ECT Works of Law and Works of Grace, Is That Biblical?

[Jerry Shugart]

Thank you for proving my point! That was way easier to bait you into than I expected!

No, you proved my point because all you have shown us is that you continue to run and hide from these simple words of the Lord Jesus spoken to those who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

Not a word about "works," big shot! But of course since you remain spiritually dead you cannot understand spiritual things.

 

[Cntrysner]

[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION], would you please give me the scriptural difference in the meaning of saved and eternal life or do they have the same meaning?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION], would you please give me the scriptural difference in the meaning of saved and eternal life or do they have the same meaning?

The believer receives eternal life and that life is in His Son:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

When a person believes he is made alive together with Christ and therefore his life can now be described as being eternal because that is the nature of the Lord Jesus:

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ" (Eph.2:5).​

The same can be said of the salvation of the soul. Once a person believes he receives eternal life and he will never perish:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

 

[Cntrysner]

[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION], I'm trying to understand your belief and you can discard my questions as elementary but how then can I believe as you do?

Do you believe that the gospel was revealed progressively concerning the body of Christ and that progression was displayed by His literal body through His flesh, death, resurrection of His flesh, and ascension. If you answer yes it was progressive as it was displayed by Him through His body then doesn't that require a continuation of faith if one truly believes in Christ and His body? Is it proper to say He can save who He chooses along the way waiting for their progressive understanding of His body of works to receive eternal life? Eternal life as I see it is the ultimate gift and requires a complete understanding of His body revealed progressively by gospel and culminates in the true faith that Christ accomplished for eternal life.

 

[Clete]

Jerry's answer to Cntrysner's excellent question brought to mind yet more passages that Jerry must explain away...

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Ezekiel 18:21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.​

Clete


P.S. Jerry's answer was correct, but only for those in this dispensation of grace. His biblical support, while adequate, would be better if he paid some attention to the context of the passages he quotes.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

P.S. Jerry's answer was correct, but only for those in this dispensation of grace. His biblical support, while adequate, would be better if he paid some attention to the context of the passages he quotes.

Why do you refuse to believe that those who believed and lived under the law were saved by grace through faith?:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham" (Ro.4:16).​

I do not think you even understand that grace and works are mutually exclusive so therefore you don't know the meaning of salvation on the principle of grace and therefore you haven't yet believed the gospel which saves, the gospel of the grace of God. Peter was certainly saved by grace through faith, as witnessed by his own words:

"God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are" (Acts 15:8-11).​

It's not too late for you to be saved, Clete. All you have to do is to actually believe the gospel of the grace of God, a gospel which declares that if it is of grace then works plays no part in anyone's salvation:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:4-5).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION], I'm trying to understand your belief and you can discard my questions as elementary but how then can I believe as you do?

Do you believe that the gospel was revealed progressively concerning the body of Christ and that progression was displayed by His literal body through His flesh, death, resurrection of His flesh, and ascension. If you answer yes it was progressive as it was displayed by Him through His body then doesn't that require a continuation of faith if one truly believes in Christ and His body? Is it proper to say He can save who He chooses along the way waiting for their progressive understanding of His body of works to receive eternal life? Eternal life as I see it is the ultimate gift and requires a complete understanding of His body revealed progressively by gospel and culminates in the true faith that Christ accomplished for eternal life.

I really cannot understand what you are asking. Could you please ask it in another way?

Thanks!

 

[Clete]

[MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION], I'm trying to understand your belief and you can discard my questions as elementary but how then can I believe as you do?

Do you believe that the gospel was revealed progressively concerning the body of Christ and that progression was displayed by His literal body through His flesh, death, resurrection of His flesh, and ascension. If you answer yes it was progressive as it was displayed by Him through His body then doesn't that require a continuation of faith if one truly believes in Christ and His body? Is it proper to say He can save who He chooses along the way waiting for their progressive understanding of His body of works to receive eternal life? Eternal life as I see it is the ultimate gift and requires a complete understanding of His body revealed progressively by gospel and culminates in the true faith that Christ accomplished for eternal life.

Where in the bible does it teach anything like "Eternal life requires a complete understanding of His body revealed progressively"?

That hasn't ever been the gospel during any dispensation and it certainly isn't the gospel now.

Romans 10:8b “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”​

Clete

 

[Cntrysner]

Where in the bible does it teach anything like "Eternal life requires a complete understanding of His body revealed progressively"?

That hasn't ever been the gospel during any dispensation and it certainly isn't the gospel now.

Romans 10:8b “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”​

Clete

Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Is there more to be had than just overcoming the world?

1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.


1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1Jn 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

The record of Christ revealed progressively in scripture is his birth, death, resurrection, and the most important for Christians, His ascension. Without ascension the Holy Spirit would not be with us as it was at Pentecost or in us as members of His body.

Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

I think that any Christian would have this understanding.

 

[Cntrysner]

Quote Originally Posted by Cntrysner
@Jerry Shugart, would you please give me the scriptural difference in the meaning of saved and eternal life or do they have the same meaning?

The believer receives eternal life and that life is in His Son:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

When a person believes he is made alive together with Christ and therefore his life can now be described as being eternal because that is the nature of the Lord Jesus:

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ" (Eph.2:5).​

The same can be said of the salvation of the soul. Once a person believes he receives eternal life and he will never perish:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

Saved does not mean eternal life.

Saved, save, salvation, within biblical context can mean many things, I would best define their meaning as being delivered.

Eternal life would mean everlasting life.

To receive eternal life required a continuation of belief as God gave record of His Son.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Saved does not mean eternal life.

If a person has eternal life and that life is in the Son (1 Jn.5:11) then that person enjoys the salvation of his soul.

 

[Clete]

Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Is there more to be had than just overcoming the world?

1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.


1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
1Jn 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

The record of Christ revealed progressively in scripture is his birth, death, resurrection, and the most important for Christians, His ascension. Without ascension the Holy Spirit would not be with us as it was at Pentecost or in us as members of His body.

Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

I think that any Christian would have this understanding.

Well, you're pretty heavily mixing dispensations here but that's beside the point. How does any of what you just said answer my question?

Where in the bible does it teach anything like "Eternal life requires a complete understanding of His body revealed progressively"?

I didn't ask whether it was revealed progressively or whether there is some special significance to the various aspects of Jesus' life, death, burial, resurrection and ascension.

In other words, you seem to be suggesting that there is a whole list of doctrines that culminate with a "complete understanding of His body revealed progressively" that one must believe in order to be saved. I'm asking you where such a requirement for salvation is taught in scripture.

Clete

 

[Cntrysner]

Well, you're pretty heavily mixing dispensations here but that's beside the point. How does any of what you just said answer my question?

I would not propose to serve Christ up in pieces on a platter.

Where in the bible does it teach anything like "Eternal life requires a complete understanding of His body revealed progressively"?

I didn't ask whether it was revealed progressively or whether there is some special significance to the various aspects of Jesus' life, death, burial, resurrection and ascension.

In other words, you seem to be suggesting that there is a whole list of doctrines that culminate with a "complete understanding of His body revealed progressively" that one must believe in order to be saved. I'm asking you where such a requirement for salvation is taught in scripture.

Clete

My remarks were concerning eternal life not being saved. I gave you the scripture. God's record of the eternal Christ reveals the requirement...see 1Jn 5:5-11, know I have not said or at least intended to say who's work it was concerning how the knowledge of it is received or even that one must say the word ascension. Albeit His ascension is rarely discussed in regard to preaching. His ascension was required in order for the Holy Spirit to descend and is more than a gift of power, it is the door way to eternal life.

 

[Cntrysner]

If a person has eternal life and that life is in the Son (1 Jn.5:11) then that person enjoys the salvation of his soul.

I would not argue that at all.

The question I'm proposing to you is if and when and in what order, and what is required by what effectual power to possess eternal life, not a promise or a shadow but actual possession. Not referring to save, saved. or salvation but eternal everlasting life. You seem to say that if you believe by your own faith that Jesus is the Son of God as in the Messiah of a earthly kingdom promised then you possess eternal life. I say no you don't possess eternal life at that point because God all in all has more to offer. It is not an physical earthly kingdom but a Spiritual body kingdom that man's flesh and blood (physical)can not enter.

 

[Clete]

I would not propose to serve Christ up in pieces on a platter.

Who would?

What does that even mean, anyway?

Is that supposed to be some sort of slight against dispensationalism? If so, I'm not impressed.

If you fail to rightly divide the word of truth, you're the one who aught to be ashamed, not me. It was Jesus who cut off Israel, not me. It was Jesus who commissioned the gospel of the uncircumcision to Paul, not me. Dispensationalists had nothing to do with Peter, James and John agreeing to minister to the circumcision (Israel) with their gospel of circumcision rather than going to the whole world. Dispensationalists simply acknowledge this biblical fact and it is they who pay attention to who the epistles written by Peter, James and John were written to and apply them accordingly.

So if you want to ignore the context of entire books of the bible and important facts of history as recorded in the bible so as to prevent serving up Christ in pieces on a platter, then know that it will be that self same Jesus to Whom you will give an account on judgment day as to why you ignored His word in favor of your doctrine.

In the mean time, I suggest that you avoid passive agressive attempts to belittle my doctrine and stick with making some attempt to support your own because I can guarantee you that I know what I believe and why and can defend what I believe with both the bible and sound reason and flippant remarks will only serve to convince me that you cannot do the same.

My remarks were concerning eternal life not being saved.

So those who are saved do not have eternal life? Those who are saved still die if they didn't sufficiently understand Jesus' ascension? Is that really what you believe?

What, if not death, is one saved from?

I gave you the scripture.

You gave scripture to answer a question I had not asked.

God's record of the eternal Christ reveals the requirement...see 1Jn 5:5-11, know I have not said or at least intended to say who's work it was concerning how the knowledge of it is received or even that one must say the word ascension. Albeit His ascension is rarely discussed in regard to preaching. His ascension was required in order for the Holy Spirit to descend and is more than a gift of power, it is the door way to eternal life.

But not the door way to salvation? That just does not make any sense whatsoever.

Can you find me a single verse, just one sinlge verse, where the gift of eternal life is tied to even a mention of Jesus' ascension, never mind any requirement to understand it?

Jesus told the rich young ruler that if he wanted eternal life to obey the law (don't tell Jerry!). (Matt. 19)
Jesus also said that "anyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake" will inheret eternal life. (Matt. 19)
Jesus said that anyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:15)
Jesus said that "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life." (John 6:54)
No mention of even His death and resurrection, (which He told His disciples not to tell anyone about by the way), nevermind his ascension.

I know, I know, the revelation was progressive. But the bible mentions the words "eternal life" 32 times without ever tying it to Jesus' ascension or giving any indication that salvation and eternal life are two seperate things. In fact, quite the contrary! I'll end with a quote of a passage that seems to clearly indicate thet salvation and eternal life go together, and note once more the complete lack of any mention of Jesus' ascension...

Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.​

Clete

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus told the rich young ruler that if he wanted eternal life to obey the law (don't tell Jerry!). (Matt. 19)

So are you asserting that some of the Jews who lived under the law attained eternal life by obeying the law?

Paul also says that those who continue in well doing will also inherit eternal life, whether they be Jew or Gentile:

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile" (Ro.2:5-10).​

To continue in well doing is in regard to people's own righteousness and here is what Paul says about all believers, whether they be Jew or Gentile:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:4).​

The saved Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

You continue to prove that you still do not know that if "works" are required for salvation then that salvation cannot be described as being on the principle of grace:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:4-5).​

Until you learn the fact that grace and works are mutually exclusive then you will remain ignorant concerning the meaning of the gospel of the grace of God, the gospel which saves. To make it worse, you are misleading others about the truth of grace, that salvation is apart from works!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I would not argue that at all.

The question I'm proposing to you is if and when and in what order, and what is required by what effectual power to possess eternal life, not a promise or a shadow but actual possession. Not referring to save, saved. or salvation but eternal everlasting life. You seem to say that if you believe by your own faith that Jesus is the Son of God as in the Messiah of a earthly kingdom promised then you possess eternal life. I say no you don't possess eternal life at that point because God all in all has more to offer. It is not an physical earthly kingdom but a Spiritual body kingdom that man's flesh and blood (physical)can not enter.

Paul distinguishes betwenn the "inward man" and the "outward man" (2 Cor.4:16). When a person believes he is "born of God" and becomes a child of God and therefore partakes of the divine nature (2 Pet.1:4) so even though the outward man will perish the inward man will never perish:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

When a Christian dies physically today the inward man goes to be with the Lord (2 Cor.5:8) and he will be with the Lord forever.

 

[DAN P]

Saved does not mean eternal life.

Saved, save, salvation, within biblical context can mean many things, I would best define their meaning as being delivered.

Eternal life would mean everlasting life.

To receive eternal life required a continuation of belief as God gave record of His Son.

Hi and there are many verse that say we are saved , like Eph 2:8 For by Grace you are HAVING BEEN SAVED !!

#1 HAVING is a Greek PARTICIPLE always ending in ING !!

#2 The Greek word SAVED / SOZO is in the Greek PERFECT TENSE , which means that when you are saved , the Present Tense means you are CONTINUOUSLY being saved / sozo !!

#3 Eph 1:4 we were CHOSE BEFORE / PRO the world began !!

dan p

 

[Clete]

So are you asserting that some of the Jews who lived under the law attained eternal life by obeying the law?

Actually, I just quoted Jesus Christ who, when asked a question, answered it.

And I do not believe that works are required for salvation.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And I do not believe that works are required for salvation.

Do you believe that those who lived under the law were saved by faith alone?