Your opinion on God’s Law.

[Choleric]

I observe Passover because it is commanded, God's appointed time for us to meet with Him. As a circumcised believer I can find my identity in Israel, even as a convert or proselyte of Judaism and Israel. So, I am both Jewish and Christian, both by choice.

You realize that Christ is our Passover don't you? Why in the world would you still observe Passover? Is Jesus not enough for you?

And you cannot began convert to Judaism and Chriatianity. You could be born a descendant of Jacob and be Jewish by blood, but you can't convert to Judaism and christianity. They are two opposite things.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

You used to attain righteousness by the law. But since Christ came, we get our righteousness as a free gift by faith. It is not through the law any longer.

 

[Jacob]

You realize that Christ is our Passover don't you? Why in the world would you still observe Passover? Is Jesus not enough for you?

And you cannot began convert to Judaism and Chriatianity. You could be born a descendant of Jacob and be Jewish by blood, but you can't convert to Judaism and christianity. They are two opposite things.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

You used to attain righteousness by the law. But since Christ came, we get our righteousness as a free gift by faith. It is not through the law any longer.

Salvation was never through the Law, whether Jew or Gentile. Christ is our Passover, yes. Passover is still celebrated around the world. A person can still convert to Judaism. I have not ceased to be a Christian. The Messiah of Israel and Judaism is Yeshua (Jesus). The new covenant was for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Gentiles are now included. A Christian can be either Jew or Gentile.

 

[Choleric]

Salvation was never through the Law, whether Jew or Gentile. Christ is our Passover, yes. Passover is still celebrated around the world. A person can still convert to Judaism. I have not ceased to be a Christian. The Messiah of Israel and Judaism is Yeshua (Jesus). The new covenant was for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Gentiles are now included. A Christian can be either Jew or Gentile.

Righteousness was at one time obtained through law keeping (Deut 6:25) . It ensured long life and salvation. God sent those faithful ones into Abraham's bosom to await their ultimate redemption in Christ, but Rom 10:4 clearly teaches that what was once obtained through the law is now found in Christ. Do you agree with the scripture on this point?

And a Christian is neither Jew not Gentile according to Galatians 3:11,28.

And people that still practice Passover are still waiting for their messiah. Jesus has already come. You do not need to practice Passover anymore.

 

[Jacob]

Righteousness was at one time obtained through law keeping (Deut 6:25) . It ensured long life and salvation. God sent those faithful ones into Abraham's bosom to await their ultimate redemption in Christ, but Rom 10:4 clearly teaches that what was once obtained through the law is now found in Christ. Do you agree with the scripture on this point?

And a Christian is neither Jew not Gentile according to Galatians 3:11,28.

And people that still practice Passover are still waiting for their messiah. Jesus has already come. You do not need to practice Passover anymore.

I was already a Christian before observing Passover. I did not know what it meant that Christ is our Passover. Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works. It was never by works. Obeying God is still important, even with the coming of the new covenant. There are different kinds of righteousness. Positional righteousness, or imputed righteousness, is not righteousness by what you practice but righteousness by who you are in Christ. It will always be good to practice righteousness.

There are males and females who are Christian. So there are Jews and Gentiles who are Christian.

 

[Epoisses]

The Law of Moses can be for the Jew and the Christian. The new covenant can be for the Jew and the Greek/Gentile.

The law of Moses was for the Jews and Christ's agape love is for Christians. Love is for the Jews too but I don't think they're gonna figure that out. Especially since more and more Christians like yourself are turning their backs on it.

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. Rev. 2:4,5

 

[Jacob]

The law of Moses was for the Jews and Christ's agape love is for Christians. Love is for the Jews too but I don't think they're gonna figure that out. Especially since more and more Christians like yourself are turning their backs on it.

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. Rev. 2:4,5

Jews who believe Jesus to be the Messiah are saved and do good works as a result of their salvation, whether according to the Law or not. The same should be for Gentiles. If you confess your sins He (God) is faithful and just to forgive you your sins and to cleanse you from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 NASB - If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Epoisses]

Jews who believe Jesus to be the Messiah are saved and do good works as a result of their salvation, whether according to the Law or not. The same should be for Gentiles. If you confess your sins He (God) is faithful and just to forgive you your sins and to cleanse you from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 NASB - If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

All of our sins have been forgiven 'in Christ'. Those who believe this reflect God's love in gratitude.

 

[Jacob]

All of our sins have been forgiven 'in Christ'. Those who believe this reflect God's love in gratitude.

True. These can be Gentiles too, not just Jews.

 

[Epoisses]

True. These can be Gentiles too, not just Jews.

Law keeping is not love. The two are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

[Jacob]

Law keeping is not love. The two are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Jesus said the Law is about love of God and love of your neighbor, which is what the Law (Torah) says. Jesus observed and taught the Law.

 

[Epoisses]

Jesus said the Law is about love of God and love of your neighbor, which is what the Law (Torah) says. Jesus observed and taught the Law.

Law keeping is the mark of the beast. It's an outward sign that someone has rejected Christ and his gospel. The mark is said to go in the hand and forehead and there were several places in the OT where this is mentioned and all of them dealt with law/commandment keeping. Deut. 6 and 11 and Ex. 13:9 is the clearest - And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD’S law may be in thy mouth: You're marked and at the end when the antichrist sets up his kingdom in Jerusalem and rebuilds the temple you will be welcomed into the fold. Those who preach the gospel of free grace will be put to death by people like you. It's sad to see a soul die and the light of life snuffed out but it happens every day.

 

[Jacob]

Law keeping is the mark of the beast. It's an outward sign that someone has rejected Christ and his gospel. The mark is said to go in the hand and forehead and there were several places in the OT where this is mentioned and all of them dealt with law/commandment keeping. Deut. 6 and 11 and Ex. 13:9 is the clearest - And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD’S law may be in thy mouth: You're marked and at the end when the antichrist sets up his kingdom in Jerusalem and rebuilds the temple you will be welcomed into the fold. Those who preach the gospel of free grace will be put to death by people like you. It's sad to see a soul die and the light of life snuffed out but it happens every day.

I have no problem with God's grace. I disagree with you.

 

[Derf]

Your post here is constructive. I don't know if I agree with your premise or conclusion. Your argument may not be correct.

Yes, there are courts.

Where does your idea of avenge murder come from? I don't know that it is Biblical.

No one escapes God's perfect justice, and we don't know that we are to enact justice on our own, saying that somehow we are God's agents for justice or correction.

There is a difference between right and wrong, and we have this as a foundation.

The penalty for murder is death. So no one should kill anyone else.

When the Bible says that the wages of sin is death, is it talking about how in Adam all die as the result of sin? See Romans 6:23 NASB. The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

When is forgiveness appropriate? Is it appropriate at all times? It may be.

Do we truly know what the love of God is about, and eternal salvation with the forgiveness of sins? We should forgive that we would be forgiven. We are forgiven for our sins, and should make things right whether we have experienced God's forgiveness yet or not.

Romans 3:23 NASB. It is up to us to live righteously, making right decisions at all times. God can help us in Jesus Christ.

Should a murderer die? All who have sinned should die, and all have sinned. But none of us are to enact that death, it is up to God. Do not take personal vengeance, says the Bible, but leave room for the wrath of God.

Romans 12:19 NASB - 19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.

Sorry for taking so long to get back to this.

Vengeance for murder is mandated to Noah, as the leader of all mankind, in Gen 9:5-6:

And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. [Gen 9:5 KJV]
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. [Gen 9:6 KJV]
The bolded part in particular specifies that it is man that must avenge murder (v.6).​

And is reiterated in Num 35:19, 21.

The avenger of blood himself shall put the murderer to death; when he meets him, he shall put him to death. [Num 35:19 NKJV]
or in enmity he strikes him with his hand so that he dies, the one who struck [him] shall surely be put to death. He [is] a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him. [Num 35:21 NKJV]​

So, if Moses in Numbers 35:19 affirms the concept of the avenger of blood, why would he then disavow the concept in [Deu 32:35 NKJV]: 'Vengeance is Mine...', which Paul quotes in Rom 12:19?

So either God changed His mind between Numbers and Deuteronomy, or Paul is pulling the verse out of context for a new purpose, or there's something else that doesn't make sense with what you are saying (that murder is never to be avenged by humans). The jurisdictional thing is the best answer I have to keep the texts consistent with each other. Num 35 goes into some specific detail about how the murder trials are supposed to work in concert with the "sanctuary cities", and seems to indicate that 1. the avenger of blood is not to also decide guilt (separating judge from executioner), and 2. multiple witnesses are required.

Just thinking through the "personal" vengeance idea--with respect to murder, there is no "personal" vengeance, since the victim can't take vengeance. Deut 32:35 seems to be concerned with "national" vengeance, and Paul co-opts it for a more personal use, in all cases where "personal vengenance" would apply (which does not include murder), showing a side of Christians that should set them apart from most others.

Sidenote:

Spoiler

It surprises me a little that you claim to be a convert to Judaism, but don't know what Judaism teaches that you have to do. Maybe your conversion was a little hasty?? Or maybe I'm ignorant of some new Judaism that isn't based on Moses. If, however, you want to celebrate the feasts of Judaism as a Christian, especially remembering the role of Christ in fulfilling those feasts, I don't think that's a problem. (Col 2:16)

 

[Jacob]

Sorry for taking so long to get back to this.

Vengeance for murder is mandated to Noah, as the leader of all mankind, in Gen 9:5-6:

And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. [Gen 9:5 KJV]
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. [Gen 9:6 KJV]
The bolded part in particular specifies that it is man that must avenge murder (v.6).​

And is reiterated in Num 35:19, 21.

The avenger of blood himself shall put the murderer to death; when he meets him, he shall put him to death. [Num 35:19 NKJV]
or in enmity he strikes him with his hand so that he dies, the one who struck [him] shall surely be put to death. He [is] a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him. [Num 35:21 NKJV]​

So, if Moses in Numbers 35:19 affirms the concept of the avenger of blood, why would he then disavow the concept in [Deu 32:35 NKJV]: 'Vengeance is Mine...', which Paul quotes in Rom 12:19?

So either God changed His mind between Numbers and Deuteronomy, or Paul is pulling the verse out of context for a new purpose, or there's something else that doesn't make sense with what you are saying (that murder is never to be avenged by humans). The jurisdictional thing is the best answer I have to keep the texts consistent with each other. Num 35 goes into some specific detail about how the murder trials are supposed to work in concert with the "sanctuary cities", and seems to indicate that 1. the avenger of blood is not to also decide guilt (separating judge from executioner), and 2. multiple witnesses are required.

Just thinking through the "personal" vengeance idea--with respect to murder, there is no "personal" vengeance, since the victim can't take vengeance. Deut 32:35 seems to be concerned with "national" vengeance, and Paul co-opts it for a more personal use, in all cases where "personal vengenance" would apply (which does not include murder), showing a side of Christians that should set them apart from most others.

Sidenote:

Spoiler

It surprises me a little that you claim to be a convert to Judaism, but don't know what Judaism teaches that you have to do. Maybe your conversion was a little hasty?? Or maybe I'm ignorant of some new Judaism that isn't based on Moses. If, however, you want to celebrate the feasts of Judaism as a Christian, especially remembering the role of Christ in fulfilling those feasts, I don't think that's a problem. (Col 2:16)

Jesus and the Apostles went to their deaths without lifting a finger against anyone. Jesus was sinless, having lived a perfect life. Is this a part of the new covenant and the preaching of the gospel? I know of the new covenant and I am a new covenant believer. I know that somehow the new covenant is different from the old covenant. Is this in that the people broke the old covenant although God was a husband to them?

You see that with courts and cities of refuge the judge is different than the avenger of blood. Is the new covenant different from the old covenant? In what way is it different?

If a new covenant believer observes the old covenant, both being about love of God and your neighbor, there is love... is there things like restitution and capital punishment or is it all about unconditional forgiveness on our part and on God's in saving us and giving us eternal life?

Romans 6:23 NASB.

 

[meshak]

Sorry for taking so long to get back to this.

Vengeance for murder is mandated to Noah, as the leader of all mankind, in Gen 9:5-6:

So you misuse Scripture to justify violent faith.

"Vengeances is Mine", says God, friend.

You ought to adjust your worldly practice and mentality to Jesus' way. You are doing it the other way.

 

[Derf]

So you misuse Scripture to justify violent faith.

"Vengeances is Mine", says God, friend.

You ought to adjust your worldly practice and mentality to Jesus' way. You are doing it the other way.

Hi Meshak.

Maybe you misunderstood me. I'm saying scripture says these things. Are you saying scripture does not say these things?

If it doesn't, what do you think Gen 9:5-6 is saying?
Is that a bad thing God was telling Noah to do, and to set in place for his descendants, all of humanity, to do, at least until it was superseded? This thread is about whether God's commands have been superseded, if I understand it correctly, but not about whether it was a good thing in the first place. Maybe that would be a good new thread. But for now, why do you recoil at something God told Noah to do. Do we know better now than God did back then? Was God a lousy lawmaker back then?

Which "worldly" practices are you suggesting I change? I haven't murdered anyone. In fact, I teach my children that if they murder someone, they should expect to be punished severely, and probably killed, by other people. Should I not be telling them that?

Neither have I avenged anyone. So what worldly practices are you referring to?

And what does this have to do with faith????

 

[Jacob]

Not whether Torah has been superseded. Rather if there is a righteousness that does not seek for others to be punished, but rather seeks to forgive and communicate God's forgiveness.

 

[Jacob]

Romans 3:21 NASB - But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

 

[Jacob]

There is forgiveness in Jesus and we ought to forgive even as God forgives. If we forgive is it only then that we would be forgiven?

 

[Jacob]

A person's opinion on the Law may be that we are to observe it, that we are to observe some of it, that we are not to observe it, or that we are not to observe it but that we are to observe something else. Here we can say that the Law being referred to is the Law of Moses, God's Law. Is there another Law that is God's Law or is the Law of Moses what we are to observe, even if just in part (all of God's Law is valid and has been since it was put in place by God through Moses with the old covenant, God's covenant with the nation of Israel before the coming of the new covenant in Jesus).