Young Earth or Old?

[Lon]

I just can't believe that even though the LORD formed the earth to be habitable that the following verse is speaking about the way the LORD originally formed it since it was not habitable at this point in time:

​

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep" (Gen.1:1-2).​

Called the 'gap' theory if that helps. Nick posted a verse for consideration in another thread: Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

 

[Clete]

I mean the science is clear, the earth is hundreds of billions of years old. There isn't any serious debate happening about this within the scientific community.

The scientific community? Why would there be any debate about it within the scientific community? Why would there EVER be any debate about it in the scientific community?

I know you don't get the point of that so let me spell it out....

Science isn't done via debate. Debate is for philosophers and politicians, not scientists. The point being that your statement here betrays a bias and a false premise. You think that if a whole group of atheists stop debating a subject that it means that theory has become facts. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The truth is that atheistic scientists have every motive in the world to presuppose an super-old earth and every disincentive that could exist to ignore evidence to the contrary. A far more plausible explanation for the lack of debate, as if debate is even necessary to begin with. The age of the Earth is not a matter of opinion.

The Torah? Much less clear whether its meant to be taken literally or not. Based on their lack of scientific understanding and the point of the story not to be an accurate historical or scientific book but a story of God's love, I'd say I believe the science.

This is proof positive that you don't have any idea what you're talking about. You've never even read it. Why bother even stating an opinion on a subject you've never bothered to educate yourself about?

 

[Derf]

Once you've determined a whole entire discipline is uniformly agreed on something within their purview, OK.

But now in order to be responsible you have to entertain the notion of organizational or as Wikipedia calls it regulatory capture, which means, that a whole entire organization is intellectually, spiritually, mentally, corrupted by some interest, party, or political ideology.

Regulatory capture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It means truth is compromised within that organization. It means the whole entire organization is not to be trusted.

Are we still on the Roman Catholicism transubstantiation question? Oh, right, this is a different thread.

 

[7djengo7]

I just can't believe that even though the LORD formed the earth to be habitable that the following verse is speaking about the way the LORD originally formed it since it was not habitable at this point in time:

​

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep" (Gen.1:1-2).​

Do you say the earth was not habitable on Day 1, or was it habitable then? What of Day 2? At what point do you say the earth became habitable if it was not habitable on Day 1? Can you believe God formed the earth to be uninhabited? Yet He clearly did: He formed the earth to be uninhabited by man on Days 1 through 5. Had He not, then He'd have put man on the earth on Day 1, and not waited to do so until Day 6. Does that mean that the earth must have been in a state of ruin on days 1 through 5, because it was uninhabited by man during that period?

 

[Ignitory05V]

doesn't the Bible say that God is a consuming fire, perhaps as someone mentioned earlier about light, God is not a fire in the way we know fire.

for example it could be symbolic of something entirely different from what we first think of. The Bible says that the Jews will be a light to the Gentiles but this of course is not a literal light from a lamp but symbolic as showing the way and revealing.

So also, God is a fire that consumes, in this sense it could be something that is so far beyond anything we have ever imagined or know.

 

[Idolater]

So answer this - do you believe like MacArthur and Hamn that Noah put Dino on the ark? They also believe the UNIVERSE is 6,000 years old. Do you think the universe is about 7,500 years old?

All I know is, you can't possibly believe that the geologic record is like a videotape of what happened over ... I'm guessing you think that mankind has been around for 200,000 years? You think geology captured every last thing during those years? You don't think that rather, the geologic record of such a time span is going to be truncated, flattened, smeared, iow distorted in some sense? I mean you can have radiometric dating results, and the shapes and compositions of rocks, sure, there are a number of parameters you can measure and geologists do.

But obv this record cannot have recorded everything that happened. obv that record is going to be incomplete. It doesn't mean in any sense that the record's wrong, it can't be wrong, if an old Earth.

Take any plot of land. Make it big. Now just to that plot of land, I want you to imagine dumping water onto and all over it, and I mean like a firehose. Do it for 40 days straight, I mean really pour it on there.

What's going to happen to all the structures not drilled into bedrock? What's going to happen to all topsoil and rocks smaller than a house? How about trees? Any trees going to be left?

And I'm just going to ask you, now just release your grasp on that plot of land, stop the firehose. Now let 7500 years pass. Do you think there'd be any difference in the geology, between this plot of land, subjected to a 40-day long firehosing, and all the geology around it? Anything that we measure? I mean I think after 7500 days, easily, you're not going to know that anything happened in that plot of land, that's how quickly the Earth will reclaim that land, that had been all washed out by your firehose for 40 days. But that's the surface, that's what's on top of the geology. The geology itself, the bedrock, is just not going to show anybody anything, no evidence of that deluge by firehose.

Right?

 

[Idolater]

“ But now in order to be responsible you have to entertain the notion of organizational or as Wikipedia calls it regulatory capture, which means, that a whole entire organization is intellectually, spiritually, mentally, corrupted by some interest, party, or political ideology. ”

Are we still on the Roman Catholicism transubstantiation question? Oh, right, this is a different thread.

What's the upshot? What's the payoff? What's motivating? obv in geology the motive is concrete. Partly to do science you're seeking income. How do you get income, when you're doing geology? How do you get people in charge of releasing money, to release some money to you? If you say to them, "I'm going to find Noah's ark!" and this other guy is like, "Blah blah blah radiometry geologic column billions of years", and their boss is going to be reviewing the money they released in their annual evaluation, are they going to be more comfortable defending their decision, if they went with the former or with the latter? It depends an awful lot on whether THEIR boss thinks searching for Noah's ark is a fool's errand or not. And if their boss got hired by, for example, an old-Earther politician, then even if they think pursuing Noah's ark is a worthwhile pursuit personally, they still ... might not release money to that project ... even no matter how well thought out the project is. Just the goal of the project itself fails to offer them protection from their politician boss's boss, who's definitely not going to risk his or his party's reelection, over any money released to a project searching for Noah's ark, no matter how well thought out the project is.

And it won't get to that point ever anyway, is the moral of the story. By the time this project list ascends through three or more levels of bureaucracy, it has been so sanitized and filtered and curated, that it comes out looking entirely uniform. It's not even because the top people have ideological preference, it's because his underlings KNOW he has political preferences, and this is why they censor at every level. Controversial stuff is never going to reach the top man's desk. In order for this to be true, guess what takes a hit?

Science.

 

[Nick M]

This is proof positive that you don't have any idea what you're talking about. You've never even read it. Why bother even stating an opinion on a subject you've never bothered to educate yourself about?

As a side note, Charlie Kirk lets people who disagree come to the front of the line and he puts the clips on Youtube. I'm amazed at the amount of people opposed to the Bible and what it says, and they have no idea what it actually says. It is rather common.

 

[Right Divider]

doesn't the Bible say that God is a consuming fire, perhaps as someone mentioned earlier about light, God is not a fire in the way we know fire.

for example it could be symbolic of something entirely different from what we first think of. The Bible says that the Jews will be a light to the Gentiles but this of course is not a literal light from a lamp but symbolic as showing the way and revealing.

So also, God is a fire that consumes, in this sense it could be something that is so far beyond anything we have ever imagined or know.

What does any of that have to do with the topic of this thread? (i.e., the age of the earth).

 

[Avajs]

“ But now in order to be responsible you have to entertain the notion of organizational or as Wikipedia calls it regulatory capture, which means, that a whole entire organization is intellectually, spiritually, mentally, corrupted by some interest, party, or political ideology. ”



What's the upshot? What's the payoff? What's motivating? obv in geology the motive is concrete. Partly to do science you're seeking income. How do you get income, when you're doing geology? How do you get people in charge of releasing money, to release some money to you? If you say to them, "I'm going to find Noah's ark!" and this other guy is like, "Blah blah blah radiometry geologic column billions of years", and their boss is going to be reviewing the money they released in their annual evaluation, are they going to be more comfortable defending their decision, if they went with the former or with the latter? It depends an awful lot on whether THEIR boss thinks searching for Noah's ark is a fool's errand or not. And if their boss got hired by, for example, an old-Earther politician, then even if they think pursuing Noah's ark is a worthwhile pursuit personally, they still ... might not release money to that project ... even no matter how well thought out the project is. Just the goal of the project itself fails to offer them protection from their politician boss's boss, who's definitely not going to risk his or his party's reelection, over any money released to a project searching for Noah's ark, no matter how well thought out the project is.

And it won't get to that point ever anyway, is the moral of the story. By the time this project list ascends through three or more levels of bureaucracy, it has been so sanitized and filtered and curated, that it comes out looking entirely uniform. It's not even because the top people have ideological preference, it's because his underlings KNOW he has political preferences, and this is why they censor at every level. Controversial stuff is never going to reach the top man's desk. In order for this to be true, guess what takes a hit?

Science.

are you a scientist with personal knowledge of the funding process?

 

[Ignitory05V]

Someone mentioned earlier that God is a consuming fire, this is the information we are given about what God is....

The attributes or characteristics of God and what he is made of who and what he is seem very limited to our human understanding, because our minds cannot understand, we are nothing like the Almighty Eternal God ..

He is described in the Bible as to be many, many things as we see below as a few examples.
A Young earth is the only thing that the Bible describes for the earths age​

even as an understanding of the promise of Eternal Life given for those in him, we really cannot understand or comprehend eternal life nor can we understand what existed in the universe before the beginning when the heavens and earth were created. I believe that there was something there that either eternal or close to being eternal or even something we simply cannot comprehend or understand

we are told that God is

Love,
Fire,
Spirit,
Light,
God is one LORD
God is God of gods
God is thy refuge
God is my strength and power
the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
God is mighty
God is a sun and shield:
God is the rock
God is holy
God is pure
God is a God of gods
God is not the God of the dead
God is good
God is quick, and powerful, and sharper

but just as we really do not understand the spirit world or what exactly God is made of or even other dimensions nor eternal life, in the same way we are not given information in the Scriptures about what existed before the heavens and earth were made.. The Bible is not provided to be a science book....... in the ways we know science, it simply provides a path to show how to be clean, healthy, pure, holy and gives instructions for the world we can comprehend and know and understand but does not go any further.

Perhaps it is a young earth that is the Bible expressing for the creation and existence of everything we understand, can see, and perceive and in reality the Bible gives no information outside of that and even limits its message by saying " God is a consuming fire " but just as the age of the universe we are not given information as to what this means from a pre creation view.

how would a consuming fire create anything? what is God that allows him to create, we do not know just as we do not know what existed before his creation of heaven and earth.

 

[Right Divider]

...nor can we understand what existed in the universe before the beginning when the heavens and earth were created.

Nothing "existed in the universe" before its creation.

 

[Ignitory05V]

Nothing "existed in the universe" before its creation.

probably very true, from a human understanding of what we see and know as perceive as " existence "

but what about the existence of things or spirits before the " universe ' as we know it, God existed for sure....can we look to scriptures or science and honestly say that nothing existed or are just looking at the mater from our human understanding and thinking that if we cannot know or comprehend or understand, it did not exist.

and therefore is nothingness............ I say this not to disagree or counter your statement but , I agree in that when we look out into the blackness of space through our eyes, we think that this vast darkness is " nothing " and to us humans it is truly nothing

when a Christian expresses that they feel the presence of the invisible God, to someone else looking at the situation they see and perceive nothing.

 

[Right Divider]

probably very true, from a human understanding of what we see and know as perceive as " existence "

but what about the existence of things or spirits before the " universe ' as we know it, God existed for sure....can we look to scriptures or science and honestly say that nothing existed or are just looking at the mater from our human understanding and thinking that if we cannot know or comprehend or understand, it did not exist.

and therefore is nothingness............ I say this not to disagree or counter your statement but , I agree in that when we look out into the blackness of space through our eyes, we think that this vast darkness is " nothing " and to us humans it is truly nothing

when a Christian expresses that they feel the presence of the invisible God, to someone else looking at the situation they see and perceive nothing.

You sound like you are advocating some new-age nonsense.

 

[Right Divider]

probably very true, from a human understanding of what we see and know as perceive as " existence "

but what about the existence of things or spirits before the " universe ' as we know it, God existed for sure....can we look to scriptures or science and honestly say that nothing existed or are just looking at the mater from our human understanding and thinking that if we cannot know or comprehend or understand, it did not exist.

and therefore is nothingness............ I say this not to disagree or counter your statement but , I agree in that when we look out into the blackness of space through our eyes, we think that this vast darkness is " nothing " and to us humans it is truly nothing

when a Christian expresses that they feel the presence of the invisible God, to someone else looking at the situation they see and perceive nothing.

You sound like you are advocating some new-age nonsense.

 

[Avajs]

probably very true, from a human understanding of what we see and know as perceive as " existence "

but what about the existence of things or spirits before the " universe ' as we know it, God existed for sure....can we look to scriptures or science and honestly say that nothing existed or are just looking at the mater from our human understanding and thinking that if we cannot know or comprehend or understand, it did not exist.

and therefore is nothingness............ I say this not to disagree or counter your statement but , I agree in that when we look out into the blackness of space through our eyes, we think that this vast darkness is " nothing " and to us humans it is truly nothing

when a Christian expresses that they feel the presence of the invisible God, to someone else looking at the situation they see and perceive nothing.

from what i read physicists and cosmologists indicate our math and physics break down when we get to a short time after the big bang 14.8 +\- billion years ago. as to the rest of your post I am not a believer

 

[Avajs]

probably very true, from a human understanding of what we see and know as perceive as " existence "

but what about the existence of things or spirits before the " universe ' as we know it, God existed for sure....can we look to scriptures or science and honestly say that nothing existed or are just looking at the mater from our human understanding and thinking that if we cannot know or comprehend or understand, it did not exist.

and therefore is nothingness............ I say this not to disagree or counter your statement but , I agree in that when we look out into the blackness of space through our eyes, we think that this vast darkness is " nothing " and to us humans it is truly nothing

when a Christian expresses that they feel the presence of the invisible God, to someone else looking at the situation they see and perceive nothing.

from what i read physicists and cosmologists indicate our math and physics break down when we get to a short time after the big bang 14.8 +\- billion years ago. as to the rest of your post I am not a believer

 

[Right Divider]

probably very true, from a human understanding of what we see and know as perceive as " existence "

but what about the existence of things or spirits before the " universe ' as we know it, God existed for sure....can we look to scriptures or science and honestly say that nothing existed or are just looking at the mater from our human understanding and thinking that if we cannot know or comprehend or understand, it did not exist.

and therefore is nothingness............ I say this not to disagree or counter your statement but , I agree in that when we look out into the blackness of space through our eyes, we think that this vast darkness is " nothing " and to us humans it is truly nothing

when a Christian expresses that they feel the presence of the invisible God, to someone else looking at the situation they see and perceive nothing.

You sound like you are advocating some new-age nonsense.

 

[JudgeRightly]

probably very true, from a human understanding of what we see and know as perceive as " existence "

but what about the existence of things or spirits before the " universe ' as we know it, God existed for sure....can we look to scriptures or science and honestly say that nothing existed or are just looking at the mater from our human understanding and thinking that if we cannot know or comprehend or understand, it did not exist.

and therefore is nothingness............ I say this not to disagree or counter your statement but , I agree in that when we look out into the blackness of space through our eyes, we think that this vast darkness is " nothing " and to us humans it is truly nothing

when a Christian expresses that they feel the presence of the invisible God, to someone else looking at the situation they see and perceive nothing.

Ban evasion has resulted in a permanent ban. Do not come back.

 

[JudgeRightly]

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