Abuse or discipline?

[lightbringer]

The truth is seldom mild and should only be attempted by those of great courage towards self improvement, for the weak will fall by the wayside and learn to make excuses for their failure.

 

[Lighthouse]

I'm on record here as disagreeing with your view on paddles and other wooden objects.

I noticed.

Disassociation. Of the parent, not the child. He's not helping the child disassociate the paddle from his "embracing" hands. More likely distancing himself from the vague guilt which may accompany the hitting of his precious children with a wooden implement.

I'll let him deal with that comment, if he so chooses.

It is entirely possible to raise well-mannered adults without striking them as children.

I'll believe it when I see it.

And your line I bolded?

That's the mentality I just cannot fathom. At all.

And if you think it's worthless to leave no mark, you've negated completely the argument that spanking isn't abusive as long as you don't leave a mark. In your estimation then, all those who spank gently aren't accomplishing a thing...except showing their kids that the best way to show displeasure is to hit someone.

What do you think I mean when I say you should leave a mark? I made it clear it should not be a bruise or a welt, which means it is a temporary mark, one that will fade within a few minutes.

But a belt has to leave a mark, right? Yet you said without a mark it's worthless. So either it's abusive...or it's worthless. You can't have it both ways.

You're ignorant.

And that "I am personally opposed..." line sounds awfully familiar somehow...:think:

We're not talking about murder.

Also, it's always better to wait until there is no anger involved when disciplining. IF the spanking is accompanied by swearing, yelling and/or derogatory name-calling, no child would see such an action as loving.

I think it's always better to act before getting angry.

:rotfl: I'm hoping this comment would be reconsidered by any adult that allows it to run through their mind as an indication of the tendency towards brutality by the individual proposing it.

Tendency toward brutality? You don't know me at all.

Striking one that we supposedly love in a manner to mare the skin, and just think, in order to know when you have left your mark, the child (age ? O-18 but I'm sure those thinking like this have some arbitrary age that is appropriate so that it wouldn't be considered something else) has to be unclothed (naked) so you are also heaping embarrassment on top of brutality, a scary train of thought.

Good gravy, how stupid are you? I didn't make any mention of ages, and you have made an assumption based on nothing; you have made yourself look like a fool. Even more so with your extrapolation to the idea the child must be naked, or even bare bottomed. Neither of those is necessary, in fact they would be pointless.

And as for ages, a child who is too young to be communicated with is too young to be actually spanked. And the fact that I made it clear there should be communication before and after should have made it clear to you that I was speaking of children old enough for that to be effective. But in my time here it has become increasingly clear to me that you're an idiot; because only an idiot would be unable or unwilling to reason from all evidence and then make asinine assumptions and extrapolations to unfounded accusations.

It goes hand in hand with "I'm doing this because I love you" and "this hurts me more than it does you" . :rotfl: two of my personal favorites, any one that thinks like this needs help.... they weren't able to fathom it when I grew old enough to reply " Let me have the belt so that I can show you how much I love you". :rotfl:

I understood it perfectly as far back as I can remember.

You want to screw with a kids mind, say things that make no sense, then try to explain it rationally and you will really screw them up, but you won't even see your handy work until they are much older.

That's why you talk to them, to see if they understand. Do you ever pay attention?

Disassociation...:rotfl: the play ground of a child's mind when his/her reality becomes to difficult to deal with for one so young.

Never mind, you clearly can't afford to pay attention.

 

[lightbringer]

It is worthless if it doesn't leave a mark.

You accept ownership of the above remark followed by anger and excuses.

Nothing more needs being said.

 

[Quincy]

I think it's abuse and ineffective. I've known so many people who were spanked, including myself, who are totally different away from their parents than they are around them. All it really does is teach a kid to act in a way that pleases the parents when they're around. Once they're gone, the kid goes wild.

I guess some parents just care about being in control and feeling like their kid is obedient as opposed to actually knowing who their child is.

 

[xAvarice]

When I choose to drink a bottle of scotch and roar down the back roads at ninety miles an hour knocking over mailboxes for the sheer fun of it, am I "abused" when the cop pulls me over and approaches the car?

Great, relevant comparison. Well done *slowclap*

Edit: Since I've commented I may as well share my view: I think it's always abuse and it's ineffective (even though the effectiveness shouldn't be a factor), I think most parents are clueless already, never mind being able to make a distinction on punishment.

My mother had hit me in the past and it just made me lose respect for her or angry myself, especially when she did it for lack of self-control.

Although, I'd never call it abuse, it was still a stupid way to raise a child.

 

[Quincy]

I feel bad for all the parents out there that really have no idea what their children do when they aren't around. They will never really know their kids, because their kids will either fear them or hate them and never talk to them and form a real relationship. Maybe some kids respond to spanking favorably but not many.

 

[Angel4Truth]

I think it's abuse and ineffective. I've known so many people who were spanked, including myself, who are totally different away from their parents than they are around them. All it really does is teach a kid to act in a way that pleases the parents when they're around. Once they're gone, the kid goes wild.

I guess some parents just care about being in control and feeling like their kid is obedient as opposed to actually knowing who their child is.

Actually when i was younger, my peers who were never spanked, still acted different when away from their parents, but they acted even worse away from them, and when they would get into massive trouble, their parents would treat them like perfect angels who would never do anything wrong, and they ended up in much worse trouble and even jail later.

So i guess some parents just think love is buying them off or putting them in their room so they dont have to deal with them and imagining themselves the perfect parents while they never teach their kid anything.

So i guess we have these kinds of stories both ways.

Teens have a habit of pushing it no matter what kind of parents they have and its called trying to assert their own complete adult independence and peer pressure and most give in to it to some degree no matter what kind of parents they had.

 

[LKmommy]

yet every child is unique and different; the adult should understand how to use these methods most effective.[/QUOTE]

Being consistent in enforcing the rule and punishing the behavior from the onset AND "the adult understanding the unique responses the child has and the desired outcomes is KEY. :thumb: The last part can be tricky for the slow, uneducated, or uninvolved type parent.

I also advise parents to educate themselves on their State Statutes regarding abuse/neglect. It will also outline their "rights as parents".

 

[LKmommy]

IIRC you work with abused children, or for them in advocacy? I don't recall in what capacity but I'm glad you're there for them and can't imagine how tough a job that has to be. I certainly acknowledge your understanding of what constitutes legal abuse and am aware that legally, parents have a lot of leeway.

Abuse/Neglect Investigator, 15 years, self retired. Thank you for your considerations.

I wasn't speaking to the legal definition though, just listing the different actions that parents typically call spanking.

And not every parent I visited because of an allegation was from a low income, drug/crime ridden area....the most surprised by my "house call" were those of middle to uppermiddle to upperclass! "Most parents" who have things that society says are desirable (job/income from legal means, home/place to live, car, etc) the ones you are speaking of I presume??

They are the most surprised to learn you can no longer (in some States) "wash your kids mouth out with soap". In Ohio for example if you have any history or concern and you verify it was done, the child is at "high risk of imminent harm".

Nothing in what I said should have given any indication that I thought 'bad behavior' should be rewarded.

I did NOT say you promote bad behavior AB.

Having said that, if you teach a child that "'bad behavior' is NEVER EVER accepted anywhere in our society," you're teaching him something that's not true. Bad behavior is accepted everywhere in society; better the child learns how to live with that reality.

I disagree that it is "accepted" everywhere. Accepted by whom? Perverted, immoral, evil, self serving Godless people? Perhaps it is "allowed", minimized, or overlooked but accepted?

I tell my child that there are bad people, evil "big"/adult people in this world who would hurt someone or take others things if they had a chance....people who did not learn the lesson from age 5, 6, 7 (and so on). I also tell her who her family is and God is at the top of the triangle chart.

 

[LKmommy]

The truth is seldom mild and should only be attempted by those of great courage towards self improvement, for the weak will fall by the wayside and learn to make excuses for their failure.

Very nicely stated!

 

[xAvarice]

Teens have a habit of pushing it no matter what kind of parents they have and its called trying to assert their own complete adult independence and peer pressure and most give in to it to some degree no matter what kind of parents they had.

Why not just lock them in the basement? Then they'd always behave the way you wanted... and just a big stick for if they complained?

Edit: LKmommy was my favourite right winger for the day, but I think you lost me with "perverted"... on here that just means gay, if that's not what you meant - you're certainly in the lead.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Actually when i was younger, my peers who were never spanked, still acted different when away from their parents, but they acted even worse away from them, and when they would get into massive trouble, their parents would treat them like perfect angels who would never do anything wrong, and they ended up in much worse trouble and even jail later.

So i guess some parents just think love is buying them off or putting them in their room so they dont have to deal with them and imagining themselves the perfect parents while they never teach their kid anything.

So i guess we have these kinds of stories both ways.

Teens have a habit of pushing it no matter what kind of parents they have and its called trying to assert their own complete adult independence and peer pressure and most give in to it to some degree no matter what kind of parents they had.

Why not just lock them in the basement? Then they'd always behave the way you wanted... and just a big stick for if they complained?

Edit: LKmommy was my favourite right winger for the day, but I think you lost me with "perverted"... on here that just means gay, if that's not what you meant - you're certainly in the lead.

Where did i use the word perverted? Can you read?

 

[Quincy]

Actually when i was younger, my peers who were never spanked, still acted different when away from their parents, but they acted even worse away from them, and when they would get into massive trouble, their parents would treat them like perfect angels who would never do anything wrong, and they ended up in much worse trouble and even jail later.

So i guess some parents just think love is buying them off or putting them in their room so they dont have to deal with them and imagining themselves the perfect parents while they never teach their kid anything.

So i guess we have these kinds of stories both ways.

Teens have a habit of pushing it no matter what kind of parents they have and its called trying to assert their own complete adult independence and peer pressure and most give in to it to some degree no matter what kind of parents they had.

Yea, doing nothing won't work either, I agree there. The point is, physically harming a child only teaches them fear and allowing a child to run over you just makes them spoiled. The key is to get to know your children personally, build up trust and understanding with them and then be firm about the things they are considering doing in life. If your child loves you and trust you, they will listen. If they just fear you they are going to lie to you. If they think they can walk all over you, then they will do it.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Yea, doing nothing won't work either, I agree there. The point is, physically harming a child only teaches them fear and allowing a child to run over you just makes them spoiled. The key is to get to know your children personally, build up trust and understanding with them and then be firm about the things they are considering doing in life. If your child loves you and trust you, they will listen. If they just fear you they are going to lie to you. If they think they can walk all over you, then they will do it.

The right kind of fear is healthy. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

My parents whipped me and i am just fine and had trust and understanding with them as well.

 

[annabenedetti]

And not every parent I visited because of an allegation was from a low income, drug/crime ridden area....the most surprised by my "house call" were those of middle to uppermiddle to upperclass! "Most parents" who have things that society says are desirable (job/income from legal means, home/place to live, car, etc) the ones you are speaking of I presume??

Actually, I didn't mention any demographics at all, nor were they in my mind. I was thinking generically, without distinction. Just parents.

They are the most surprised to learn you can no longer (in some States) "wash your kids mouth out with soap". In Ohio for example if you have any history or concern and you verify it was done, the child is at "high risk of imminent harm".

I didn't know that.

I did NOT say you promote bad behavior AB.

I didn't say you did. :chuckle: I was responding to your statement that bad behavior "should NEVER be rewarded" by saying nothing I said should indicate it should be rewarded. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I disagree that it is "accepted" everywhere. Accepted by whom? Perverted, immoral, evil, self serving Godless people? Perhaps it is "allowed", minimized, or overlooked but accepted?

Allowing, minimizing and overlooking are all ways of accepting behavior, so I guess what I'm saying is that the world is full of people who don't hold my particular views or beliefs and that's the reality and that's the world my children have to live in and with. People can't go through life in a bubble, it's unreal, and eventually the bubble will pop and they may not be prepared enough to deal with the result.

 

[Lighthouse]

You accept ownership of the above remark followed by anger and excuses.

Nothing more needs being said.

Demonstrate that I did anything in anger...

LKmommy was my favourite right winger for the day, but I think you lost me with "perverted"... on here that just means gay, if that's not what you meant - you're certainly in the lead.

You're quite ignorant if you think the majority, or even the "in crowd" only uses "perverted" to refer to queers.

Where did i use the word perverted? Can you read?

He was talking to LKMommy.

 

[Quincy]

The right kind of fear is healthy. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

My parents whipped me and i am just fine and had trust and understanding with them as well.

Nah, I disagree about fear. It corrupts the soul. Glad you had a trusting and understanding relationship there though.

Actually, I didn't mention any demographics at all, nor were they in my mind. I was thinking generically, without distinction. Just parents.
I didn't know that.

I didn't say you did. :chuckle: I was responding to your statement that bad behavior "should NEVER be rewarded" by saying nothing I said should indicate it should be rewarded. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Allowing, minimizing and overlooking are all ways of accepting behavior, so I guess what I'm saying is that the world is full of people who don't hold my particular views or beliefs and that's the reality and that's the world my children have to live in and with. People can't go through life in a bubble, it's unreal, and eventually the bubble will pop and they may not be prepared enough to deal with the result.

Isolation is the oxygen mask we make our children breath in to survive :chuckle: .

 

[annabenedetti]

Isolation is the oxygen mask we make our children breath in to survive :chuckle: .

Gotta be exposed to germs if you're going to build up your immune system.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Demonstrate that I did anything in anger...

You're quite ignorant if you think the majority, or even the "in crowd" only uses "perverted" to refer to queers.


He was talking to LKMommy.

yes, but he quoted me right before he said it as if i said that.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Nah, I disagree about fear. It corrupts the soul. Glad you had a trusting and understanding relationship there though.

fear
  Use Fear in a sentence
fear
[feer] Show IPA
noun
1.
a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined; the feeling or condition of being afraid. Synonyms: foreboding, apprehension, consternation, dismay, dread, terror, fright, panic, horror, trepidation, qualm. Antonyms: courage, security, calm, intrepidity.
2.
a specific instance of or propensity for such a feeling: an abnormal fear of heights. Synonyms: phobia, aversion; bête noire, bogy, bogey, bugbear. Antonyms: liking, fondness, penchant, predilection.
3.
concern solicitude: a fear for someone's safety.
4.
reverential awe, especially toward God: the fear of God. Synonyms: awe, respect, reverence, veneration.

Again, the right kind of fear is healthy.