Your opinion on God’s Law.

Clete

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Your opinion on God’s Law. Do you believe God’s Law is only for pointing out sin in a person’s life so that they can understand their need for a Savior and be saved by God and Jesus? Or, do you believe God’s Law is also to be obeyed, or is also for our obedience?

Let me say at first that I have not read the thread. I'm simply interested in offering an answer to the question posted in the OP. If anyone wants to pick it up and discuss my answer, great. If not then just consider this to be my two cents....


The answer depends on the context of the question. Are you talking about religious rituals and ceremonial laws, criminal justice laws or moral laws?

If the later then the answer is found in the 2nd post of this thread, that the law is our tutor to bring us to Christ but once in Christ we no longer need a tutor. Morality is about doing rightly because you WANT to do it, because you love your neighbor NOT because there's a list of rules on the wall saying to do this and not do that. If you refrain from stealing your neighbor's property because the Ten Commandments say "Thou shalt not steal." then you've received your reward in full.

The question of ceremonial laws having to do with religious rituals such as baptisms, sacrifices, etc. The answer there is obvious as well. Jesus fulfilled all such laws during His Earthly ministry. We have the substance and no longer need the shadow.

When it comes to criminal justice however, the answer is quite different. Stealing, for example, is not just a sin, its a crime. And God tells us very clearly what is to be done with the thief. We are told over and over and over again, throughout the scripture to "practice justice". Well, what does justice look like if not that which is presented to us as proper punishment of crimes in God's word? Justice, indeed all righteousness, is based on a single principle. A principle we've all come to know as the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Criminal justice is no exception. Criminal justice is when it is done unto the convicted criminal as he sought to do unto his victim (whether he succeeded or not). Thus, if a person steals $100, the thief is not only to make his victim whole by returning the $100 but in addition to that he is to pay restitution to his victim so that it is done unto the thief as he did unto his victim. This is the basis of God's declaration, "life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. (Ex. 21:23-25 & Deut. 19:21).

Now, there are some specific issues presented in the Old Testament Law where the distinction is difficult to make between what is a criminal justice issue vs. what is a religious issue that applied only within the context of the nation of Israel and their practice of Judaism but those issues are few and far between. For the most part its pretty clearly cut and dried as to what is a moral law vs what is a religious law. For one thing, moral laws cannot contradict one another like religious laws can. There can be a dilemma between circumcising a child on the eighth day vs. not doing any work on the Sabbath (two religious laws). If the eighth day falls on Saturday, you have a conflict, the likes of which is not possible with moral laws. You'd never ever find yourself in a situation where you had to rape a woman in order to keep yourself from murdering her or where you had to choose between stealing someone's care and committing adultery with their spouse. Moral laws just do not conflict in that manner and thus the answer to your question, when it concerns matters of criminal justice, is a resounding, "YES!"

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

meshak

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Jacob,

You need to focus on Jesus' law.

God gave Jesus authority to be His followers' Lord.

OT law that God gave through Moses are old covenant.

Jesus followers have new covenant with Jesus.

Jesus sacrificed Himself for our sins so we don't have to sacrifice and following all kinds of rituals for our sins.

You don't seem to get this idea.
 

meshak

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Jesus made God's law simple: love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

No more observing sacrificial and rituals like OT people did.
 

Aletheiophile

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I am talking about most churches not to respect Jesus' teachings with so many doctrines like OSAS, predestination and so on.

You don't seem to have problem with it.

I understand that Jacob does not seem to get the idea that many of OT law was abolished by Jesus.

He is mixing with OT law and Jesus' law. They are not the same.

OT law is more than just love God and love one another.

Except that you do not see that you are applying your own presupposition to scripture. Do you not see that the Johannine Gospel, that is, the rawest form of the teachings of Christ, is what Paul and the apostles teach in the epistles?

You have no idea what doctrine I hold to, so it is premature to say what I do or do have a problem with.

Summation of what I have a problem: Any doctrine that denies Christ as the all in all, and the Logos of God incarnate.
 

Aletheiophile

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I want to follow the law.

The important thing about the commands in Torah is that they are not to be excluded when we describe what Torah, God's instruction, is about.

Of course not, but you do not understand the difference between commands and Torah/law. Both the Hebrew and the Greek for follow/observe/keep have to do with guarding. It's not about doing.
 

Jacob

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Jacob,

You need to focus on Jesus' law.

God gave Jesus authority to be His followers' Lord.

OT law that God gave through Moses are old covenant.

Jesus followers have new covenant with Jesus.

Jesus sacrificed Himself for our sins so we don't have to sacrifice and following all kinds of rituals for our sins.

You don't seem to get this idea.

Jesus observed and taught the Law. You know I teach this meshak, and I believe you approved of it. What is different or what changed in your thinking? I realize you have been addressed in this thread.
 

Jacob

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Of course not, but you do not understand the difference between commands and Torah/law. Both the Hebrew and the Greek for follow/observe/keep have to do with guarding. It's not about doing.

Doing what God commands is part of keeping Torah. The Torah (God's instruction) is about more than commands, but it does not exclude them.
 

meshak

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Jesus observed and taught the Law. You know I teach this meshak, and I believe you approved of it. What is different or what changed in your thinking? I realize you have been addressed in this thread.

I know your heart is in right place. And I know you want to be faithful follower but you seem to be promoting Judaism, which Jewish people follow. Remember Pharisees? They followed Judaism too.

Jesus' died on the corss eliminate many of Moses laws.

Only Ten commands are to be followed by Jesus' followers.

I am against most churches because they don't even recognize Jesus' laws.

Jesus' laws is His teachings that many churches dismiss. Good example is "love your enemy".

I don't want to speak against you because you don't dismiss Jesus' teaching of NT.

Jesus explained how to practice love God and love your neighbor as yourself in NT.

So many people are attacking you because you seem to be confused about OT teachings and NT teachings.
 

Jacob

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I know your heart is in right place. And I know you want to be faithful follower but you seem to be promoting Judaism, which Jewish people follow. Remember Pharisees? They followed Judaism too.

Jesus' died on the corss eliminate many of Moses laws.

Only Ten commands are to be followed by Jesus' followers.

I am against most churches because they don't even recognize Jesus' laws.

Jesus' laws is His teachings that many churches dismiss. Good example is "love your enemy".

I don't want to speak against you because you don't dismiss Jesus' teaching of NT.

Jesus explained how to practice love God and love your neighbor as yourself in NT.

So many people are attacking you because you seem to be confused about OT teachings and NT teachings.

I believe that both Judaism and Christianity are Biblical.
 

meshak

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Doing what God commands is part of keeping Torah. The Torah (God's instruction) is about more than commands, but it does not exclude them.

You see, he is trying to explain about OT laws that you are not getting.
 

Jacob

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OT law was OT people.

Jesus' followers have new covenant with Jesus with His Father's approval.

this is what you are not getting.

I am saying Jesus taught old covenant law, in bringing the new covenant which is somehow not like the old which the people broke.
 

meshak

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Except that you do not see that you are applying your own presupposition to scripture. Do you not see that the Johannine Gospel, that is, the rawest form of the teachings of Christ, is what Paul and the apostles teach in the epistles?

You have no idea what doctrine I hold to, so it is premature to say what I do or do have a problem with.

Summation of what I have a problem: Any doctrine that denies Christ as the all in all, and the Logos of God incarnate.

I have been following your posts and I agree on half of what you claim, not the whole thing.

do you pay attention to what the churches are practicing as a whole? do you pay attention to Jesus' word of "we know them by their fruit?

You need to know that Jacob's heart is in the right place.

but I cannot communicate with him too well either.
 

IMJerusha

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OT law was OT people.

Jesus' followers have new covenant with Jesus with His Father's approval.

this is what you are not getting.

The New Covenant doesn't remove the Law, Meshak, only the curse of the Law. I think that is what Jacob is stating. When we view the Law now, it is through Yeshua. God's Law is eternal and our obedience to it is now out of liberty in Yeshua Who is eternally obedient to His Father.
 

meshak

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I am saying Jesus taught old covenant law, in bringing the new covenant which is somehow not like the old which the people broke.

Jesus taught what to practice. That's what He means when He says He came to fulfill the law.

OT people did not know what God was originally intended for them to practice.
 
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