ECT Works of Law and Works of Grace, Is That Biblical?

[JudgeRightly]

So according to your twisted logic God imputed righteousness to David but David wasn't saved.

You're projecting.

The only reason you think Clete's logic is "twisted" is because you don't rightly divide.

Of course you prove over and over that you refuse to believe anything that contradicts the teaching of those in the Neo-Mad camp.

Of course, you prove over and over that you refuse to believe anything that contradicts the teaching of Jerry Shugart, even if it comes straight from the Bible.

 

[Right Divider]

Of course, you prove over and over that you refuse to believe anything that contradicts the teaching of Jerry Shugart, even if it comes straight from the Bible.

Indeed, he never addresses other scripture given to him. He always goes back to quoting his pet verse in isolation from all others.

 

[Cntrysner]

So according to your twisted logic God imputed righteousness to David but David wasn't saved.

Of course you prove over and over that you refuse to believe anything that contradicts the teaching of those in the Neo-Mad camp. You continue to deny the very words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law where He makes it plain that they were saved by faith alone:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Ro.4:4-8).

Jerry you said...
In this passage Paul speaks of David as being a man whose faith is counted for righteousness apart from works. Since God imputed righteousness to David he was indeed saved apart from works. Or perhaps you want to argue that even though David's faith was counted as righteousness he wasn't saved?

The verse says David described such a man, Paul did not say righteousness was imputed to David.

 

[Clete]

Indeed, he never addresses other scripture given to him. He always goes back to quoting his pet verse in isolation from all others.

And that really is the main point here, right?

It isn't that we ignore Jesus' words, its that we do not ignore everything else He said! We don't formulate our doctrine based on a couple of sentences to the exclusion of everything else so as to turn a covenant of law into a covenant of grace. How hard is that to understand?


How does Jerry justify, even in his own mind, the fact that he incessantly accuses us of ignoring two sentences that Jesus uttered while his doctrine requires one to ignore basically the whole rest of the bible! I mean it's got to be the mightiest feat of proof-texting lunacy I've ever heard of!


He doesn't justify it! That's the answer to that question. He just simply ignores the incongruity because to do otherwise would require him to admit that he's made a gross error that even most children have enough discernment to avoid.

Indeed, he never addresses other scripture given to him. He always goes back to quoting his pet verse in isolation from all others.

Well, to be fair, he actually does address several of his problem texts but that is't the problem. The problem is that he forms his doctrine based on a very few sentences and then forces everything else to say something, anything at all really, so long as it supports, defends and agrees with those few isolated sentences.

And then, of course, if any of us do anything that even looks similar but in the opposite direction, then that is invalid and we're not far from being told that we aren't saved and that we should believe the real gospel, yada yada yada.

 

[Cntrysner]

We don't formulate our doctrine based on a couple of sentences to the exclusion of everything else so as to turn a covenant of law into a covenant of grace. How hard is that to understand?

[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] overlooks the fact that those under the law could only get forgiveness of sins from blood sacrifice as directed by God in the Mosaic Covenant and grants all under the law the gift of God's righteousness before Christ shed His blood at the cross. I fear Jerry himself is under the law as Paul describe those without law are a law unto themselves.

 

[Clete]

[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] overlooks the fact that those under the law could only get forgiveness of sins from blood sacrifice as directed by God in the Mosaic Covenant and grants all under the law the gift of God's righteousness before Christ shed His blood at the cross.

Well, yes sort of. It wasn't the blood of bulls that God used to cleanse sin. The blood of animals was always a symbol and God was always looking forward to Christ's shed blood. The point, however, is that most Jews never understood anything about that. As far as they were concerned it was a command that they had to obey in order to have access to any relationship at all with God and that's what they did and that's why they did it and had they not done it, God would have cut them off.

There's very little in the bible that is more clearly communicated than the fact that if you did not obey God's commands, you'd be cut off. But even that much is undergirded by grace because no one is capable of following the law perfectly.

I fear Jerry himself is under the law as Paul describe those without law are a law unto themselves.

Well, even if we foolishly place ourselves under the law, grace trumps the law in so far as our salvation is concerned. Where we cripple ourselves by submitting to the law is in our daily walk.

But Jerry isn't trying to place anyone under the law (unless I've missed something - which is possible because I really don't read hardly any of his posts), he's just denying that anyone was ever under it.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You're projecting.

The only reason you think Clete's logic is "twisted" is because you don't rightly divide.

Unlike you and Clete I actually believe the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" (Jn.11:25).​

You and Clete cannnot even understand these words of His because your theology is not based on what the Scriptures actually say but instead on what those in the Neo-MAD camp say about the Scriptures.

I wouldn't want to be in your shoes when you come face to face with the Lord Jesus and He reminds you that you just flat out refused to believe His plain words. It is those who "believe God" who are justified in His eyes (Ro.4:3) and you both prove over and over that you don't believe what God Himself said.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The verse says David described such a man, Paul did not say righteousness was imputed to David.

Who do you think that Paul was referring to in the following passage in "bold"?

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also?" (Ro.4:5-9).​

@Jerry Shugart overlooks the fact that those under the law could only get forgiveness of sins from blood sacrifice as directed by God in the Mosaic Covenant and grants all under the law the gift of God's righteousness before Christ shed His blood at the cross.

I will believe what Peter said about this instead of you:

"And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:42-43).​

 

[JudgeRightly]

Unlike you and Clete I actually believe the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" (Jn.11:25).​

Thanks for proving our point, which is that you believe those scriptures TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL OTHER SCRIPTURE.

You and Clete cannnot even understand these words of His because your theology is not based on what the Scriptures actually say but instead on what those in the Neo-MAD camp say about the Scriptures.

How many times are you going to make this straw man?

We believe that Christ meant EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID within the context of His ministry of the law.

I wouldn't want to be in your shoes when you come face to face with the Lord Jesus and He reminds you that you just flat out refused to believe His plain words.

Usually when someone uses this fear tactic, it's because they don't really believe their own position, and are trying to convince others so that they feel good about how weak their own position is.

I'm secure in my position. You clearly are not.

It is those who "believe God" who are justified in His eyes (Ro.4:3) and you both prove over and over that you don't believe what God Himself said.

:blabla:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Well, to be fair, he actually does address several of his problem texts but that is't the problem. The problem is that he forms his doctrine based on a very few sentences and then forces everything else to say something, anything at all really, so long as it supports, defends and agrees with those few isolated sentences.

Yes, I actually addressed several of what you call "problem texts" but you do not address the verses which I quoted from the lips of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law where He made it clear that they were saved by faith and faith alone:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).​

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (Jn.6:41).​

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

He told a Jewish woman that her faith saved her:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

According to you and the teaching of the Neo-MAD crew none of the Jews who lived under the law could be saved apart from works despite the plain words of the Lord and Savior.

 

[Cntrysner]

Who do you think that Paul was referring to in the following passage in "bold"?

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also?" (Ro.4:5-9).​

I will believe what Peter said about this instead of you:

"And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:42-43).​

Jerry, do you believe one can lose salvation if they don't endure in their faith as those that were granted remission before the cross?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, do you believe one can lose salvation if they don't endure in their faith as those that were granted remission before the cross?

Why don't you answer my points? I answered you but now you want to change the subject!

 

[Cntrysner]

Why don't you answer my points? I answered you but now you want to change the subject!

I am trying to understand what you believe, so would you please give me an answer.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I am trying to understand what you believe, so would you please give me an answer.

You just ignored every point I made against your ideas so I cannot imagine that anything I might say will change that. So if you want me to answer your question then answer the question I previously asked you:

Who do you think that Paul was referring to in the following passage in "bold"?

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also?" (Ro.4:5-9).​

 

[Cntrysner]

You just ignored every point I made against your ideas so I cannot imagine that anything I might say will change that. So if you want me to answer your question then answer the question I previously asked you:

Who do you think that Paul was referring to in the following passage in "bold"?

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also?" (Ro.4:5-9).​

Paul is referring to a man that David describes as being freed from the penalty of sin. The only way to receive that gift is to be justified and that justification was made possible by the faith Christ had that the Father would raise him from the dead when he gave his life for sin at the cross.

All OT believers that passed and had faith in God who saves by His grace did not receive the promise yet they were saved.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; for he is faithful that promised


Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Before the cross it was not possible to receive eternal life which in my mind is perfection, the removal of sin eternally, yet it was promised if they endured in their faith and believed the works of Christ when He said...It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul is referring to a man that David describes as being freed from the penalty of sin.

I asked you who is being referred to in the following verse in "bold":

"Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also?"​

The verse is referring to the Jews who had to be circumcized according to the law. And here is the blessedness of which Paul speaks that came to the Jews who lived under the law:

"the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."​

The Jewish believers who lived under the law received the imputed righteousness of God apart from works. So they were saved by faith alone.

Before the cross it was not possible to receive eternal life which in my mind is perfection, the removal of sin eternally, yet it was promised if they endured in their faith and believed the works of Christ when He said...It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

The Lord Jesus said the following:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

Therefore, John 6:47 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

Even though the Lord Jesus had not yet died on the Cross God knew that He would redeem their sins later so He could give them eternal life before the Cross:

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" (Heb.9:15).​

 

[Cntrysner]

Even though the Lord Jesus had not yet died on the Cross God knew that He would redeem their sins later so He could give them eternal life before the Cross:

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" (Heb.9:15).​

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Why do you refuse to believe the following words of the Lord Jesus?:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, John 6:47 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

With God all things are possible so if He wanted to give eternal life to anyone before the Cross then who are you to say that He couldn't do that? Believe the Lord Jesus because He said that those who believed prior to the Cross possessed eternal life.

 

[Clete]

Yes, I actually addressed several of what you call "problem texts" but you do not address the verses which I quoted from the lips of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law where He made it clear that they were saved by faith and faith alone:

Because you're delutional, Jerry!

Even this little bit of cat and mouse I've been engaging with you in these last few weeks is more than your tactics deserve. If you were half the debator you think you are you'd have taken full advantage of the intellectual ground that I've needlessly conceded by engaging you as far as I have. To respond to your proof texting insanity directly would concede you ground that you've not earned in any sense of the word and would make it impossible for the discussion to proceed at all. Besides, there's no direct response that you would find acceptable in the slightest. Well, that is any response except one that agreed with your doctrine, anyway. Anything short of that would be met with "Why do you refuse to believe the words of Jesus?", which I'm convinced you must have programed into a hot key on your keyboard.

In short, I have responded, just not in the way you want me to. I've proven, and I mean that literally, I have proven that you over emphasise basically two to five sentences worth of scripture to the exclusion of the whole rest of the bible. It's frankly laughable that you take my concession that you've responded to some of your problem texts as my having conceded that you've answered my argument. You haven't come within a country mile of doing that nor are you capable of doing so because you don't seem to care what the over all massage of the bible is. You're content with building an entire doctrinal worldview on the back of maybe half a dozen sentences and twisting or entirely ignoring entire sections of the bible, not the least of which include words from Jesus Himself that directly contradict your doctrine which is based on words from Jesus Christ Himself. It was a forgone conclusion that you'd respond to at least some problem texts because that's the ground upon which your doctrine is built! You don't even understand my argument! You think that I've simply burried you in problem texts! I have buried you in problem texts but that isn't the strength of my argument. On the contrary, that's the strength of yours! Indeed, the fact that my arguments are stronger than yours even on your own terf is the only reason I've engaged you at all.

In short, you've got maybe half a dozen verses or so and I've got the bulk of the entire bible (not to mention the whole history and tradition of both Christianity and Judaism). So when you've refuted the message and meaning of the whole of scritpure then I'll concider dealing directly with your favorite five or six sentences.


Clete

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Because you're delutional, Jerry!

You remain the natural man, Clete:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:14).​

It is only those who are born of God who cease from being what Paul calls the "natural man" and are saved. And we can see that the Apostle John recognized the fact that the Jews who lived under the law became the sons of God and were born of God by believing and nothing more:

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).​

Of course these words mean nothing to you because you haven't yet been born of God. You still cannot understand the following words of Peter which demonstrate that the Jewish believers were born again by the word of God apart from works because these words must be spiritually discerned:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

James teaches the same thing to the Jewish believers but you are unable to understand his following words because they must be spiritually discerned:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

The reason that you cannot understand these words concerning how a person becomes a son of God by being born again is because you put more faith about what those in the Neo-MAD say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually say. And that explains your silence concerning the meaning of the following words spoken by the Lord Jesus to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).​

"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (Jn.6:41).​

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" (Jn.11:25-26).​

He told a Jewish woman that her faith saved her:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:48-50).​

According to you and the other natural men belonging to the Neo-MAD crew none of the Jews who lived under the law could be saved apart from works despite the plain words of the Lord and Savior. You can't understand the words of the Lord Jesus I just quoted because they are spiritually discerned.

In short, I have responded, just not in the way you want me to.

The way you have responded is by quoting verses which you think proves that the words of the Lord Jesus which I have just quoted are not true. Your main argument concerns your idea that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works so I quoted what Paul said about David, who lived under the law:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered" (Ro.4:5-7).​

According to Paul David received the imputed righteousness of God apart from works but you say that David's receiving the imputed righteousness of God didn't save him.According to your ideas God's righteousness was not sufficient to save David. That proves once again that you remain a natural man who is unable to discern spiritual things.