Abuse or discipline?

[annabenedetti]

Sure.

Hitting (or spanking, to bring it back to the original discussion and not trade our canoes for bass boats) is the punishment.

Spanking is hitting.

Punishment can be something other than spanking/hitting. Loss of privileges, extra chores, that sort of thing.

It might be preferable to the legal sanctions you'd face for driving the way I described. :idunno:

That doesn't make any sense. Whether I got beaten by the cop or not, I'd still face the legal consequences for my driving.

Your analogy just didn't apply.

 

[resurrected]

Spanking is hitting.

It's a controlled mild form of hitting, yes.

Different than slugging a kid in the jaw with a closed fist.

Punishment can be something other than spanking/hitting.

I don't think I've suggested that that's not so. :idunno:

 

[annabenedetti]

It's a controlled mild form of hitting, yes.

Different than slugging a kid in the jaw with a closed fist.

You've offered a false dilemma here by excluding the middle.

In that excluded middle are all the descriptions of spanking I gave in my first comment in the thread. Spanking isn't necessary mild. It can be painfully abusive and psychologically damaging, depending on the parent's subjective view of exactly what constitutes a "spanking." I'm glad to see you at least acknowledge spanking as hitting.

I don't think I've suggested that that's not so. :idunno:

Simply pointing out you'd changed the terminology, and why it mattered.

 

[resurrected]

Then we'll return to my statement:

I think it's a good thing for a child to fear punishment for wrongdoing.

 

[annabenedetti]

Then we'll return to my statement:

I think it's a good thing for a child to fear punishment for wrongdoing.

With the understanding you've acknowledged that by punishment you mean controlled mild hitting.

 

[resurrected]

With the understanding you've acknowledged that by punishment you mean controlled mild hitting.

Yes.

And let's bring it full circle to the statement you made:

When a child cringes in fear or hides because he knows the belt, switch or wooden spoon is coming, that child is abused - both mentally and physically.

...and would you agree that a child might cringe in fear or hide because he fears the controlled mild spanking/hitting?

 

[annabenedetti]

...and would you agree that a child might cringe in fear or hide because he fears the controlled mild spanking/hitting?

Like he would if he knew a belt, switch or wooden spoon was coming for him? Honestly, no. I don't think so.

But when he sees the hand and arm raised, would he cringe? Sure. Wouldn't you?

 

[resurrected]

You don't think that a mild, controlled hitting/spanking can be dealt out with a belt, switch or wooden spoon?

 

[annabenedetti]

You don't think that a mild, controlled hitting/spanking can be dealt out with a belt, switch or wooden spoon?

No. If that's your definition of a mild, controlled spanking, you've gone from hitting to beating.

 

[resurrected]

Never been hit with a switch as punishment. Used to get in whipping fights as a kid where we'd smack each other with cattails and such.

Had a fan belt break once when I was revving an engine - that hurt. A good lesson - I learned to stay clear of fan belts when revving an engine.

My grandma used a wooden spoon - she had severe arthritis. I don't remember fearing it particularly. :idunno:


But you seem determined to imagine scenarios where any corporal punishment is abuse :idunno:

 

[LKmommy]

More information needed. Parents have a legal right to discipline their children however, that has physical limitations and other guidelines like age and severity.

*I* think parents have a moral obligation to discipline their children but this does not always mean "physical" discipline, though personally I condone that within reasonable limits as well.

 

[LKmommy]

When a child cringes in fear or hides because he knows the belt, switch or wooden spoon is coming, that child is abused - both mentally and physically.

I agree AB, when a child cringes at their parent merely lifting their hand, then there *might* be a cause for concern. I can see where you are coming from but I would not so readily defend it as "abuse". There are too many things that could come into play before making such a legal determination.

I've in how they view spanking because there are so many gray areas. Some parents say spanking with only an open hand is okay, some say they never slap the face, some only use an object and never their hand because the object separates/distances the parent from the action. Some let their child pick out the belt or cut their own switch....and there are those who think spanking is okay as long as you don't leave a mark. lain:

:first: and those people you lastly described would be following the laws of their respective State (granted it was in the legally prescribed areas of the body allowed).

All of this doesn't change the underlying reality that a large adult is striking a small child "in love."

Love is teaching my child as early as possible that "bad behavior" is NEVER EVER accepted anywhere in our society and should NEVER be rewarded. Love is also being corrective when necessary, consistent, along with affirmations and rewards of postive behaviors.

 

[Ktoyou]

This has proven to be most effective

Positive reinforcement: giving a goody. This best is using an intermittent schedule, especially after often giving goodies.

Negative reinforcement: taking away a bady. Examples are removing some restraint, such as allowing a child greater freedom for being more mature and responsible.

Response cost: taking away a goody, we all experience that when you receive a traffic fine, it takes away your money. For children, taking away a privilege, such as a 'time out'

Punishment: receiving a bady, such as a spanking. for most young children, just the idea of presenting the bady alone punishes, more so than the pain. I am saying there is non good reason to cause much pain.

With very young children the lowest form, punishment will work best because a response cost is not understood. Also, corporal punishment is only effective, in most cases, with very young children.

Later, response cost, such as 'time out' is more effective. If you punish properly, the child should respond with with no more than a verbal threat, such as, " you keep that up, you will get a spanking".

Reinforcement is the best method, as children like to earn freedom and goodies.

It worked well for me, yet every child is unique and different; the adult should understand how to use these methods most effective.

 

[Yves21]

Oh wow, this got out there. I will not spank my kids when/if I have any, but I do not think it is abuse if it's just for punishment. Yes if you raise you hand to a child out of anger that is abuse. And to annabenedetti, I said nothing about a belt or wooden spoon, I believe using something other than you hand is abuse, out of anger or not, but what you mentioned is on a whole other scale and not what I was talking about at all. Makes me wonder what the rest of you think.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Oh wow, this got out there. I will not spank my kids when/if I have any, but I do not think it is abuse if it's just for punishment. Yes if you raise you hand to a child out of anger that is abuse. And to annabenedetti, I said nothing about a belt or wooden spoon, I believe using something other than you hand is abuse, out of anger or not, but what you mentioned is on a whole other scale and not what I was talking about at all. Makes me wonder what the rest of you think.

Why not just explain by giving an example of what you meant in your op, then you wont have to wonder about our thoughts as we wont keep having to be forced to wonder what your thinking is, and we can answer you better.

 

[annabenedetti]

I agree AB, when a child cringes at their parent merely lifting their hand, then there *might* be a cause for concern. I can see where you are coming from but I would not so readily defend it as "abuse". There are too many things that could come into play before making such a legal determination.

:first: and those people you lastly described would be following the laws of their respective State (granted it was in the legally prescribed areas of the body allowed).

IIRC you work with abused children, or for them in advocacy? I don't recall in what capacity but I'm glad you're there for them and can't imagine how tough a job that has to be. I certainly acknowledge your understanding of what constitutes legal abuse and am aware that legally, parents have a lot of leeway. I wasn't speaking to the legal definition though, just listing the different actions that parents typically call spanking.

Love is teaching my child as early as possible that "bad behavior" is NEVER EVER accepted anywhere in our society and should NEVER be rewarded.

Nothing in what I said should have given any indication that I thought 'bad behavior' should be rewarded. Having said that, if you teach a child that "'bad behavior' is NEVER EVER accepted anywhere in our society," you're teaching him something that's not true. Bad behavior is accepted everywhere in society; better the child learns how to live with that reality.

Love is also being corrective when necessary, consistent, along with affirmations and rewards of postive behaviors.

Yes, I'd agree with all of that; the distinction lies in what constitutes "corrective."

 

[annabenedetti]

Response cost: taking away a goody, we all experience that when you receive a traffic fine, it takes away your money. For children, taking away a privilege, such as a 'time out'

Punishment: receiving a bady, such as a spanking. for most young children, just the idea of presenting the bady alone punishes, more so than the pain. I am saying there is non good reason to cause much pain.

With very young children the lowest form, punishment will work best because a response cost is not understood. Also, corporal punishment is only effective, in most cases, with very young children.

Later, response cost, such as 'time out' is more effective. If you punish properly, the child should respond with with no more than a verbal threat, such as, " you keep that up, you will get a spanking".

Reinforcement is the best method, as children like to earn freedom and goodies.

It worked well for me, yet every child is unique and different; the adult should understand how to use these methods most effective.

Positive reinforcement works miracles. For very young kids (about ages 2-4 or so) distraction worked so well that things rarely escalated. For example, if I said it was bedtime and one of my kids started to act up, I'd start asking them what they did that day that was so fun, or talking about something I knew they were very interested in, like trains.

All the while I was talking to them I was helping them into their pajamas, and they would get so involved in the conversation they forgot they were ready to throw a tantrum five minutes earlier. I'm smiling right now, thinking about putting those little arms through their sleeves and them helping so willingly because their minds were already so busy with this new idea they'd forgotten they were ready to pitch a fit. They went to bed happy, with bedtime stories and kisses instead of tears, anger and spanking.

This method worked over and over again, throughout the day, in all kinds of situations. In this way they learned how to cope with the disappointments that life was - and is - sure to bring them.

 

[annabenedetti]

Oh wow, this got out there. I will not spank my kids when/if I have any, but I do not think it is abuse if it's just for punishment. Yes if you raise you hand to a child out of anger that is abuse. And to annabenedetti, I said nothing about a belt or wooden spoon, I believe using something other than you hand is abuse, out of anger or not, but what you mentioned is on a whole other scale and not what I was talking about at all. Makes me wonder what the rest of you think.

When and if you have any, I hope you'll remember this thread.

As for belts and wooden spoons, it should be clear to you from reading the thread that while you may not have meant those things, that some people consider them to be a method of spanking, so clarifying what the term means to different people is important.

And welcome to TOL.

 

[bybee]

Well done, agreed!
I believe consistency and fairness go a long way toward avoiding problems.
And as Anna has said, interject some fun into the mix and it gets even better!

 

[Yves21]

You know annabenedetti I have worked with abused kids and I was one growing up. Using a belt or some other object besides the hand yes that is abuse, like when they get in trouble for like making a mess breaking a window something along that line, is punishment. But when you take a weapon like a belt or a wooden spoon that is abuse. There are kids and adults who were abused as kids agree with me on this, because their parents weren't smart enough to stop when the child was quivering.