“diversity is more important than your security.”
- Thread starter musterion
- Start date
To be fair you were complaining about others, but the point was to spur you to write what you wanted to read. Start the conversation you mean to have. I'm as guilty as anyone of engaging in the snippier side of repartee, though I prefer the amicable variety and preferably tied into real and substantive points.
Now you're talking.
Agreed. The problem is that this article can't be that starting point. So start without it.
I'd say that the conservatives are right, though not singularly about Muslims, but about immigrants in general, who are nearly twice as likely to live in poverty, the wellspring of a disproportionate amount of criminal, especially violent criminal behavior. Now some Muslims will undoubtedly use the cover of legitimate immigrants to enter in order to do harm. But the question becomes one of principle. Do we seal our borders out of fear of what the minority might do? If so then do we restrict it to Muslims? Is Muslim immigration a source of criminal activity above and beyond other immigrants?
I don't know many people to my left who aren't aware of the danger or who think everyone nervous enough to have qualms is a racist. France has already paid for its immigration principle in blood. They haven't shut their borders. They're saying to the legitimate refugees what we should have said to the Jews we turned back once upon a time.
Where's your hard data on that? I saw an anonymous police source on the rape figure. From good data come verifiable conclusions. And from those conclusions can come reasonable restraints, where warranted.
The Handbook of Crime Correlates has immigrant populations raising crime rates in Europe while Canadian and U.S. immigrants actually have lower incidents of criminal activity. It looks like the origin country has a lot to do with it.
I think points like that need qualifiers. First, good data. Then, "some". Because the least unified voices I've ever heard are among liberals who vary almost as proudly as conservatives raise the singular flag where possible.
Depends on the numbers and how they compare. I'd say an alarmist and reactionary absent compelling data.
Let me turn that around. A friend of mine said why entertain even a relatively small risk of real harm. I noted that this is never an argument gun owners accept in relation to their right to bear arms.
That's one response. But is it a rational one? If most immigrant populations pose a risk of an increase in crime and are twice as likely as native populations to find themselves in poverty and we know that poverty is the disproportionate seed of criminal activity then you could make the argument that all immigration should be suspended and that only a few highly screened individuals should be permitted to enter.
Of course the problem with that is that from these immigrant populationss, across our history, have come some of the most innovative and brilliant minds and enterprises.
"An authoritative 1997 study by the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) concluded that immigration delivered a “significant positive gain” to the U.S. economy." Cato Institute (link)
And the impact of an anti immigration policy on our economy could be sizable, from students to tourists.
I disagree with any conclusion that predates substantive, serious consideration and facts in support. So in part I have to, though I think you raise issues that bear scrutiny and that's always a good thing, provided we're prepared, on all sides, to learn from the findings and we take care how we compile the data.
Now that's not a statement I can or should be expected to respect. That's not an invitation to the discourse and discussion you say you want. It's declaration wrapped in an insult.
If you want better, do better.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I am grown up, Artie, so don't bother trying to hide your tears from me. I know how tender you are, and I recognize a snivel when I see one.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Yep. Take the house, take the kids- be denied social services, quotas, and every other ridiculous thing these so called under privileged women have.
Seems fair to me. If she wants to be that selfish, let her slave by it.
That's not pompous, that's square. But I understand that feminists such as yourself have absolutely no idea of the concept of 'fair' or even, ironically, 'equality'.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Need a hanky?
Awesome! Because the opinion of a mentally deficient male who keeps sneaking in the forum that he was clearly not welcome in (umpteen times) with newly made usernames is so very important.
Oh, you poor thing. Such unfairness thrown your way. If it makes you feel any better, I am already over it.
Brilliant comeback. Nah, I'm just kidding you. Your wit is as
sharp as an egg yolk.
Did you get turned down at your High School Prom? Is that why
you're angry at the Ladies?
A Gentleman, you're not.
I'm not convinced that all immigrant demographics are created equal. Documented vs. undocumented immigrants? Muslim vs. Catholic immigrants? Mexican vs. British?
That said, you basically admit this point later on in your posting, though you restrict your claim to "country of origin." I doubt that's the whole truth, though. A legal, documented immigrant from Mexico is probably less likely to be a criminal than an undocumented fence-jumper.
But I don't know. I don't have the statistics. It seems plausible, though.
Again, I deny that all minorities are created equal. Those weren't undocumented Mexican illegals harassing women in Cologne. The problem with Muslims is that, in addition to the fact that they come from crappy countries, and in addition to the fact that they tend to be poor and uneducated, they also come from a culture and hold to a "religious" doctrine which is particularly dangerous and hostile to the West and to western values.
Do you honestly want me to believe that Syrian Eastern Catholic immigrants would be as dangerous as Syrian Muslim immigrants?
Because, again, I'm pretty sure that those weren't Syrian Eastern Catholic immigrants harassing women in Cologne. Just saying.
At any rate, I believe I've been quite clear in my message:
Expel all Muslim immigrants from the West.
I posted my response to you, i.e., the long post to which you responded, to a predominately liberal forum (I posted it as a thread). It was locked and I received a warning for posting it: trolling and troll-bait within an hour and a half of my posting it.
And I've seen liberals talking about this on TOL and other places.
"Racist" is a pretty common term that liberals like to throw out in these circumstances.
I'm sorry, was I accusing French politicians of being particularly bright? What's your point?
Funny, I don't believe that Jewish immigrants were harassing women at Cologne.
It's commonly repeated by conservative sources.
That said, I just googled to see whether Snopes had anything debunking it, and I couldn't find anything. I did, however, come across a Snopes forum discussion on the claim that 70% of all rapes in Denmark are committed by immigrants...which nobody could seem to debunk.
I google searched the swedish rape thing, and liberals tend to respond by saying that the swedish definition of rape is tighter, and more women tend to report it.
Nonetheless, at least one party in Sweden does cite at least one study indicating that Muslim immigrants are much more likely to commit rape (5.5 times more likely).
Muslim immigrants are dangerous.
I agree. A small risk of harm, in and of itself, is not a sufficient argument either way.
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ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
no, that was you :noid:
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
the sad thing is, she didn't used to be this way
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey | 2010 Summary Report | Executive Summary
Number and Sex
of Perpetrators
• Across all types of violence, the
majority of both female and male victims reported experiencing violence from one perpetrator.
• Across all types of violence, the majority of female victims reported that their perpetrators were male.
• Male rape victims and male victims of non-contact unwanted sexual experiences reported predominantly male perpetrators. Nearly half of stalking victimizations against males were also perpetrated by males. Perpetrators of other forms of violence against males were mostly female.
Violence in the 12 Months Prior to Taking the Survey
• One percent, or approximately
1.3 million women, reported being raped by any perpetrator in the 12 months prior to taking the survey.
• Approximately 1 in 20 women and men (5.6% and 5.3%, respectively) experienced sexual violence victimization other than rape by any perpetrator in the
12 months prior to taking the survey.
• About 4% of women and 1.3%
of men were stalked in the 12 months prior to taking the survey.
• An estimated 1 in 17 women
and 1 in 20 men (5.9% and 5.0%, respectively) experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner in the 12 months prior to taking the survey.
State-Level Estimates
• Across all types of violence examined in this report, state- level estimates varied with lifetime estimates for women ranging from 11.4% to 29.2% for rape; 28.9% to 58% for sexual violence other than rape; and 25.3% to 49.1% for rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner.
• For men, lifetime estimates ranged from 10.8% to 33.7% for sexual violence other than rape; and 17.4% to 41.2% for rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner.
Number and Sex
of Perpetrators
• Across all types of violence, the
majority of both female and male victims reported experiencing violence from one perpetrator.
• Across all types of violence, the majority of female victims reported that their perpetrators were male.
• Male rape victims and male victims of non-contact unwanted sexual experiences reported predominantly male perpetrators. Nearly half of stalking victimizations against males were also perpetrated by males. Perpetrators of other forms of violence against males were mostly female.
Violence in the 12 Months Prior to Taking the Survey
• One percent, or approximately
1.3 million women, reported being raped by any perpetrator in the 12 months prior to taking the survey.
• Approximately 1 in 20 women and men (5.6% and 5.3%, respectively) experienced sexual violence victimization other than rape by any perpetrator in the
12 months prior to taking the survey.
• About 4% of women and 1.3%
of men were stalked in the 12 months prior to taking the survey.
• An estimated 1 in 17 women
and 1 in 20 men (5.9% and 5.0%, respectively) experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner in the 12 months prior to taking the survey.
State-Level Estimates
• Across all types of violence examined in this report, state- level estimates varied with lifetime estimates for women ranging from 11.4% to 29.2% for rape; 28.9% to 58% for sexual violence other than rape; and 25.3% to 49.1% for rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner.
• For men, lifetime estimates ranged from 10.8% to 33.7% for sexual violence other than rape; and 17.4% to 41.2% for rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
I saw what you did there, sod. Twice. :chuckle:
The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey | 2010 Summary Report | Executive Summary
Number and Sex of Perpetrators
• Across all types of violence, the majority of both female and male victims reported experiencing violence from one perpetrator.
• Across all types of violence, the majority of female victims reported that their perpetrators were male.
• Male rape victims and male victims of non-contact unwanted sexual experiences reported predominantly male perpetrators. Nearly half of stalking victimizations against males were also perpetrated by males. Perpetrators of other forms of violence against males were mostly female.
Violence in the 12 Months Prior to Taking the Survey
• One percent, or approximately 1.3 million women, reported being raped by any perpetrator in the 12 months prior to taking the survey.
• Approximately 1 in 20 women and men (5.6% and 5.3%, respectively) experienced sexual violence victimization other than rape by any perpetrator in the 12 months prior to taking the survey.
• About 4% of women and 1.3% of men were stalked in the 12 months prior to taking the survey.
• An estimated 1 in 17 women and 1 in 20 men (5.9% and 5.0%, respectively) experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner in the 12 months prior to taking the survey.
State-Level Estimates
• Across all types of violence examined in this report, state- level estimates varied with lifetime estimates for women ranging from 11.4% to 29.2% for rape; 28.9% to 58% for sexual violence other than rape; and 25.3% to 49.1% for rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner.
• For men, lifetime estimates ranged from 10.8% to 33.7% for sexual violence other than rape; and 17.4% to 41.2% for rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner.
The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey | 2010 Summary Report | Executive Summary
Number and Sex of Perpetrators
• Across all types of violence, the majority of both female and male victims reported experiencing violence from one perpetrator.
• Across all types of violence, the majority of female victims reported that their perpetrators were male.
• Male rape victims and male victims of non-contact unwanted sexual experiences reported predominantly male perpetrators. Nearly half of stalking victimizations against males were also perpetrated by males. Perpetrators of other forms of violence against males were mostly female.
Violence in the 12 Months Prior to Taking the Survey
• One percent, or approximately 1.3 million women, reported being raped by any perpetrator in the 12 months prior to taking the survey.
• Approximately 1 in 20 women and men (5.6% and 5.3%, respectively) experienced sexual violence victimization other than rape by any perpetrator in the 12 months prior to taking the survey.
• About 4% of women and 1.3% of men were stalked in the 12 months prior to taking the survey.
• An estimated 1 in 17 women and 1 in 20 men (5.9% and 5.0%, respectively) experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner in the 12 months prior to taking the survey.
State-Level Estimates
• Across all types of violence examined in this report, state- level estimates varied with lifetime estimates for women ranging from 11.4% to 29.2% for rape; 28.9% to 58% for sexual violence other than rape; and 25.3% to 49.1% for rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner.
• For men, lifetime estimates ranged from 10.8% to 33.7% for sexual violence other than rape; and 17.4% to 41.2% for rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
well, let's see what the CDC has to say about it:
looks like the CDC says you're full of crap :idunno:
Now you're approaching the point of my questions. We need to have a solid footing on the subject or we're just trading in fear and loathing of the other.
Which sort are less equal and by what measure? There are obvious answers that will likely be supported by objective data and then there's the other. My focus is on distinguishing between the two.
Doesn't establish a rule and beyond that is a causality problem though. The data should lead us through factors and allow for a more inclusive understanding of the problem, to the extent it exists and approaches the rule.
A sentence that broad rarely contains an ending steeped in dispassionate observation. Maybe the latter is your religious and/or personal bias in play. Stick to data.
Can Catholics commit murder? Rape? The rest is data.
I saw a white guy set fire to a field. You can't trust white guys near your fields. A smaller version of your problem here.
And without that data you've reached a conclusion.You're educated enough to understand the mistake you're making here and have had it pointed out in any event. What you're suggesting works an injustice against those who have not by their actions merited the exclusion. Beyond that it's impractical. You want to start building the great wall of Europe?
So most Muslim immigrants and now most liberals?
My point on France is that though they're faced with actual damage they haven't responded as you are and they haven't abandoned the open nature of a free society.I'm sorry, was I accusing French politicians of being particularly bright? What's your point?
Neither are most Muslim immigrants.
So if most liberal sources actually did suggest that conservatives were racist that would make it true? That's your standard of proof as an academician?
lain:The rejection would be the same data that would sustain a claim: data.
Great. Link to it.
Some doubtless are. But so is the tendency to stereotype out of our internal dispositions instead of looking for the truth, comfortable or not, contained in objective data.
No, it doesn't. The rule isn't found in an attempt to cherry pick to fuel your person problems. Even in the year you're noting men comprised only 40% of those men were the victims of severe violence.
Anna has the side bar on who is doing what, by gender. So I won't revisit it.
A 1995-96 study in all fifty states found that 25% of women and 7.6% of men had been the victims of rape or other violence from their former spouses, partners or otherwise romantically associated individuals.
And while the more serious violence is disproportionately found among women victims, there's no shortage of men suffering some degree of it.
The National Coalition Against Domestic Violence notes that:
1 in 3 women and 1 in 4 men will suffer some form of physical violence at the hands of a partner in their lifetime and that 1 in 5 and 1 in 71 men will be raped within their lifetime. 19.3 and 5.1 million men have been stalked. 72% of all murder-suicides involve an intimate partner; 94% of the victims of these murder suicides are female.
Or, again, women are the disproportionate victims of domestic violence.