Works, Salvation, Merit

[csuguy]

A false-dilemma is usually presented to us whenever we speak of the relationship of works to salvation: either Christ's sacrifice is sufficient and our sins have been paid for without us having to do anything, or else Christ's sacrifice was insufficient and one must earn their salvation. Faith-only folks defend the first and criticize anything else as if it were the second - as if people were trying to earn their way into heaven. They do not consider the other option: that while we do not earn salvation, that we do not earn forgiveness, there are requirements to God's gifts.

Let us consider the gift of forgiveness. In a parable of a king settling his accounts (Matthew 18:21-35) Jesus speaks of a man who owed 10,000 talents but was unable to pay the debt. He is forgiven this debt by the king. However, this same man is owed 100 denarii by another who cannot pay him back. Rather than show him the same mercy he has recieved, he has the other man put in prison until he can pay back his debt. Upon hearing of this, the king revokes his forgiveness from the first man and has him thrown in prison until he can pay back all of his debts.

There are two important points to this story. First it makes clear that there is at least one requirement to the gift of forgiveness: you must forgive others their sins when they repent. If you don't, then neither will God forgive you. Secondly, the story points out the vast difference in debt that the first man had to the king versus what the first man was owed by another. 10,000 talents vs 100 denarii. So one cannot say if the first man had forgiven the second that that he thereby earned his own forgiveness.

And this is the key to understanding why it can be said that there are requirements to salvation, but that we do not earn salvation. God's blessings and promises to us are so much greater than what is required of us. God forgives us all of our sins when we repent, adopts us as his sons and daughters, and makes us co-heirs with Christ of the Kingdom. He asks us to forgive those who repent. Christ gave his life so to reconcile us to God and to give us eternal life. We are asked to carry our cross daily and follow him, to use our lives to do God's will.

God's gifts have requirements - but so great is the gift in comparison to the requirements that we cannot even begin to say that we have somehow earned it.

 

[Totton Linnet]

No it's not good enough, either the gift is free or it is not, it doesn't matter how small a condition you put, that condition still makes salvation an earned thing

 

[csuguy]

No it's not good enough, either the gift is free or it is not, it doesn't matter how small a condition you put, that condition still makes salvation an earned thing

Jesus teaches in that parable that you are required to forgive others or else you will not be forgiven. So there is no debate that there are requirements.

Are you therefore saying that Christ is here (Matthew 18:21-35) teaching us to earn forgiveness? Do you earn 10,000 talents by forgiving 100 denarii?

 

[Totton Linnet]

The forgiveness taught here is not about salvation but about our daily walk.

Jesus does not say..."you will not forgive therefore God is no longer your Father"

 

[Totton Linnet]

It is the awesome, overwhelming, revelation of God's grace and the freeness of it that causes an overflow of gratitude in the heart....that is motivational.

 

[csuguy]

The forgiveness taught here is not about salvation but about our daily walk.

Jesus does not say..."you will not forgive therefore God is no longer your Father"

God is the Father of all - that doesn't mean people don't go to hell. If you are not forgiven then you must pay for your own sins - which means death. If you are not forgiven then there is no salvation.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Of the Pharisees the Lord said "your father is the devil...."

We have to stop thinking that everything Jesus taught was in reference to salvation. Peter had said "Lord how often should I forgive my brother" it is about discipleship, not salvation

 

[csuguy]

Of the Pharisees the Lord said "your father is the devil...."

We have to stop thinking that everything Jesus taught was in reference to salvation. Peter had said "Lord how often should I forgive my brother" it is about discipleship, not salvation

He was here speaking of sin and forgiveness. Do you think these irrelevant to salvation?

 

[Totton Linnet]

He was here speaking of sin and forgiveness. Do you think these irrelevant to salvation?

...but not with regard to salvation, but with regard to fellowship and discipleship among brethren.

 

[csuguy]

...but not with regard to salvation, but with regard to fellowship and discipleship among brethren.

So... you are saying that sin and forgiveness have nothing to do with salvation?

And the passage in question cannot be limited to brethren within the church - there is no contextual restraint that affords such an interpretation.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I am saying that sin and forgiveness is not always salvation related.

Salvation is entirely separated out, once we is saved we can start thinking about discipleship and how to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

But first is salvation and that is entirely free.

My contention is this.....we never really progress in our walk with God and in fellowship, growth in grace and discipleship until we are firmly established in the principle of FREE salvation by grace alone.

 

[csuguy]

I am saying that sin and forgiveness is not always salvation related.

Do you have any scriptures to defend this? Or are you just making this up? :AMR:

Salvation is entirely separated out, once we is saved we can start thinking about discipleship and how to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

But first is salvation and that is entirely free.

My contention is this.....we never really progress in our walk with God and in fellowship, growth in grace and discipleship until we are firmly established in the principle of FREE salvation by grace alone.

You contradict yourself. You say that first comes salvation, and that is entirely free, but then you need to work out your salvation wtih fear and trembling. What need is there to work out your salvation with fear and trembling if you have already received it and there are no conditions?

 

[Totton Linnet]

Do you have any scriptures to defend this? Or are you just making this up? :AMR:



You contradict yourself. You say that first comes salvation, and that is entirely free, but then you need to work out your salvation wtih fear and trembling. What need is there to work out your salvation with fear and trembling if you have already received it and there are no conditions?

The "workers" often seize upon that scripture to show that salvation must be earned.

But to me the first thing it says is I'm saved, salvation is a thing which I possess, it is mine.

I believe only folks who have come into vital and blessed fellowship with God truly understand that scripture....I see many who I am sure are saved but who do not seem to be in very close fellowship with God, they pray but little, their bible study is dry and they show little interest in fellowship with others or in soulwinning.

Now this is a condition into which any of us can fall...whole churches.

I believe it is a fearful condition, one to be dreaded and guarded against and I believe it comes with a heavy price tag.

If we have had blest times of sweet communion with God, if the bible is a live book to us. If we have been used of Him to bring salvation or blessing to others....we will fear and tremble lest we lose this state of blessing.

 

[csuguy]

The "workers" often seize upon that scripture to show that salvation must be earned.

But to me the first thing it says is I'm saved, salvation is a thing which I possess, it is mine.

I believe only folks who have come into vital and blessed fellowship with God truly understand that scripture....I see many who I am sure are saved but who do not seem to be in very close fellowship with God, they pray but little, their bible study is dry and they show little interest in fellowship with others or in soulwinning.

Now this is a condition into which any of us can fall...whole churches.

I believe it is a fearful condition, one to be dreaded and guarded against and I believe it comes with a heavy price tag.

If we have had blest times of sweet communion with God, if the bible is a live book to us. If we have been used of Him to bring salvation or blessing to others....we will fear and tremble lest we lose this state of blessing.

In other words, you can't defend your position from scripture and you know it - but you feel that you are right anyway...

Nevermind that scripture says that only those who do the will of the Father will be saved, no matter that is says that faith without works is useless and cannot save you, nevermind that it says that you must forgive to be forgiven, or that you must work out your salvation with fear and trembling. You "know" that you are saved unconditionally - regardless of what the scriptures say :AMR:

 

[Totton Linnet]

The will of the Father is that we BELIEVE

Now you must set works in opposition to believing

Because works say "ok God, I have done thus and so therefore as God you are legally bound to respond by granting me such and such" in other words it is knowledge based.

But when I hear about the kingdom of God, a new birth, being made ALIVE in my spirit I immediately recognize that I have nothing in me, nor can I find anything that I can do that will equate to this new birth....

I want it but it is outside my capabilities to obtain....I see that this life is in the Son and that He gives it to whosoever He will

I cry "Jesus...Jesus......have mercy on me"


That's all I can do.

 

[Totton Linnet]

The will of the Father is that we BELIEVE

Now you must set works in opposition to believing

Because works say "ok God, I have done thus and so therefore as God you are legally bound to respond by granting me such and such" in other words it is knowledge based.

But when I hear about the kingdom of God, a new birth, being made ALIVE in my spirit I immediately recognize that I have nothing in me, nor can I find anything that I can do that will equate to this new birth....

I want it but it is outside my capabilities to obtain....I see that this life is in the Son and that He gives it to whosoever He will

I cry "Jesus...Jesus......have mercy on me"


That's all I can do.

.....He doesn't respond by saying first you must do this, that or the other. He responds by saying "today salvation has come to this house"

 

[csuguy]

The will of the Father is that we BELIEVE

Beleif is important because it guides your actions. Belief without action is pointless, it is dead, and it cannot save you - as James says. Jesus says this:

Matthew 7:21-27 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and [o]acts on them, [p]may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the [q]floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not [r]act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”​

If you believe Jesus, but do not act, then you are as the man who built his house on the sand.

Now you must set works in opposition to believing
Because works say "ok God, I have done thus and so therefore as God you are legally bound to respond by granting me such and such" in other words it is knowledge based.

But when I hear about the kingdom of God, a new birth, being made ALIVE in my spirit I immediately recognize that I have nothing in me, nor can I find anything that I can do that will equate to this new birth....

I want it but it is outside my capabilities to obtain....I see that this life is in the Son and that He gives it to whosoever He will

Works are not in opposition to belief. Rather - works are the actualization of faith, and serve to perfect it.

James 2:18-26 But someone [q]may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that [r]God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was [t]perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.​

I cry "Jesus...Jesus......have mercy on me"


That's all I can do.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Now look at the contradiction.

"did we not do this? did we not do that" but their works said Jesus were works of iniquity.

But I did act, I did what Jesus said to do....I received Him

Most [but not all] of those who advocate earning their way to heaven, work hard [or so they say] but they show no sign of having received Jesus.

Again Jesus says "this is the work of God that ye BELIEVE on Him who God hath sent"

BELIEVE, trust Jesus that He will [has] saved you, then believing in Him abide in Him.

 

[csuguy]

With regards God's will, with regards to the kinds of acts he is look for, see the parable of the sheep and goats:

Matthew 25:31-46 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

 

[Totton Linnet]

Come to Him and rest...abide, that is the way also to fruitfulness.

Many are too frantic to bear more than a few crab apples.

When we come to the cross we see there is nothing to do, we've done enough...and anyway we are taken over by the Sabbath.