ECT Works of Law and Works of Grace, Is That Biblical?

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus has some very interesting and informative words on this subject found in the Sermon on the Mount.

Yes, and we can understand that the "wide" gate which leads to destruction is spoken of here:

"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Prov.14:12).​

In all religions but Christianity it is taught that the way to life is by "works" of one kind or another. But the Lord Jesus, at another place, spoke of the narrow gate which leads to eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

He also said the following:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Believing the Father, the one who sent the Lord Jesus, has eternal life the moment of belief and will not come into judgment. And in the following verse the Lord Jesus speaks of what we are to believe about the Father's will:

"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day" (Jn.6:40).​

That is narrow way which leads to life. But there are some who refuse to believe the words of the Lord Jesus by saying that the Jews who lived under the law and heard His words which I just quoted could not be saved apart from works even though they were saved by the grace of God.

 

[Gary K]

Yes, and we can understand that the "wide" gate which leads to destruction is spoken of here:

"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Prov.14:12).​

In all religions but Christianity it is taught that the way to life is by "works" of one kind or another. But the Lord Jesus, at another place, spoke of the narrow gate which leads to eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

He also said the following:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Believing the Father, the one who sent the Lord Jesus, has eternal life the moment of belief and will not come into judgment. And in the following verse the Lord Jesus speaks of what we are to believe about the Father's will:

"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day" (Jn.6:40).​

That is narrow way which leads to life. But there are some who refuse to believe the words of the Lord Jesus by saying that the Jews who lived under the law and heard His words which I just quoted could not be saved apart from works even though they were saved by the grace of God.

Jesus makes it clear in the passage from the Sermon on the Mount that grace is given us that leads to a saving faith that produces works. His command in the same sermon was "Be ye therefore perfect even as thy Father in heaven is perfect. His words are reinforced elsewhere in the Bible multiple times. Faith without works is dead being alone. Show me thy faith without thy works and I will show you my faith by my works.

Paul, in the well-known verses from Ephesians 2 uses the Greek word charis which Strong's interprets as follows:

[*StrongsGreek*]
05485G5485 χάρις charis khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying) of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable benefit favour gift grace (-ious) joy liberality pleasure thank (-s -worthy).

That divine influence upon the human heart is none other than the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Paul then goes on in Galatians and tells us what the fruit of the Spirit is in the life.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
[SIZE=+1]18[/SIZE] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
[SIZE=+1]19[/SIZE] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[SIZE=+1]20[/SIZE] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[SIZE=+1]21[/SIZE] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
[SIZE=+1]22[/SIZE] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SIZE=+1]23[/SIZE] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
[SIZE=+1]24[/SIZE] And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
[SIZE=+1]25[/SIZE] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

First Paul tells us that the Spirit and our flesh are at war and that warfare leads to our inability to keep God's law. But, and remember that word for the very next verse starts with that word. But, if we are led by the Spirit we are not under the law. How is that for the law condemns us all? We have all broken it. The next few verses explain what Paul means by that phrase. He lists the works of the flesh and says anyone who continues in those works will not inherit the kingdom of God. Then he again uses that word, but. He is saying that even though in our past we have lived a life of sin and the works of the flesh if we follow the Spirit's leading our lives will be one of obedience to God's law for the fruit of the Spirit in the life leads to nothing that is in violation of any law and that those who are Christ's possession have crucified the flesh with all it's works, meaning we have killed the influence of our flesh because we have chosen to live by the Spirit who is living within us. This ought to be apparent to all for God is far, far mightier than sin. Faith in Jesus' forgiveness takes away our condemnation from the law and it replaces it with the fruit of the Spirit which does not violate the law in any way, shape, or form.

Strong's concordance tells us that the word translated as "under" in the phrase "under the law" means inferior to the law:

05259G5259 ὑπόhupohoop-o'
A primary preposition;
under that is (with the genitive) of place (beneath) or with verbs (the agency or means through); (with the accusative) of place (whither [underneath] or where [below]) or time (when [at]): - among by from in of under with. In compounds it retains the same genitive applications especially of inferior position or condition and specifically covertly or moderately.

When are we inferior to the God's law? When we are breaking God's law. For then we are under it's condemnation. The goodness of God makes sure that we can live in a position that is not inferior to the law. His grace is sufficient to solve all spiritual maladies.

Thus, we have works that correspond with our faith in God for God is dwelling within us. Our bodies have become the temple of the living God. He rules within us by our choice. We produce good works, not because of us but because of God's presence and power to save within us. We aren't "working" to gain salvation, but God is working within us due to our salvation from sin. Remember the angel's pronouncement at Jesus' birth? He shall save His people from their sins.

All this goes right along with Jesus' analogy of the good and corrupt trees. Good trees do not produce corrupt fruit, and corrupt trees do not produce good fruit. John also tells us that whosoever that abideth in Him sinneth not, but also tells us that if we say we have no sin we are liars. Yes, while we live on this earth our corrupt flesh always desires to lead us into sin, but if we abide in Jesus and He abides in us we do not sin. Oh what promises are ours. God even promised to write His law within our hearts and take our hearts of stone and replace them with hearts of flesh so that we will look at what we have been and despise it for we will know just how corrupt we will have been all of our lives up to the time we chose Jesus.

God is very truly good and loving.

All this takes to happen for any of us is faith in God for Jesus told us that it will be done unto us according to our faith.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Faith in Jesus' forgiveness takes away our condemnation from the law and it replaces it with the fruit of the Spirit which does not violate the law in any way, shape, or form.

So are you saying that Christians do not sin?

 

[Clete]

Jesus has some very interesting and informative words on this subject found in the Sermon on the Mount.

Jesus was born under the law, He followed the law and taught others to do the same. Same goes for the Twelve apostles and James, who agreed with Paul that they would minister to the Circumcision (i.e. Israel) with the Gospel of Circumcision while Paul went to the gentiles with the Gospel of Uncircircumcision.

Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: )

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.​

You would expect, therefore, that the books of the New Testament written by Peter, James and John, as well as Jesus' teachings as found in the gospels, to be consistent with the dispensation of circumcision (i.e. law) and for Paul to be the one who teaches that we are no longer under the law (i.e. uncircumcision), which happens to be exactly what we find, which, in turn, is why your proof texting doesn't work. You are unwittingly arguing against your own doctrine.

You are not a Jew! You are not a member of the nation of Israel and are not under the covenant of circumcision. You are not under the jurisdiction of the law, nor could you keep it if you were. You jump through all sorts of hoops to turn grace into law in order to make letters written to Israel agree with the mail that was written directly to you. Indeed, what is the purpose of Paul's ministry if he was teaching us to obey the law? Jesus already had twelve apostles for that! There are whole swaths of Paul's writings that make no sense at all if he was simply teaching the same stuff that the Twelve were teaching, (not the least of which is Galatians 2:7-9 which I quoted above), in fact, the existence of his entire ministry makes no sense if his gospel is the same as that of the Twelve.

When are we inferior to the God's law? When we are breaking God's law. For then we are under it's condemnation.

What then is the difference between law and grace?


Clete


P.S. I would just add that doctrine by dictionary is a dangerous practice. Not that we shouldn't use tools like Strong's at all but what you did with the word "under" is frankly hideous. You don't need Strong's to understand what it means to be under the law. It simply means that you are under it's authority; that you are required to follow it and are subject to the punishments it prescribes for breaking it. As usual, the context makes plain the meaning of the figure and in the case of "under the law" it's hardly even a figure of speech except that it's a shortened way of saying "under the law's authority" and doesn't need further explanation anyway.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You would expect, therefore, that the books of the New Testament written by Peter, James and John, as well as Jesus' teachings as found in the gospels, to be consistent with the dispensation of circumcision (i.e. law) and for Paul to be the one who teaches that we are no longer under the law (i.e. uncircumcision), which happens to be exactly what we find, which, in turn, is why your proof texting doesn't. You are unwittingly arguing against your own doctrine.

What is found in the Hebrew epistles is indeed consistent with the following words which the Lord Jesus spoke to the Jews here:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

The Apostle Paul repeatedly used the words "free" and "liberty" when referring to the fact that those in the Body of Christ have been set free from the law:

"And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage" (Gal.2:4).​

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal.5:1).​

In fact, Paul charged the Galatians not to use the liberty as a base of operations for sin:

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another" (Gal.5:13).​

The following words of Peter are likewise speaking of being free and at liberty from the law:

"As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God" (1 Pet.2:16).​

James speaks of the "perfect law of liberty":

"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed" (James 1:25).

Are we to believe that the "law of liberty" spoken of here is the Law, which Peter referred to as a "yoke"?:

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" (Acts 15:10).​

Paul also referred to the Law as a "yoke of bondage":

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal.5:1).​

Paul contrasted the "yoke of bondage" with the "liberty" which belongs to all who have been set free from the law. So common sense dictates that the "perfect law of liberty" of which James speaks is not the Law of Moses. In fact, James tells us exactly how those who received his epistle were saved:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

Peter also said that those who received his epistle were born of God by the gospel:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

 

[Cntrysner]

What is found in the Hebrew epistles is indeed consistent with the following words which the Lord Jesus spoke to the Jews here:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

They did not understand the requirement Jesus spoke of to receive eternal life and therefore did not receive eternal life. It required His flesh and His blood. His blood had to be shed before it could be offered and His sacrifice had to be spiritually consumed.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

They did not understand the requirement Jesus spoke of to receive eternal life and therefore did not receive eternal life. It required His flesh and His blood. His blood had to be shed before it could be offered and His sacrifice had to be spiritually consumed.

The Lord Jesus told them the following:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

Even though the Lord Jesus had not yet died on the Cross God knew that He would redeem their sins later so He could give them eternal life before the Cross:

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" (Heb.9:15).​

 

[Cntrysner]

The Lord Jesus told them the following:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

Even though the Lord Jesus had not yet died on the Cross God knew that He would redeem their sins later so He could give them eternal life before the Cross:

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" (Heb.9:15).​

You have blinders on and can only react to the reins of your doctrine, stop being a mule and realize the context when Christ Jesus spoke. You run an grab scripture like context means nothing, stay in John 6 or at least the time frame and prove your words with scripture that they understood Joh 6:54 and received eternal life at that time.

 

[Cntrysner]

Christ is displaying their unbelief by stating the requirement to receive eternal life.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Cntrysner]

See the requirement, Jerry. The promise was made but it also requires a continuation of belief to receive it and if they failed to endure to the last day then the promise is not received. Without the sacrifice and a belief in it one does not receive the promise even though it was offered at that time.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Christ is displaying their unbelief by stating the requirement to receive eternal life.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

So how many times have you eaten His flesh and had a drink of His blood?

The Lord Jesus told a Jewish woman that she was saved by her faith:

"And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace" (Lk.7:49-50).​

The Jewish woman was not in unbelief and it is obvious that she fulfilled the requirement to receive eternal life because the following is what the Lord Jesus said to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

See the requirement, Jerry. The promise was made but it also requires a continuation of belief to receive it and if they failed to endure to the last day then the promise is not received. Without the sacrifice and a belief in it one does not receive the promise even though it was offered at that time.

Here what is said and the Jewish woman cannot be excluded:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

SHALL NOT PERISH!

 

[Clete]

See the requirement, Jerry. The promise was made but it also requires a continuation of belief to receive it and if they failed to endure to the last day then the promise is not received. Without the sacrifice and a belief in it one does not receive the promise even though it was offered at that time.

Jerry interprets the entire bulk of the bible through basically two sentences in the book of John. He sees nothing else.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry interprets the entire bulk of the bible through basically two sentences in the book of John. He sees nothing else.

Clete is selective about which verses he will believe in the Bible. Some he will believe and others he just ignores. That is why he continually refuses to give us his interpretation of the meaning of the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

 

[Right Divider]

Clete is selective about which verses he will believe in the Bible.

That's hilarious from the one that quotes just a few selected verses over and over and over and over.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That's hilarious from the one that quotes just a few selected verses over and over and over and over.

What is not hilarious but instead is sad is how those in the Neo-MAD camp refuse to believe the Lord Jesus' words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law which makes it plain that they were saved apart from works!

The final authority of those within the Neo-MAD camp is not the Scriptures but instead what some men say about the Scriptures. And that explains why those in the Neo-MAD camp refuse to give their interpretation of the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

 

[JudgeRightly]

What is not hilarious but instead is sad is how those in the Neo-MAD camp refuse to believe the Lord Jesus' words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law which makes it plain that they were saved apart from works!

The final authority of those within the Neo-MAD camp is not the Scriptures but instead what some men say about the Scriptures. And that explains why those in the Neo-MAD camp refuse to give their interpretation of the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

What's really sad is when someone who clams to be a dispensationalist cannot differentiate between two different dispensations, and then because of that, accuses other dispensationalists of rejecting scripture that they do not reject.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What's really sad is when someone who clams to be a dispensationalist cannot differentiate between two different dispensations, and then because of that, accuses other dispensationalists of rejecting scripture that they do not reject.

The different dispensations do not represent different ways that people are saved. Since you consider yourself an expert on the different dispensations tell us what marked the beginning of the present dispensation of the grace of God.

You refuse to even attempt to address the Lord Jesus' words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law at John 6:47 and John 6:63 so let us see if you will even attempt to answer what marked the beginning of the present dispensation.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The different dispensations do not represent different ways that people are saved. Since you consider yourself an expert on the different dispensations tell us what marked the beginning of the present dispensation of the grace of God.

The saving of Paul on the road to Damascus.

You refuse to even attempt to address the Lord Jesus' words spoken to the Jews who lived under the law at John 6:47 and John 6:63

Jesus meant EXACTLY what He said in the context of what His ministry of the Law.

so let us see if you will even attempt to answer what marked the beginning of the present dispensation.

:mock:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The saving of Paul on the road to Damascus.

Of course you provide absolutely no evidence from the Scriptures to support your idea. Are you saying that Paul was the first person saved on the principle of grace? What about Abraham?:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:1-5).​

Again, are you saying that the present dispensation of the grace of God began because Paul was the first person saved by grace? Please explain why you think that the present dispensation began on the road to Damascus.

I say that the present dispensation began when Paul started preaching the gospel of grace to the Gentiles. Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).​

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).​

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).​

There can be no doubt whatsoever that the event which marks the beginning of the "dispensation of grace" is the preaching of the "gospel of grace."

I provided evidence from the Scriptures to support my idea but you provided nothing from the Scriptures. Do you not even know that what the Lord Jesus dispensed to Paul was a "stewardship"?

 

[Clete]

Jesus meant EXACTLY what He said in the context of what His ministry of the Law.

I no longer read Jerry's posts, aside from what might be quoted in other people's posts, but I can tell you that this will not satisfy Jerry - not that anything would.

By "refuse to give an interpretation", what he means is "refuse to accept my premise". Nothing anyone says to Jerry will penetrate unless you happen to accidentally accept his premise and then he'll pounce and proclaim that you've not merely accepted his premise but proven him right.

The fact that our doctrine allows us to read the gospels and understand them to mean what they say sounds like a lie to Jerry's ears. He flat out does not believe us when we make such a claim and there's no way to convince him. He is both deaf and blind to anything that might force him to acknowledge that more than two sentences in the book of John mean what they say without contradiction.

Not to be unkind but it's a kind of delusion, I think. I mean, what does it take for a man to pretend like whole passages of scripture don't exist because of two sentences? Does Psalms 119 not exist, are Hebrews 5 & 6 not scripture, is Jeremiah 7 witten in an unintelligable code, was Deuteronomy 30 not written by Moses at God's command? The depths of denial that must exist in Jerry's mind are beyond measuring. He is the only person I've ever encountered who rejects the notion that obedience to God's commandments was required. It's simple insanity. You might as well argue with him over the color of the sky or which way is down or whether the Sun is a light in the sky.

Clete