son.
Yes.
Liar. Take the beam out of your own eye first.
Claiming to have told the truth doesn’t magically make what you say the truth.
Except that it doesn’t say that.
I wonder why… :think:
Because you are a liar.
God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit, in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.
That’s what the Bible says.
But you try to complicate it.
That is correct.
No, we say the Angel of the LORD claims to be I AM.
Look in a mirror.
No He’s not.
The Father didn’t come as a Son.
The Father stayed in Heaven, the Son came to earth.
Jesus wasn’t just called a son of God
Jesus WAS and IS and ALWAYS WILL BE the Son (capital S) of God.
You heretic, you just tried to pass off a blasphemous claim that Jesus was not THE Son of God.
JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD.
HE IS NOT THE FATHER OF GOD.
No, He was not “God the Father with a body.”
Repeating yourself doens’t change anything.
No, He didn’t make a body before the creation of the universe. He made an IMAGE, and then formed man in that image.
Jesus did NOT have a body prior to his incarnation.
Why do you deny the Incarnation of Christ? That’s what you’re doing.
Saying it doesn’t make it so.
False. The BIBLE uses “God” (Elohim) as a title in the Old Testament.
God is the Creator.
God is Spirit.
God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Yes, those are the three Persons of the ONE GOD.
No, it isn’t.
Because Jesus is NOT the Father.
The Father is I AM.
Jesus (the Son) is I AM.
The Holy Spirit is I AM.
The Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit.
Your opinion has been noted and discarded.
Because it was ALL THREE, the ONE GOD WHO IS TRIUNE.
Laughter like this isn’t a sign of good mental health, GT. You should get looked at.
Yes.
Saying it doesn’t make it so.
And?
Again, AND?
You’re equivocating.
There are different kinds of “Spirit”s in the Bible.
Because of this, we can safely reject your premise, and therefore your argument.
Saying it doesn’t make it so, GT.
Yes it does.
No, it is not.
There is NO scripture that says “there is one God and He is the Father” either.
No there aren’t.
You deny that God spoke in the Old Testament?
I believe (if I remember correctly, as I don’t have the post pulled up) that that was a question he asked you, not a statement, and that he expected an answer, which so far you have not provided...
Yes, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are one God. But God the Father is not God the Son is not God the Holy Spirit.
Repeating this lie doesn’t magically make it come true.
Yes.
No, they are not.
Here, let’s see if this helps you understand the trinity better:
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God's Truth
New member
You couldn't even answer this one simple question.
By the way, I am not reading or replying to that too long a post you made.
I did answer it.
Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean I didn't answer your question.
I'm reminded of Abbott and Costello's "Who's on first" routine...
God's Truth
New member
No, you wouldn't even answer according to the trinity doctrine.
If you just want to say 'God' as the answer, then why do you get mad when I say Jesus and the Father are the same?!
We both already believe that JESUS IS GOD.
Now try to answer who it is in the Old Testament.
Is it the Father or the Son calling himself I Am?
You can't answer because you know it will prove your doctrine is false.
Right Divider
Body part
You just don't even read what others write!
And, it appears that you still do not know who THE ANGEL OF THE LORD is.
Sounds like you're just lazy.
There's hardly anything to that post, there was just a lot to reply to.
Either way, refusing to consider your opponent's arguments is generally considered an admission of defeat.
Admit it, GT, you don't want to be shown that you're wrong, because it would mean you've wasted all this time on TOL and elsewhere saying something that isn't true, and your pride won't allow you to be humbled like that, so you continue to teach your false doctrine.
You should humble yourself, GT, before you face God and have to answer for all the people you led astray with your doctrine.
Your questions were answered in my above post and in the one you refuse to read.
i can't help that your stubborn, but I'm not going to repeat myself just to satisfy a fool who has, for all intents and purposes, conceded defeat on this topic.
GT is going to stand ashamed before God when she finally meets Him.
God's Truth
New member
You know that was too long a post.
Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are all one and the same.
It really wasn't.
If you take out all the repetitious stuff from you I had to repeatedly reply to, it isn't very long at all.
The least you could do (to remain intellectually honest) is to read the post. That's it.
Consider your opponents arguments before rejecting them. Otherwise, why are you even on TOL?
This was addressed multiple times in the above post. I'm not going to address it again.
God's Truth
New member
If you answer with either Father, Son, or Holy Spirit, then I will take the time to read and answer your long post.
:yawn:
I'm not going to repeat my answer. If you want to know my answer, you'll read my post.
If you don't read my post, then I have nothing else to say to you. Why should I try to respond to what you say when you don't even bother reading my posts?
God's Truth
New member
You can't answer.
How do you know? You haven't read my post. I'm saying I answered you there, and won't answer the question again.. You say I can't answer. Who's more likely to be telling the truth, you, someone who is intellectually dishonest enough to refuse to read a post because "it's too long" when there's barely anything to it and who tries to bargain with the poster trying to get him to answer a question which he's already answered, or me, the one who has, despite it taking a lot of time out of his day to respond to your multiple arguments from repetition, straw men, and other logical fallacies, done his best to try to engage you rationally along with RD?
You or me? Which is more likely, that I'm unable to answer? or that my answer is in the post you refuse to read?
God's Truth
New member
K. That's nice.
Go scurry off to the next thread where you'll ignore everything that people post.