• This is a new section being rolled out to attract people interested in exploring the origins of the universe and the earth from a biblical perspective. Debate is encouraged and opposing viewpoints are welcome to post but certain rules must be followed. 1. No abusive tagging - if abusive tags are found - they will be deleted and disabled by the Admin team 2. No calling the biblical accounts a fable - fairy tale ect. This is a Christian site, so members that participate here must be respectful in their disagreement.

Young Earth or Old?

Clete

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It is no more creation than when I turn on the lights in a room.

Everything that was necessary for light was already created in Genesis 1:1. In the beginning.

Since the earth became without form and void, God had to repair it.

Genesis 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Jeremiah 4:23
I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Without form and void is tou bou.

God did not create a mess.

Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.

The word for vain in v 18 is the Hebrew word tou.

God did not create the heaven and the earth tou, thus something happened to the heaven and the earth to make it so.

God does not do slipshod workmanship.

Deu 32:4

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

perfect here meaning complete,whole sound, healthful

The mutiny by Lucifer is the cause of the chaos. They were cast down.

Rev 12:9

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
This is isogetical rationalizing at its worst. If this is how you do doctrine, anything goes! You could start yourself a cult and move into a compound in Waco, TX and then use just this sort of "reasoning" to justify forcing parents to allow their fourteen year old daughters to spend the night with you.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.​
"All that is in them" includes Satan and Michael and the rest of every other created person, place or thing!

Jeremiah 4:23 I (God) beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light.

Neither the Hebrew word "hāyâ", which you are pretending MUST mean "became" in Genesis 1:2 (which is false), nor any other word that could possibly be translated "became" is present in Jeremiah 4:23. The prophet Jeremiah clearly believed, and, being divinely inspired, recorded God's own words saying that both the Earth and the Heavens were created without light.
 
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JudgeRightly

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That's right! God did not have to create anything for light to happen. He spoke and light happened.

Yes, He SPOKE light into existence, because it did not exist before.

God accurately told us how light happened and how it did not happen.

Indeed.

He did not create light,

Yes He did.

therefore, He did not say, "and God created light" but rather, God accurately described what He did.

Right, He created light by speaking it into existence. Just like He created animals and celestial entities by speaking them into existence.

Genesis 1:3

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Yup. Just like He said:

"Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens"

NO. God did not have to create light.

He didn't have to create light, no. But He did create light at that point.

No more than you create light when you turn on a lamp, or light a candle.

When a person turns on a lamp or lights a candle, he is not creating light. He is converting energy/fuel into light energy.

God uses the word "create" in how many verses in Genesis 1?

"Created" is used 5 times in Genesis 1.

Once in 1:1.
Once in 1:21.
Three times in 1:27.

The last four times were describing what God did after He said, "Let there be..." ... the same words He used in Verse 3.

Why don't you count them?

Supra.

If God created in every act in Genesis 1, my question is why didn't God say create to describe every act He did in Genesis 1?

He did.

"Let there be light" ... And there was light.
"Let there be a firmament" ... thus God made the firmament.
"Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens" ... and it was so.
"Let the waters abound with living creatures and the skies with birds" ... so God created great sea creatures, etc.
"Let the earth bring forth living creatures" ... and it was so.
"Let Us make man in Our Image, according to Our likeness" ... So God created man...

The pattern is the same. Light is just the first in the sequence.

It does not take a Phd in Theology to look up the meaning of the word "was" in a concordance.

Who said it did?

It clearly indicates that something came to pass.

Yes.

It became without form and void.

No.

It WAS void and without form, because God had not yet formed it.

God did not create a mess

No one has said that He did.

that He had to spent six days fixing.

What, pray tell, do you think we assert He was fixing?

Does not the potter start with a lump of clay, and then take a long time to form it into something beautiful, from the turning wheel, molding it with his hands, adding more clay if needed, then putting it in the kiln to fire it?

Why couldn't God take His time starting with a lump of matter that eventually became Earth, and molding it into a paradise for the creatures He made to live in?

All Gods works are good,

AMEN!

including the original act of creation in Genesis 1:1

Begging the question won't work here, Oatsy.

Genesis 1:1 is where God created the universe and all the matter in it. The rest of the chapter is Him forming that matter into something beautiful.

To replenish or to fill is what God commanded them to do. There had never been humans before, although there had been apes before, therefore God told them to fill.

God created Apes on the morning of Day 6. They are a "beast of the earth."

It is no more creation than when I turn on the lights in a room.

Everything that was necessary for light was already created in Genesis 1:1. In the beginning.

Supra.

Since the earth became without form and void, God had to repair it.

Nope.

God started with material He needed to create, and then took 6 days to mold it into a paradise.

Genesis 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Jeremiah 4:23
I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

AMEN!

Without form and void is tou bou.

God did not create a mess.

AMEN!

Your problem is that you're starting with the assumption that God must make or create things instantly.

Once you remove that assumption, your entire position falls apart.

Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.

AMEN!

The word for vain in v 18 is the Hebrew word tou.

God did not create the heaven and the earth tou,

Because you say so?

thus something happened to the heaven and the earth to make it so.

There is no requirement for this in Scripture. It's an assumption you have to make in order to make your beliefs work.

God does not do slipshod workmanship.

Indeed, He takes His time to craft something wonderful.

Genesis 1:1 is the starting point.

Deu 32:4

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

AMEN!

perfect here meaning complete,whole sound, healthful

The mutiny by Lucifer is the cause of the chaos. They were cast down.

Rev 12:9

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

He and his fallen angels were cast out of the Garden of Eden onto the earth.

"You were in Eden, the garden of God..." . . . "You were on the holy mountain of God." - Ezekiel 28, which is on its face, about the king of Tyre, but symbolically about Lucifer (see verse 14).

You, Oatmeal, and everyone who believes as you do, that there was some sort of gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, must ignore what Moses wrote, as Clete mentioned above, and you must ignore what Jesus said, that being that He created man male and female from the beginning of the creation.

That puts you in the wrong.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
This is isogetical rationalizing at its worst. If this is how you do doctrine, anything goes! You could start yourself a cult and move into a compound in Waco, TX and then use just this sort of "reasoning" to justify forcing parents to allow their fourteen year old daughters to spend the night with you.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.​
"All that is in them" includes Satan and Michael and the rest of every other created person, place or thing!

Jeremiah 4:23 I (God) beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light.

Neither the Hebrew word "hāyâ", which you are pretending MUST mean "became" in Genesis 1:2 (which is false), nor any other word that could possibly be translated "became" is present in Jeremiah 4:23. The prophet Jeremiah clearly believed, and, being divinely inspired, recorded God's own words saying that both the Earth and the Heavens were created without light.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Thank you for providing that verse.

In Exodus 20:11, did the Lord "make" or "create" in six days? Your verse says made, which is the Hebrew word, asa. The word for create is an entirely different word, bara. Thank you for making my point.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
To become is appropriate according to concordances.

if you wish to ignore that, that is your choice
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Thank you for providing that verse.

In Exodus 20:11, did the Lord "make" or "create" in six days? Your verse says made, which is the Hebrew word, asa. The word for create is an entirely different word, bara. Thank you for making my point.
You missed the point, you stupid, slobbering moron!

First of all, what you said here isn't how language works but, more importantly, my point had to do with the highlighted portion, "ALL THAT IS IN THEM". Whether God "created" them or "made" them, as if there's a difference, the point is that He did it all in six days and then called all of it "very good". All of it. Not some of it, not most of it but all of it was "very good" by God's own declaration, including both the Earth and everything in it and Heaven and everything in it. This includes the angels and especially the arch angels Gabriel, Michael AND Lucifer. All three were created, or made or whatever word you want to use, in six days and they were made "VERY GOOD"!

And in case you aren't capable of connecting the dots yourself. That means Lucifer rebelled and became "Satan" at some point after the creation week.

To become is appropriate according to concordances.

if you wish to ignore that, that is your choice
It is no more appropriate than is "was". The meaning of a word is not determined by the dictionary but by the context.

You should read a book sometime about how dictionaries are made and maybe (probably not but maybe) you'll begin to understand how language works and that your manner of doing doctrine by means of concordances is fallacious. Defining a word is not the straight forward process that you seem to think it is. In fact, doing doctrine by means of concordances, the way you are doing it, is so asinine that there are cults that prop up their entire doctrine by use of dictionaries and concordances. Go to The Universe of Yahweh Ben Yahweh website and try to refute their doctrine with you concordances! That would be a hoot! They would destroy you! I mean they would cook your brain as in a microwave and then grind it into dust with a mortar and pestle and they'd use your own dictionary/concordance/language tactics to do it.

The fact is that the bible isn't written in some sort of secret code. On the contrary, it was written in quite normal human language that isn't difficult to understand. All you have to do to know that God CREATED the universe in six days is to read the first chapter of Genesis. You can read it in Hebrew if you want but you can just as well read it in Greek, Spanish, French, German, Navajo or English! Just pick a language that you understand, read the passage and you'll get it. It isn't hard at all but if you happen to be particularly slow then read the passage to any random third grade child and ask him what it means and he'll get it right.

People like you who confuse things do so for ulterior motives. They have an agenda. Some are more nefarious than others. The Yahweh Ben Yahweh idiots want to control your life (and your money) through lies and fear. You seem to simply have some pet doctrine you're trying to protect or perhaps you just desire to sound educated and find the use of concordances and dictionaries as a convenient means to apply that mask. Who knows and, frankly, who cares?
 
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oatmeal

Well-known member
You missed the point, you stupid, slobbering moron!

First of all, what you said here isn't how language works but, more importantly, my point had to do with the highlighted portion, "ALL THAT IS IN THEM". Whether God "created" them or "made" them, as if there's a difference, the point is that He did it all in six days and then called all of it "very good". All of it. Not some of it, not most of it but all of it was "very good" by God's own declaration, including both the Earth and everything in it and Heaven and everything in it. This includes the angels and especially the arch angels Gabriel, Michael AND Lucifer. All three were created, or made or whatever word you want to use, in six days and they were made "VERY GOOD"!

And in case you aren't capable of connecting the dots yourself. That means Lucifer rebelled and became "Satan" at some point after the creation week.


It is no more appropriate than is "was". The meaning of a word is not determined by the dictionary but by the context.

You should read a book sometime about how dictionaries are made and maybe (probably not but maybe) you'll begin to understand how language works and that your manner of doing doctrine by means of concordances is fallacious. Defining a word is not the straight forward process that you seem to think it is. In fact, doing doctrine by means of concordances, the way you are doing it, is so asinine that there are cults that prop up their entire doctrine by use of dictionaries and concordances. Go to The Universe of Yahweh Ben Yahweh website and try to refute their doctrine with you concordances! That would be a hoot! They would destroy you! I mean they would cook your brain as in a microwave and then grind it into dust with a mortar and pestle and they'd use your own dictionary/concordance/language tactics to do it.

The fact is that the bible isn't written in some sort of secret code. On the contrary, it was written in quite normal human language that isn't difficult to understand. All you have to do to know that God CREATED the universe in six days is to read the first chapter of Genesis. You can read it in Hebrew if you want but you can just as well read it in Greek, Spanish, French, German, Navajo or English! Just pick a language that you understand, read the passage and you'll get it. It isn't hard at all but if you happen to be particularly slow then read the passage to any random third grade child and ask him what it means and he'll get it right.

People like you who confuse things do so for ulterior motives. They have an agenda. Some are more nefarious than others. The Yahweh Ben Yahweh idiots want to control your life (and your money) through lies and fear. You seem to simply have some pet doctrine you're trying to protect or perhaps you just desire to sound educated and find the use of concordances and dictionaries as a convenient means to apply that mask. Who knows and, frankly, who cares?
Your insults are not winning any souls here.

I see no reason to reply to your evil heart
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
And how is this not creation? (Hint: it is creation).
When Scripture says God is light, is it metaphor? like when it says God is love? or God is holy? or God is One? or God is a rock? Or are we supposed to take it literally? Because if the Scripture is literal where it says God is light, then of course light is not created. But if light is created, then also, equally, of course, then light is not God and God is not light, it must be a metaphor.

Maybe Oatmeal @oatmeal is just taking the Scripture very wooden literally and should be reading more metaphor in the Bible than he's currently doing.
 

Clete

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Silver Subscriber
When Scripture says God is light, is it metaphor? like when it says God is love? or God is holy? or God is One? or God is a rock? Or are we supposed to take it literally? Because if the Scripture is literal where it says God is light, then of course light is not created. But if light is created, then also, equally, of course, then light is not God and God is not light, it must be a metaphor.

Maybe Oatmeal @oatmeal is just taking the Scripture very wooden literally and should be reading more metaphor in the Bible than he's currently doing.
God is not physical, God is Spirit. As such, He is not light in the physical sense of the term and saying that "God is light." is a figure of speech with a range of possible meanings not the least of which is "the 'light' of understanding" as in John 1:4-5.
 

JudgeRightly

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God is not physical, God is Spirit. As such, He is not light in the physical sense of the term and saying that "God is light." is a figure of speech with a range of possible meanings not the least of which is "the 'light' of understanding" as in John 1:4-5.

This is why "reason" or "logic" makes more sense as a translation for LOGOS in John 1:1, because it ties the whole chapter together!
 

slide

New member
Thank you for providing that verse.

In Exodus 20:11, did the Lord "make" or "create" in six days? Your verse says made, which is the Hebrew word, asa. The word for create is an entirely different word, bara. Thank you for making my point.
To create is to produce something from nothing. To 'make' something is to produce something from substances already created.
 
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