ECT You Must Work Out Your Salvation

Catholic Crusader

Catholic Crusader

Kyrie Eleison
Banned
Interplanner said:
But this does not pass the test of Rom 8:4 which is the most involved of Paul's declarations about how to relate justification and personal transformation. One is cause and one is effect. If there is no effect, the cause never took place.

1, justification is what God did in Christ for us. This deals with debt.
2, transformation is what God does in us through the Spirit. This deals with sin's stains.

In 8:4 he puts no value on people doing the Law 'kata sarka'--according to flesh or human nature. That's what he used to be like. There is no Spirit at work. But likewise he never sees a Christian who believes on justification who is Spirit-less. Instead 'dikaioma' is produced in that person. Not because the person is obligating God, nor thinks he can, but in excited response to God's gift of justification.
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When Paul speaks of the Law, he speaks of the Torah. And he's right: The Torah does not save. But works that Jesus told us to do, prompted by the Holy Spirit are salvific.

Another important thing to remember is that we cannot earn our salvation,but we can merit it. There is a difference. The difference between "earn" (or earning) and "merit" is important.

God gives us the grace to do meritorious works, but it is an act of the will to actually cooperate with that grace and do them. We are not puppets on a string that automatically do good works because you have become a Christian as some people suggest. You must exercise your will to actually DO them. That is why they are works.

But again, that does not mean we can "earn" our salvation. Let me give an analogy:

Let us say that I tell my 7-year old boy that he needs to "earn his keep" by doing chores. Or let's say that he "earns" his allowance by taking the garbage out. Now there is NO WAY that a 7-year old can ever earn the food, shelter, medical care, and everything else I provide for him. BUT: Because I am his father, and because I made a promise to him, I will keep my word if he does his chores. If he does not, then he will not receive his reward.

By doing his "chores", he "merits" what I give him. He does not "earn" it because I do not "owe" him anything. But he does "merit" it because I gave my word that I would reward him. This is what a good father does because it teaches values and helps us grow, and Our Father in heaven is the wisest Father of all.

Therefore, if God promises to reward our good works with salvation, it does not mean we "earned" it, it simply means he made a promise. BUT: If we do not do these things, we will not receive our promised reward.
 
D

Danoh

New member
CatholicCrusader said:
I guess I win
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Nope. The following is right.

Interplanner said:
But this does not pass the test of Rom 8:4 which is the most involved of Paul's declarations about how to relate justification and personal transformation. One is cause and one is effect. If there is no effect, the cause never took place.

1, justification is what God did in Christ for us. This deals with debt.
2, transformation is what God does in us through the Spirit. This deals with sin's stains.

In 8:4 he puts no value on people doing the Law 'kata sarka'--according to flesh or human nature. That's what he used to be like. There is no Spirit at work. But likewise he never sees a Christian who believes on justification who is Spirit-less. Instead 'dikaioma' is produced in that person. Not because the person is obligating God, nor thinks he can, but in excited response to God's gift of justification.
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Rom. 5:6-8 proves it is right.
 
D

Danoh

New member
CatholicCrusader said:
One verse does not negate the whole of the Bible. Thats just stupid.
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You can't be referring to Rom. 5:6-8, as that is three verses, not one.

:chuckle:

Further, those three passages are based on an argument begun all the way in Romans 1:16 and ending at Romans 5:21.

That's a total of 123 verses, not your supposed "one."

All pointing to, and culminating in...Romans 5:6-8.

Put another way...

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Put away your pagan based tradition - the RCC - and trust in Romans 1:18-3:31.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Now, if you wish to call doing so "stupid" well, its your "barbecue."

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rom. 5:6-8.
 
E

eleos

New member
CatholicCrusader said:

We Can Work It Out
By Tim Staples - source link

(Quoted with permission)



About Tim Staples:
[url]http://www.catholic.com/profiles/tim-staples[/URL]
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Nowhere in the Bible were babies baptized. Baptizing is to be done by submersion ... just like Jesus was. In ALL things we are to walk in Jesus' foot steps. The submersion symbolizes death, burial and resurrection accepting Christ as ones Savior.

Babies were dedicated not baptized in biblical times. Not one instance of a baby being baptized by any of the apostles.

It is not "our works" .... it is the work Jesus does in us .... it is His works.
 
P

popsthebuilder

New member
Philippians 2: 1. If then I can appeal to you as the followers of Christ, if there is any persuasive power in love and any common sharing of the Spirit, or if you have any tender-heartedness and compassion, make my joy complete by being of one mind, 2. united by mutual love, with harmony of feeling giving your minds to one and the same object. 3. Do nothing in a spirit of factiousness or of vainglory, but, with true humility, let every one regard the rest as being of more account than himself; 4. each fixing his attention, not simply on his own interests, but on those of others also. 5. Let the same disposition be in you which was in Christ Jesus. 6. Although from the beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped. 7. Nay, He stripped Himself of His glory, and took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men. 8. And being recognized as truly human, He humbled Himself and even stooped to die; yes, to die on a cross. 9. It is in consequence of this that God has also so highly exalted Him, and has conferred on Him the Name which is supreme above every other, 10. in order that in the Name of JESUS every knee should bow, of beings in Heaven, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld, 11. and that every tongue should confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD, to the glory of God the Father. 12. Therefore, my dearly-loved friends, as I have always found you obedient, labour earnestly with fear and trembling--not merely as though I were present with you, but much more now since I am absent from you--labour earnestly, I say, to make sure of your own salvation. 13. For it is God Himself whose power creates within you the desire to do His gracious will and also brings about the accomplishment of the desire. 14. Be ever on your guard against a grudging and contentious spirit, 15. so that you may always prove yourselves to be blameless and spotless--irreproachable children of God in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you are seen as heavenly lights in the world, 16. holding out to them a Message of Life. It will then be my glory on the day of Christ that I did not run my race in vain nor toil in vain.


(If our "faith" doesn't produce good fruit, then it isn't actual faith.)
 
Catholic Crusader

Catholic Crusader

Kyrie Eleison
Banned
popsthebuilder said:
Philippians 2: 1. If then I can appeal to you as the followers of Christ, if there is any persuasive power in love and any common sharing of the Spirit, or if you have any tender-heartedness and compassion, make my joy complete by being of one mind, 2. united by mutual love, with harmony of feeling giving your minds to one and the same object. 3. Do nothing in a spirit of factiousness or of vainglory, but, with true humility, let every one regard the rest as being of more account than himself; 4. each fixing his attention, not simply on his own interests, but on those of others also. 5. Let the same disposition be in you which was in Christ Jesus. 6. Although from the beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped. 7. Nay, He stripped Himself of His glory, and took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men. 8. And being recognized as truly human, He humbled Himself and even stooped to die; yes, to die on a cross. 9. It is in consequence of this that God has also so highly exalted Him, and has conferred on Him the Name which is supreme above every other, 10. in order that in the Name of JESUS every knee should bow, of beings in Heaven, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld, 11. and that every tongue should confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD, to the glory of God the Father. 12. Therefore, my dearly-loved friends, as I have always found you obedient, labour earnestly with fear and trembling--not merely as though I were present with you, but much more now since I am absent from you--labour earnestly, I say, to make sure of your own salvation. 13. For it is God Himself whose power creates within you the desire to do His gracious will and also brings about the accomplishment of the desire. 14. Be ever on your guard against a grudging and contentious spirit, 15. so that you may always prove yourselves to be blameless and spotless--irreproachable children of God in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you are seen as heavenly lights in the world, 16. holding out to them a Message of Life. It will then be my glory on the day of Christ that I did not run my race in vain nor toil in vain.


(If our "faith" doesn't produce good fruit, then it isn't actual faith.)
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Okay, so what are you saying in regard to the OP?
 
T

Trump Gurl

Credo in Unum Deum
Jerry Shugart said:
The problem with those who follow the teaching of the church at Rome is the fact that they just flat out refuse to believe what the Savior Himself said about how people are saved
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You know, you will never advance your cause (whatever that is) by lying.

Here you go:


CatholicCrusader said:
We Can Work It Out
By Tim Staples - source link

(Quoted with permission)

James 2:24 is remarkably clear: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Yet millions of Christians teach the opposite: They claim that we are "justified by faith alone"—saying good works are unnecessary for Christians in the process of justification.

This misconception is rooted in the misinterpretation of a few key texts, such as Romans 3:28: "For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law." Romans 4:5 is another: "And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness." On the surface, St. Paul seems to be saying works are not necessary for our justification or salvation in any sense, but that is not the case when we examine the context of these passages. Not only would this interpretation contradict the words of James 2, but it would also contradict Paul himself.

Work in Christ

Paul made very clear in Romans 2:6-8 that good works are necessary for attaining eternal life, at least for those capable of performing them: "For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury."

So what about the fact that Paul also said we are "justified by faith apart from works of law?" He was writing to a church in Rome struggling with a very prominent first-century heretical sect known today as the "Judaizers." These heretics taught that belief in Christ and obedience to the New Covenant was not enough to be saved. A man also had to keep the Mosaic Law (which, according to Hebrews 7:11-12, has been superseded in Christ) and be circumcised in order to be saved (cf. Acts 15:1-2). Paul gave us one clue—among many—that he had this sect in mind when he wrote in Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal . . . " Paul told us in Colossians 2:11-12 that this true "circumcision of Christ" is baptism.

It is in this context that Paul says we are "justified by faith apart from works of law." He did not in any sense say that works are unnecessary. He specified works of law because these were the works without which the Judaizers were claiming one "cannot be saved."

Paul does not specifically say works of law in Romans 4:5, but if we read from Romans 3:28 to Romans 4:5 and beyond, the context makes it unmistakable: Paul was referring to circumcision in particular and the same "works of law" he was referring to in Romans 3:28. Romans 4:5-10 will suffice to make the point:
And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness . . . Is this blessing pronounced only upon the circumcised, or also upon the uncircumcised? We say that faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.​

Paul used the example of the "Judaizers" to teach the truth about the nature of justification and works. The works that justify us—as we saw in Romans 2:6-11 and James 2:24—are works done in Christ. Indeed, in Romans 2:4, before Paul even begins to talk about the works we must do to be saved, he says, "Knowest thou not, that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance" (Douay-Rheims). It is only God’s goodness that leads us to repentance so that we can perform good works. How do we get "in Christ" according to Paul? Through baptism: "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death . . ." (Rom 6:3-4). It is only after we are in Christ and trusting in the power of his grace at work within us that we have the power to remain in him: "Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God" (Rom 5:1-2).

Moreover, in Romans 6:16, Paul tells us that after baptism, obedience to Christ leads us to justification while sin will lead us to death (see also Romans 6:23): "Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness" (Gk. eis dikaiosunen, unto justification).

Paul’s emphasis is not just on good works, but works done in and through the power of Christ. Thus, in Romans 8:1-14,Paul tells us in no uncertain terms that we must be in Christ in order to do works that please God.
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus . . . who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit . . . and those who are in the flesh cannot please God . . . So, then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.​

Remember that Paul is emphasizing our continuing in Christ, in his grace or "kindness" as he says in Romans 11:22. "Note then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off."

Work through Love

When Paul wrote his letter to the Galatians, he had these same "Judaizers" in mind:
Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh . . . Now I Paul say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness (Gk. dikaiosoune, justification). For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. (Gal 3:2-3, 5:2-6)​

Evidently, some of the Galatians were giving in to the false teaching that commanded them to return to the Law of Moses for salvation. He warns them that returning to the old Law is to reject Christ. But he in no way even hints at any idea of a "justification by faith alone" that would deny the necessity of "faith working through love." Paul writes in the simplest of terms, in Galatians 5:19-21 and 6:7-9, that if Christians allow themselves to be dominated by their "flesh," or lower nature, they will not make it to heaven. While on the flip side, Christians will only reap the reward of eternal life if they continue to "sow to the Spirit" or perform good works:
Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God . . . Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (eternal death); but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.​

Work out Salvation

Ephesians 2:8-9 declares: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast." This is another text commonly used to dismiss good works as necessary for salvation in the life of a Christian. However, once again, context is the key to understanding Paul. In verses 4-6, he says: "But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ . . . and raised us up with him . . ."

Context reveals that St. Paul was talking about the initial grace of salvation or justification by which we are raised from death unto life. The construction of the Greek text of Ephesians 2:8-9 makes clear that both grace and faith are entirely unmerited. Many Protestants are shocked to discover this is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches—and baptizes babies to prove it. How much more can the Church do to demonstrate this truth? What kind of works could a newborn baby have done to merit anything? However, once that baby grows up and reaches the age of accountability, he must begin to "work out [his] own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in [him], both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil 2:12-13). Or, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:10: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Are we justified or saved by faith, according to Jesus? Certainly! But by faith alone that would exclude works in every sense? No way. In John 11:25, we read: "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live." That is faith. Yet, in Matthew 19:17-19, Jesus declared: ". . . If you would enter life, keep the commandments . . . You shall not kill, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and, you shall love your neighbor as yourself." That is works.

In Matthew 12:37, Jesus puts any thought of justification by faith alone to rest: ". . . for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
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About Tim Staples:
http://www.catholic.com/profiles/tim-staples
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Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Trump Gurl said:
[h=1]Does the Church Teach that Good Works Merit Salvation?[/h]
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Rome certainly teaches that no one can be saved apart from good works. But what do the Scriptures say?:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

Rome denies that believing the gospel brings salvation despite the following words from the pen of Paul:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​
 
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Jerry Shugart said:
Rome certainly teaches that no one can be saved apart from good works. But what do the Scriptures say?:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

Rome denies that believing the gospel brings salvation despite the following words from the pen of Paul:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​
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Are you one who believes in more than one gospel?
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
User Name said:
Are you one who believes in more than one gospel?
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Of course the "gospel" which was preached by the Twelve at Luke 9:6 cannot possibly be the same gospel that declares "Christ died for our sins" because when they preached that gospel they didn't even know that the Lord Jesus was going to die (Lk.18:33-34).
 
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Jerry Shugart said:
The Greek word translated "salvation" in that verse also means "deliverance." Paul was telling the believers in Phillipi that they must work out their deliverance from the suffering that they would experience for the Lord's sake (Phil.1:29).
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That same Greek word is used 46 times throughout the New Testament, including in Romans 10:10 -- "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_4991.htm
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
User Name said:
That same Greek word is used 46 times throughout the New Testament, including in Romans 10:10 -- "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
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The Greek word is translated "deliver" in the following verse:

"For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not" (Acts 7:25).​
 
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