11-year-old Gang-Rape Victim: Should She Be Able To Legally Abort?

[Ps82]

I could not vote in the poll that goes with this thread, because it was too cut and dried. For many years families and doctors have had to make the choice of whether to protect the life of the mother or the child... and even that is up for debate.

Since the original post gave us a "what if" situation ... I add a couple of examples to show that things are not so black and white:
What if the mother was comatose... what if the mother was going to die anyway of other causes ... but the baby was healthy? What if the mother knew the risk and gave an advanced directive to her family and doctors to save the baby? etc. etc. etc.

Before the initiation of "abortion/murder on demand" these sorts of life and death issues were handled as best as possible by doctors and family members - IOW, people who understood the ramifications.

People who support abortion on demand will make up all sorts of scenarios just to try to make pro-life people seem irrational, judgmental, and cruel.

 

[Granite]

I disagree, because the unborn child's right to live has nothing to do with the rapist. Kill the rapist for all I care. Let the innocent child live.

But you're willing to make an exception if the mother's life is endangered, correct? And as a death penalty advocate you're willing to accept the reality that innocent people will die on death row. Funny how interesting these "pro-life" issues can be.

It wouldn't, but that doesn't absolve me of the responsibility to tell you

I've heard it before, pal.:cheers:

So what? Who cares?

Well that's really what this boils down to. As I've repeatedly said, the mother becomes an afterthought to absolutists. So, if an eleven-year-old pleads with her parents not to carry the child of a rapist, and is firm and clear in her decision...and she's forced to do so anyway...well, book a therapist. She's gonna need one.

This is more along the lines of what you'd expect from a Islamic state, not the 21st century west.

 

[Christian Liberty]

But you're willing to make an exception if the mother's life is endangered, correct? And as a death penalty advocate you're willing to accept the reality that innocent people will die on death row. Funny how interesting these "pro-life" issues can be.

I'm not in favor of the death penalty the way its currently done, but yes, there will always be a possibility of killing innocents. There's also a chance that imprisonment will lead to an innocent person sometimes being kidnapped (I'm against prisons, but not for this reason) that a fine will lead to an innocent person being stolen from (i'm against fines to the government, but not against fines to restitute the party wronged by a crime, but again, not for this reason). There's always a chance human justice systems will make mistake. I'd always err on the side of innocents, and in many cases, I do believe errors in judgment should actually be punishable, but at the end of the day... yeah, there's always a chance for a mistake.

There's a clear difference between that and deliberately killing an innocent person, even for me.

I've heard it before, pal.:cheers:

I told it to Bright Raven too, I had to be fair

Well that's really what this boils down to. As I've repeatedly said, the mother becomes an afterthought to absolutists. So, if an eleven-year-old pleads with her parents not to carry the child of a rapist, and is firm and clear in her decision...and she's forced to do so anyway...well, book a therapist. She's gonna need one.

Go ahead and book a therapist, and yeah, I understand that. I'm not trying to minimize what she's gone through. But at the end of the day, you don't get to commit murder just because you committed rape.

This is more along the lines of what you'd expect from a Islamic state, not the 21st century west.

You know what my political views are already, and you've almost certainly seen my responses to Lighthouse on several issues, even if you're ignoring him (Unless you're ignoring me too). I'm clearly no theonomist or theocrat. I have laissez faire views on basically everything... except murder, theft, fraud, exc.

Abortion falls under "Murder."

 

[Granite]

I'm not in favor of the death penalty the way its currently done, but yes, there will always be a possibility of killing innocents.

I'd say guarantee is a better way to put it.

Do you favor an abortion exception for mother's life/health reasons?

There's always a chance human justice systems will make mistake. I'd always err on the side of innocents, and in many cases, I do believe errors in judgment should actually be punishable, but at the end of the day... yeah, there's always a chance for a mistake.

The innocent mother, however, just has to suck it up. If she wants to abort, if her parents do, if her family supports the decision--tough. I'd just submit this approach constitutes a pretty significant error in judgment. It goes beyond hard-hearted, or absolutist, or stiff-necked. It's a love affair with some misguided concepts of "mercy" and "sanctity" that ignore hard, cold reality, and are vicious and unmerciful in practice.

There's a clear difference between that and deliberately killing an innocent person, even for me.

I see. If we execute some felon ignorantly or accidentally, fine. But we can't spare an eleven-year-old any more anguish, now can we.

Go ahead and book a therapist...

Because tough luck, kid. You didn't matter once you were sexually assaulted. You were an also-ran. Second-rate. An after thought.

What you and yours wanted for you at that point didn't matter. Because life's sacred. Just not yours, for the next nine months.

Whether you realize it or not your stance on this issue inevitably diminishes the mother.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Do you favor an abortion exception for mother's life/health reasons?

Sorry, I didn't mean to dodge this question.

I'd say that IF there were a case where it was a choice between the mother's life and the child's, I'd support the mother's right to choose herself, and to do so would be self defense.

I'm not sure how "Abortion" is medically defined, but I seriously doubt deliberately killing the child would ever save the mother's life. Eviction is another matter.

The innocent mother, however, just has to suck it up. If she wants to abort, if her parents do, if her family supports the decision--tough. I'd just submit this approach constitutes a pretty significant error in judgment. It goes beyond hard-hearted, or absolutist, or stiff-necked. It's a love affair with some misguided concepts of "mercy" and "sanctity" that ignore hard, cold reality, and are vicious and unmerciful in practice.

She's not innocent if she tries to murder her child.

I see. If we execute some felon ignorantly or accidentally, fine. But we can't spare an eleven-year-old any more anguish, now can we.

By deliberately killing an innocent person? No, "we" can't. Intentions do matter. Deliberately killing an innocent person is indeed different than intending to kill a guilty person and accidentally killing an innocent person.

That said, I didn't say "Fine." In fact, I'd probably prosecute the judge for manslaughter, at least in some instances if not all. But manslaughter, which is the ignorant killing of the innocent, is not the same as murder, which is to do so deliberately.

Because tough luck, kid. You didn't matter once you were sexually assaulted. You were an also-ran. Second-rate. An after thought.

What you and yours wanted for you at that point didn't matter. Because life's sacred. Just not yours, for the next nine months.

Whether you realize it or not your stance on this issue inevitably diminishes the mother.

And instead you would say the unborn NEVER getting to live is a better outcome. Its not OK to murder even if you were sexually assaulted. Period.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

That "someone" is a kid. :dead: How much trauma would you like the child to endure?

Dumb question from someone who would take that same little girl, not tell her what is going on but take her to a strange place, make her undress, lay her down with a stranger who will drug her and manipulate those already injured parts until she screams - putting fingers and instruments in there, then you'd take her home, tell her it's fine... meanwhile she's hurting, bleeding, extra confused, etc.

It's one thing to be raped by strangers, but it's another level of misery and broken trust to be taken by a family member for further torment.

If my 11 yrd old grandchild got raped, I would make sure she had a D&C ASAP. I wouldn't even let her know there could be a pregnancy. There is a place in the Law for MERCY, and if ever there was a case, it's this one.

And what about the wishes of the 11 year old child's mother!? You are the granny. Do you mean you would do this if you had custody? Without talking to the girls parents?

You do know, right, that she'll figure out what that painful, scary doctor's visit was about one day, right? It's going to be in her medical history forever.

 

[bybee]

Present the evidence you claim is conclusive. What are the specific life-threatening complications?

1. Immature reproductive organs.
2. Trauma to the reproductive organs due to the rape.
a. The bridge of flesh between the cervical opening and the anal opening may be torn and the perineum may be torn thereby leading to disembowelment. This may require multiple surgeries to correct.
3. Due to trauma there may be severe infections which cause fallopian tubes to occlude risking tubal pregnancy.

Yes, in some cases an 11 year old little girl may carry a pregnancy to term. What makes you think she will view the developing fetus as anything but an unwanted uninvited parasite?
She will carry emotional scars for the rest of her life.
If you care to do some research on child sexual abuse you will, no doubt, come away depressed and saddened by how vulnerable children are in our society.
It has been posited that murdering the rapist is legitimate. Yet you are then murdering the father of the baby which the female child must bear.
What story shall be told to the baby? Your father was a rapist that is how you came into this world. What shall you become?

 

[Arthur Brain]

Dumb question from someone who would take that same little girl, not tell her what is going on but take her to a strange place, make her undress, lay her down with a stranger who will drug her and manipulate those already injured parts until she screams - putting fingers and instruments in there, then you'd take her home, tell her it's fine... meanwhile she's hurting, bleeding, extra confused, etc.

It's one thing to be raped by strangers, but it's another level of misery and broken trust to be taken by a family member for further torment.



And what about the wishes of the 11 year old child's mother!?

You do know, right, that she'll figure out what that painful, scary doctor's visit was about one day, right? It's going to be in her medical history forever.

Um, if she's in the earliest stages of conception then why would she need to be subjected to the horrors you're describing above? I thought there were drugs that would stop pregnancy at such an early stage?

I don't think this an easy issue at all but you do seem to be over dramatising that particular aspect here...

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Um, if she's in the earliest stages of conception then why would she need to be subjected to the horrors you're describing above? I thought there were drugs that would stop pregnancy at such an early stage?

I don't think this an easy issue at all but you do seem to be over dramatising that particular aspect here...

Let's talk about the abortion pills. From pro abortion sources I read that the pain they cause is like that of miscarriage. Miscarriage hurts and is generally considered to require a D&C to ensure the safety of the mother. There will be passing of large blood clots and there will probably be need for a follow-up exam and quite probably they will find a need for a D&C.

If, God forbid, abortion takes place all of this will happen soon after the assault with a battered little body exposed to this extra re-trauma, rather than letting her heal for the length of her gestation to birth a live baby with a non-swollen, non-beat up cervix and vagina.

However, that is irrelevant considering she was hypothetically proposing to take her (without any informed consent) granddaughter to get a D&C as the method of assassination, making my comments all the more relevant.

I really wouldn't count on sparing her suffering by giving her a pill.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Let's talk about the abortion pills. From pro abortion sources I read that the pain they cause is like that of miscarriage. Miscarriage hurts and is generally considered to require a D&C to ensure the safety of the mother. There will be passing of large blood clots and there will probably be need for a follow-up exam and quite probably they will find a need for a D&C.

If, God forbid, abortion takes place all of this will happen soon after the assault with a battered little body exposed to this extra re-trauma, rather than letting her heal for the length of her gestation to birth a live baby with a non-swollen, non-beat up cervix and vagina.

However, that is irrelevant considering she was hypothetically proposing to take her (without any informed consent) granddaughter to get a D&C as the method of assassination, making my comments all the more relevant.

I really wouldn't count on sparing her suffering by giving her a pill.

Have you got a source that confirms this takes place at such an early stage in conception? Like a day or two after such a hideous rape? I've known two people who have had miscarriages and they were obviously awful on both a physical and mental level. Both were several weeks into the pregnancy when the tragedy happened though.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

I notice that the pro-abort women on this thread are ignoring me, a woman with 6 kids, while slamming the men's opinions for not having uteruses.

1. Immature reproductive organs.

Immature? We're talking spontaneous conception without drugs. With proper nutrition and loving care for the girl the hormones in the body will prepare her for birth.

2. Trauma to the reproductive organs due to the rape.

So abortion with traumatized organs is going to be better than letting her heal as she carries the baby?

a. The bridge of flesh between the cervical opening and the anal opening may be torn and the perineum may be torn thereby leading to disembowelment. This may require multiple surgeries to correct.

And abortion won't pose risks of disembowelment or further infection?

3. Due to trauma there may be severe infections which cause fallopian tubes to occlude risking tubal pregnancy.

Not applicable because no prolifer here is asking that she die of ectopic pregnancy.

What makes you think she will view the developing fetus as anything but an unwanted uninvited parasite?

What makes her play with dolls and pretend to be a mommy?

She will carry emotional scars for the rest of her life.

Abortion will only add to those scars.

If you care to do some research on child sexual abuse you will, no doubt, come away depressed and saddened by how vulnerable children are in our society.

Abortion allows rapists to get away with it while destroying the living evidence.

It has been posited that murdering the rapist is legitimate. Yet you are then murdering the father of the baby which the female child must bear. What story shall be told to the baby? Your father was a rapist that is how you came into this world. What shall you become?

So you are just going to put the baby out of his/her misery while teaching the little girl that her baby is only valued if the daddy has good character? That the worth of a human is the reputation of the parents?

Will she wonder if she was good enough, maybe she could have saved her baby?

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Have you got a source that confirms this takes place at such an early stage in conception? Like a day or two after such a hideous rape? I've known two people who have had miscarriages and they were obviously awful on both a physical and mental level. Both were several weeks into the pregnancy when the tragedy happened though.

We are not talking about a healthy woman, we are talking about a freshly raped little girl and we can't assume that cramping and bleeding at a time like that wouldn't be horrendous compared to a normal period, even if it was a 4 week miscarriage.

Her uterus is in no condition to cramp and bleed, it may be lacerated, swollen and need to first heal.

 

[Doormat]

I m a nurse and I do know that the evidence is quite conclusive that an 11 year old who becomes pregnant is at very high risk of complications including loss of both mother and child.

Present the evidence you claim is conclusive. What are the specific life-threatening complications?

1. Immature reproductive organs.

An 11 year old girl that can conceive has experienced precocious puberty. Your first argument is not conclusive evidence of a life-threatening complication of pregnancy or labor for 11 year old girls.

2. Trauma to the reproductive organs due to the rape.
a. The bridge of flesh between the cervical opening and the anal opening may be torn and the perineum may be torn thereby leading to disembowelment. This may require multiple surgeries to correct.
3. Due to trauma there may be severe infections which cause fallopian tubes to occlude risking tubal pregnancy.

Your claim was this: "...the evidence is quite conclusive that an 11 year old who becomes pregnant is at very high risk of complications..." Therefore, your second and third arguments regarding rape injuries are irrelevant, and you have provided no conclusive evidence for your claim.

Yes, in some cases an 11 year old little girl may carry a pregnancy to term.

No. Generally, an 11 year old that experienced precocious puberty can safely carry a pregnancy to term.

 

[illusionray]

Abortion will only add to those scars.

Abortion allows rapists to get away with it while destroying the living evidence.

That's a very harsh, one-dimensional view though. You have to understand the trauma of carrying the result of a rape for 9 months and then giving birth to what is the child of the rapist. What makes you think a girl can sleep for any of those 9 months and then rest of her life in any peace if she doesn't get rid of it? Some might be able to cope, but I can't imagine most of them dealing with something like that.

 

[Doormat]

Um, if she's in the earliest stages of conception then why would she need to be subjected to the horrors you're describing above? I thought there were drugs that would stop pregnancy at such an early stage?

First, the poster she was addressing specifically wrote about surgical abortion. Second, regarding medical abortion, the efficacy and safety of the drug mifepristone, has not been tested on girls that young. Furthermore, there are contraindications for mifepristone, and the possibility exists the girl could still need curettage.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

That's a very harsh, one-dimensional view though. You have to understand the trauma of carrying the result of a rape for 9 months and then giving birth to what is the child of the rapist. What makes you think a girl can sleep for any of those 9 months and then rest of her life in any peace if she doesn't get rid of it? Some might be able to cope, but I can't imagine most of them dealing with something like that.

This is a very old-fashioned bigotry. I don't think the little girl is going to be into eugenics or blaming the baby for being a bastard.

 

[bybee]

An 11 year old girl that can conceive has experienced precocious puberty. Your first argument is not conclusive evidence of a life-threatening complication of pregnancy or labor for 11 year old girls.



Your claim was this: "...the evidence is quite conclusive that an 11 year old who becomes pregnant is at very high risk of complications..." Therefore, your second and third arguments regarding rape injuries are irrelevant, and you have provided no conclusive evidence for your claim.



No. Generally, an 11 year old that experienced precocious puberty can safely carry a pregnancy to term.

Perhaps you can present some evidence to back up your assertions?

 

[Lighthouse]

The solution for an eleven year old pregnant rape victim?
NO!!!!!

:BRAVO:

Screw the Qu'ran

It has its uses; like when you run out of toilet paper...

 

[Doormat]

Generally, an 11 year old that experienced precocious puberty can safely carry a pregnancy to term.

Perhaps you can present some evidence to back up your assertions?

Here is a list of known biological mothers under 11 years of age. I already provided you a link explaining precocious puberty. What more evidence do you need?

 

[Granite]

I'd say that IF there were a case where it was a choice between the mother's life and the child's, I'd support the mother's right to choose herself, and to do so would be self defense.

So it's not abortion per se you've got a problem with, nor do you have an issue rolling the dice when it comes to killing innocent people on death row. And yet you still call yourself a "pro-life" individual. You're also calling for charging abortionists and executing the rapist.

Ya know it's funny, but usually the more strident and self-proclaimed "pro-life" absolutists are the ones who talk the most about death. They're also the ones carrying the pictures of corpses.

I'm not sure how "Abortion" is medically defined, but I seriously doubt deliberately killing the child would ever save the mother's life.

So you don't know a thing about ectopic pregnancies, which are rare but not unheard of.

She's not innocent if she tries to murder her child.

Easy for you to say (and despicable considering what she's gone through). You're not the eleven-year-old who was just gang raped, now are you. You're an outsider who thinks he knows how to best direct the course of her life, and let her wishes be damned. An eleven-year-old brutalized in this fashion stays innocent indefinitely, Rand. You're talking either like a really clueless kid or a hard-hearted old fart. Can't tell which.

That said, I didn't say "Fine."

Right. You used more than one word to make clear you didn't care about the mother or what she wanted or her anguish or her suffering or what she'd been through or how potentially hellish the next nine months would be for her. My mistake.