What is Jesus saying here?

Lon

Well-known member
I'm just saying that if Jesus defines Himself in terms of time in a passage, it seems like we shouldn't use His words beyond what He meant them for. The connection to God is apparent, but the description of timelessness isn't, imho, as He uses time to express it.
It HAS to mean both or neither is true. Both are true.
 

Derf

Well-known member
It HAS to mean both or neither is true. Both are true.
I'm having to review where we were on this.

You're saying that Jesus is equating Himself with God, and because God is timeless, Jesus is claiming to be timeless.
(the other option is that Jesus is NOT equating Himself with God, and is not claiming to be timeless.)

If God is "timeless", then Jesus' claim might inherently mean He's claiming timelessness, but the passage doesn't make that claim directly.

So it can't be used as a proof for the timelessness of God, anymore than every other instance of "I AM".

There are some significant problems with a "timeless" God, such as that Jesus is still on the cross, and that God, having forsaken Jesus still on the cross, is forever in a state of forsaking Him.

I suppose that still might be the case, but the bible doesn't support it, anymore than Jesus, using a time-sequence description, was claiming to do things out of sequence. I.e. if Jesus had claimed that Abraham's almost-sacrifice of Isaac was on schedule for the next day when talking to the Pharisees, in contradiction to the biblical account, and we had to recognize both sources as equally accurate, then it would point to a timelessness.
 

Lon

Well-known member
I'm having to review where we were on this.

You're saying that Jesus is equating Himself with God, and because God is timeless, Jesus is claiming to be timeless.
(the other option is that Jesus is NOT equating Himself with God, and is not claiming to be timeless.)

If God is "timeless", then Jesus' claim might inherently mean He's claiming timelessness, but the passage doesn't make that claim directly.

So it can't be used as a proof for the timelessness of God, anymore than every other instance of "I AM".

There are some significant problems with a "timeless" God, such as that Jesus is still on the cross, and that God, having forsaken Jesus still on the cross, is forever in a state of forsaking Him.

I suppose that still might be the case, but the bible doesn't support it, anymore than Jesus, using a time-sequence description, was claiming to do things out of sequence. I.e. if Jesus had claimed that Abraham's almost-sacrifice of Isaac was on schedule for the next day when talking to the Pharisees, in contradiction to the biblical account, and we had to recognize both sources as equally accurate, then it would point to a timelessness.
I'm saying that Jesus said "before Abraham 'was' I 'Am.'" It means 1) I Am and 2 Am Both
 

Lon

Well-known member
Yes, I know. But it doesn't mean that.
Why? What reason? A theological construct? I'm saying contextually and grammatically you cannot rule out 1) that "I Am" is a given and 2) that before Abraham 'was' I 'am.' Only a desire to have a time-constraint upon God would have anybody arguing the point. There is no necessity to argue it otherwise, the text gives both of these.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Why? What reason? A theological construct? I'm saying contextually and grammatically you cannot rule out 1) that "I Am" is a given and 2) that before Abraham 'was' I 'am.' Only a desire to have a time-constraint upon God would have anybody arguing the point. There is no necessity to argue it otherwise, the text gives both of these.
I told you. It's not necessary for the wording, and it doesn't naturally come from the wording. The text only gives "both" when your theological construct makes it do so, to use your words.

"Before Abraham was" places the context in time. "I Am" describes the who. Was the "I Am" existing before Abraham was? Yes. That's all it says. Our interpretation of what God means by His name carries all the rest of the connotation.
 
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Lon

Well-known member
I told you. It's not necessary for the wording, and it doesn't naturally come from the wording.
It doesn't matter what you told me. It matters 'what Jesus said.'
The text only gives "both" when your theological construct makes it do so, to use your words.
Incorrect. It is all true or 'half' true.
It HAS to mean both or neither is true. Both are true.
Which makes more sense? When committed to an idea? No, you are very wrong. Grammar is correct whether you want it to be or not. I don't have to do anything BUT appeal to the text. Look: "was" "Am" given by the text. You don't 'get' to make the text not say what you don't want it to say. That just isn't going to happen. The text itself is the clarity. I nor you can change text. It is what it is. No amount of 'I told you' can make Jesus' words go away. Moreover, why would you want to do that anyway? For a theological construct???
"Before Abraham was" places the context in time. "I Am" describes the who.
AND the when. Sorry. Fact.
Was the "I Am" existing before Abraham was? Yes. That's all it says.
Incorrect, that is your bias and it is NOT supported by the text. You've made a jump in YOUR theology, and while I sympathize, it is NOT in fact supported by the text. This, among other scriptures is EXACTLY why I cannot make the same theological leap. Scripture just doesn't allow it and it certainly doesn't here.
Our interpretation of what God means by His name carries all the rest of the connotation.
ESPECIALLY when it is timeless in the given! Do you ACTUALLY understand that Jesus had JUST said "Before?????" Do you actually grasp that? Do you grasp the emphasis of HIS choosing??? Can you POSSIBLY not grasp HIS context? HIS CONTEXT WAS TIME by Abraham's mention has there is absolutely nothing you could say that could make me second guess or doubt "before." Nothing. The Lord Jesus Christ said it. By necessity, it has to be the end of it. OUR LORD Jesus Christ was that clear. Listen to Him.
 
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Derf

Well-known member
It doesn't matter what you told me. It matters 'what Jesus said.'
Well, that was my point. What did Jesus say, considering his audience, which I read recently that you agree with.

I don't understand your two statements that follow. How can the same thing be either all true or half true while also being all true or none true?
Incorrect. It is all true or 'half' true
It HAS to mean both or neither is true. Both are true.
Which makes more sense? When committed to an idea? No, you are very wrong. Grammar is correct whether you want it to be or not. I don't have to do anything BUT appeal to the text. Look: "was" "Am" given by the text. You don't 'get' to make the text not say what you don't want it to say. That just isn't going to happen. The text itself is the clarity. I nor you can change text. It is what it is. No amount of 'I told you' can make Jesus' words go away. Moreover, why would you want to do that anyway? For a theological construct???
I think you are arguing my point for me. I admit it could apply in my case, too--do you admit it could apply in your case?

AND the when. Sorry. Fact.
Yes, the when was "before", as you express so eloquently further down.
Incorrect, that is your bias and it is NOT supported by the text. You've made a jump in YOUR theology, and while I sympathize, it is NOT in fact supported by the text. This, among other scriptures is EXACTLY why I cannot make the same theological leap. Scripture just doesn't allow it and it certainly doesn't here.
ESPECIALLY when it is timeless in the given!
If timeless is a given, you're admitting it's your theological construct that drives your interpretation.
Do you ACTUALLY understand that Jesus had JUST said "Before?????" Do you actually grasp that? Do you grasp the emphasis of HIS choosing??? Can you POSSIBLY not grasp HIS context? HIS CONTEXT WAS TIME by Abraham's mention has there is absolutely nothing you could say that could make me second guess or doubt "before."
I wasn't questioning "before". It was part of my point.
The Lord Jesus Christ said it. By necessity, it has to be the end of it. OUR LORD Jesus Christ was that clear. Listen to Him.
Jesus was clear He existed before Abraham was, and He was clear that He is God. He wasn't so clear about timelessness, unless you import more meaning into His words than He intended, from what I can see.

Timelessness doesn't have a "before".
 

Hilltrot

Well-known member
John 8:58
New King James Version

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
First, The passage itself says "before Abraham was, I am he." The "I AM" in all caps is a much later commentary added to the Bible.

If Jesus was saying that he was God and remain cryptic for some reason, he would have said "before the world was I am he." This would indicate his equality with God. However, he said "before Abraham was, I am he." The makes Jesus greater than Abraham which he is. This makes better sense with the 53rd verse.

There is a common misconception pushed onto this passage that the people were going to stone Jesus because he said he was God. Within the context of the book, that makes no sense. In the very next chapter, the Jewish leaders were throwing anyone who said Jesus was the Messiah out of the synagogues - not that Jesus was God.

Next, we have Jesus's personal style. Whenever people correctly identified him, he would respond in the affirmative. John 4:26, John 13:13, John 13:19, John 18:5-8, Matthew 16:17, Matthew 26:64, Matthew 27:11, etc. Similarly, 8:58 was an answer to the question in 8:53.
 

Right Divider

Body part
There is a common misconception pushed onto this passage that the people were going to stone Jesus because he said he was God. Within the context of the book, that makes no sense. In the very next chapter, the Jewish leaders were throwing anyone who said Jesus was the Messiah out of the synagogues - not that Jesus was God.
The Messiah is God. I think that you are the one misconceiving the passage.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Is not a scripture passage I have ever seen. Do you have special revelation?
Isa 9:6-7 KJV For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (7) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Jer 23:5-6 KJV Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. (6) In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
 
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Hilltrot

Well-known member
Isa 9:6-7 KJV For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (7) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Well, let's go through this passage. The capitalization of god in this passage is an editorial commentary on the passage and not the actual meaning conveyed by the passage. The first two parts - "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given" - clearly identifies a human being - not God. Little "g" god does occur in the Bible and in the context of the passage makes far more sense - see Ezekiel 31:11 as well as Jesus's explanation in John 10:34-38. Martin Luther more properly translated this passage as "divine hero".

"The everlasting Father" is even more problematic especially with the capital F. Now, this translation is saying that Jesus is the Father and the entire Athanasian Creed goes down the toilet with that since the Trinitarian belief says Jesus is not the Father. So, even if you are a Trinitarian, you need to realize this translation is messed up. The Calvinists replace "The everlasting Father" with "eternal" since that fits their Platonic beliefs. However, "father of the age" is a much better translation and goes well with Colossians 1:15-20.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Well, let's go through this passage. The capitalization of god in this passage is an editorial commentary on the passage and not the actual meaning conveyed by the passage. The first two parts - "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given" - clearly identifies a human being - not God. Little "g" god does occur in the Bible and in the context of the passage makes far more sense - see Ezekiel 31:11 as well as Jesus's explanation in John 10:34-38. Martin Luther more properly translated this passage as "divine hero".
Marin Luther wanted to throw out the book of James. Why should I believe his "proper translation"?
"The everlasting Father" is even more problematic especially with the capital F. Now, this translation is saying that Jesus is the Father and the entire Athanasian Creed goes down the toilet with that since the Trinitarian belief says Jesus is not the Father. So, even if you are a Trinitarian, you need to realize this translation is messed up. The Calvinists replace "The everlasting Father" with "eternal" since that fits their Platonic beliefs. However, "father of the age" is a much better translation and goes well with Colossians 1:15-20.
Are you a JW?
Jer 23:5-6 KJV Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. (6) In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
 

Derf

Well-known member
However, "father of the age" is a much better translation and goes well with Colossians 1:15-20.
I would propose "father of the everlasting ones", similar to
[Gen 4:20-21 KJV] 20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and [of such as have] cattle. 21 And his brother's name [was] Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
 

Hilltrot

Well-known member
I would propose "father of the everlasting ones", similar to
[Gen 4:20-21 KJV] 20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and [of such as have] cattle. 21 And his brother's name [was] Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
That fails the context - the everlasting ones would be Christians, angels or what? Regardless, that would mean that those "everlasting ones" would call Jesus, "father" which fails.

Maybe you can give more context.
 

JudgeRightly

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First, The passage itself says "before Abraham was, I am he."

No, it doesn't. There is no "autos" (pardon me not typing in greek) in that passage (at least not in Jesus' words).

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