Welcome back. I laughed when I thought this and I hope you do.... I missed you....
ECT Works of Law and Works of Grace, Is That Biblical?
- Thread starter iamaberean
- Start date
Welcome back. I laughed when I thought this and I hope you do.... I missed you....
Since you took my post on, which I welcome, you have to start first, in my post was this..."If you can't distinguish the difference then you have limited understanding and since you hold yourself above most I wanted you to address the meanings of these words that are different" and now I will add..at least explain why there is not.
...and the stipulation was believes, which by definition in the plural requires a continuation for it to be possessed or Christ could have said, the one who believed because belief has to be past tense before possession in its truest form because Christ is speaking to us in a singular form when he says one... So, one who believes requires continuation.
You still did not specifically address the meaning of these words...."otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth"..Heb.9.15-17. What do they mean?
The analogy being drawn in that passage is of an inheritance based on a will, as in a "last will and testament". Someone's will doens't take effect until they die.
What's so hard to understand about that?
Incidentally, do you have any idea who that passage was written to?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If it took continuing in faith then the Lord would not have told the Jews who lived under the law that they possessed eternal life when they believed:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
The word "believe" in these verses is in the "present" tense and is therefore "durative".
According to the Greek experts the Greek present tense can be in regard to a continuous action beginning in the past and continuing into the present time:
"The durative (linear or progressive) in the present stem: the action is represented as durative (in progress) and either as timeless or as taking place in present time (including, of course, duration on one side or the other of the present moment" (Blass & DeBrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, p. 166.)
"The present tense may be used to describe an action which, begun in the past, continues in the present. The emphasis is on the present time" (Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 519).
"A Present Tense form is called durative when the context conveys an action that began in the past and continues into the present" (Young, Intermediate Greek, p.111-112).
The Lord was not telling anyone that they must continue to hear Him speaking in the distant future in order to be saved. Instead, those who were believing Him as He spoke His words were at that moment passed from death unto life and will not come into judgment:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
They mean exactly what they say. Without the Cross no one could be saved from eternal destruction. However, since the Father knew that the Lord Jesus' death on the Cross would redeem the sins of the believers who lived before the Cross (Heb.9:15) He remitted those previous sins through His "forbearance":
"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God" (Ro.3:25).
In other words, God tolerated the sins of believers before the Cross and even remitted their sins knowing that at the Cross the Lord Jesus's blood would redeem the sins of all the believers who lived before the Cross. Therefore, since their sins were taken away before the Cross the Lord Jesus told believers that they already possessed eternal life.
However, you seem to think that God is powerless to do these things even though the Scriptures states that with God all things are possible.
genuineoriginal
New member
Are we mortal or immortal at this moment?
1 Corinthians 15:52-54 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. |
Is the eternal life we have at this moment more than a promise?
1 John 2:25 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. |
Do we see the fulfillment of the promise at the coming of Christ?
1 Corinthians 15:22-23 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. |
Is there a list of who will be given eternal life at the coming of Christ?
Luke 10:20 20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. |
Can your name be removed from that list?
Psalm 69:28 28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. |
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What Paul calls the "öutward man" 2 Cor.4:16 will indeed perish but the "inward man" who believes already posesses eternal life. The Lord Jesus made that known when He said the following to the Jews who lived under the law:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
Here is what the Lord Jesus said about those to whom He gave eternal life:
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).
Besides, the Scriptures reveal that eternal life is a gift and the LORD will not take back a gift which He has given:
"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).
The word "irrevocable" means "not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final."
You should rejoice and praise the LORD knowing because you already possess eternal life and you will always have eternal life which is the Son (1 Jn.5:11).
genuineoriginal
New member
You seem to have forgotten that there is a condition that must be met.
1 John 2:24 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. |
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That is a first class conditional sentence:
First Class Condition - Is considered the 'Simple Condition' and assumes that the premise (protasis) is true for the sake of argument. The protasis is formed with the helping word ei ('if') with the main verb in the indicative mood, in any tense; with any mood and tense in the apodosis.
Besides that, anyone who truly believes in his heart will always believe the truth by which we are saved:
"The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever" (2 Jn.1-2).
Of course you just IGNORED the words of the Lord Jesus when He said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish! Why don't you believe what we read here?:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).
And do you really believe that the Lord will take back the gift of eternal life from those to whom He gave that gift despite the fact that the Scriptures reveal that He will do no such thing?:
"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).
The word "irrevocable" means "not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final."
Let me remind you that it only those who "believe God" who are justified in His sight (Ro.4:3).
genuineoriginal
New member
Your statement is not true, since some fall from grace.
Galatians 5:4 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. |
Your statement is not true, since some people's faith has been made shipwreck.
1 Timothy 1:19 19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: |
Your statement is not true, since some draw back and do not receive the promise.
Hebrews 10:36-38 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. |
genuineoriginal
New member
You seem to have skipped the following verses because you don't want to hear what they say.
Romans 11:20-22 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. |
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The only people who can possibly fall from grace are those who are justified by the law. And since no one is justified by the law then none fall from grace:
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Jn.3:20).
Of course you will not believe what is said there because you refuse to believe what is written here:
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).
Besides, the Scriptures reveal that eternal life is a gift (Ro.6:23) and the LORD will not take back a gift which He has given:
"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).
The word "irrevocable" means "not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final."
All you are doing is trying your very best to try to prove that what is said in the following verse is not true:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).
I continue to answer your verses but you never even attempt to answer mine.
Proof text battles are such a gigantic waste of time that they're almost comical to watch.
I've just quickly read through the last several post and I just have to chuckle when I realize that both parties are wrong but for different reasons. One, of course, if far more wrong than the other but neither have any hope of winning the debate! One is so blind that he uses several proof texts that argue against his position and the other not only does the same thing but is so completely miopic and biblically ignorant that he is entirely incapable of taking advantage of his apponent's error. So on the one hand you have someone who is just flatly wrong and on the other you have someone who has the right answer but hasn't any idea why it's the right answer and is using an argument that is just as wrong as the arguments for the other side!
It's just astounding! But, to one degree or another, such is the nature of every proof-texting battle I have ever seen! When you build your doctrine on individual sentences plucked willy-nilly from the bible, you can believe nearly anything you want to believe and you have no ground from which to launch any arguments against someone who has built the opposite doctrine by the same means.
You guys might as well just boil your arguments down to "I'm right and you're wrong because the bible says so!"
Just post that one sentence in response to anything else the other one says. It'll be just as effective and no less right (or wrong) than what either of you are doing now.
Clete
I've just quickly read through the last several post and I just have to chuckle when I realize that both parties are wrong but for different reasons. One, of course, if far more wrong than the other but neither have any hope of winning the debate! One is so blind that he uses several proof texts that argue against his position and the other not only does the same thing but is so completely miopic and biblically ignorant that he is entirely incapable of taking advantage of his apponent's error. So on the one hand you have someone who is just flatly wrong and on the other you have someone who has the right answer but hasn't any idea why it's the right answer and is using an argument that is just as wrong as the arguments for the other side!
It's just astounding! But, to one degree or another, such is the nature of every proof-texting battle I have ever seen! When you build your doctrine on individual sentences plucked willy-nilly from the bible, you can believe nearly anything you want to believe and you have no ground from which to launch any arguments against someone who has built the opposite doctrine by the same means.
You guys might as well just boil your arguments down to "I'm right and you're wrong because the bible says so!"
Just post that one sentence in response to anything else the other one says. It'll be just as effective and no less right (or wrong) than what either of you are doing now.
Clete
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So tell us how you define a "proof text" and why what is said in that text doesn't mean exactly what it says.
For example, in the past you have called the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law a proof text so please tell us your interpretation of the true meaning of His words:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
Are you actually capable of actually dealing with this "proof text"?
Or are we supposed to just ignore what the Lord and Savior said in that verse because Clete calls it a "proof text"?
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genuineoriginal
New member
Some people reading this thread may have lost track of what is being debated at this point of the thread.
The current debate is whether eternal life begins after the resurrection or whether eternal life begins as soon as a person believes.
This difference of theology is mentioned in the wikipedia article on eternal life.
It appears that others have reached the conclusion that it is only John that says that eternal life begins at belief, but that the rest of the authors are consistent in saying that eternal life begins at the resurrection.
The current debate is whether eternal life begins after the resurrection or whether eternal life begins as soon as a person believes.
This difference of theology is mentioned in the wikipedia article on eternal life.
| Eternal life (Christianity) Eternal life traditionally refers to continued life after death, as outlined in Christian eschatology. The Apostles' Creed testifies: "I believe... the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting." In this view, eternal life commences after the second coming of Jesus and the resurrection of the dead, although in the New Testament's Johannine literature there are references to eternal life commencing in the earthly life of the believer, possibly indicating an inaugurated eschatology. In the Synoptic Gospels and the Pauline Letters, eternal life is generally regarded as a future experience, but the Gospel of John differs from them in its emphasis on eternal life as a "present possession". Raymond E. Brown points out that in the synoptic gospels eternal life is something received at the final judgment, or a future age (Mark 10:30, Matthew 18:8-9) but the Gospel of John positions eternal life as a present possibility, as in John 5:24. Thus, unlike the synoptics, in the Gospel of John eternal life is not only futuristic, but also pertains to the present. In John, those who accept Christ can possess life "here and now" as well as in eternity, for they have "passed from death to life", as in John 5:24: "He who hears my word, and believes him that sent me, has eternal life, and comes not into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." |
It appears that others have reached the conclusion that it is only John that says that eternal life begins at belief, but that the rest of the authors are consistent in saying that eternal life begins at the resurrection.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Sir Robert Anderson clears up the conflict when he wrote the following:
"The Gospels are not, as infidels suppose, imperfect and often conflicting records of the life and ministry of 'Jesus,' but separate portraits, as it were, of the Lord Jesus Christ with reference to His various relationships and offices. This appears very strikingly when we compare the First Gospel with the Fourth. For the Fourth is the revelation of the Son of God, who came not to judge, but to save the world (John xii. 47); whereas the First records His advent and ministry as Israel’s Messiah ; and we scan it in vain for words of the kind we value in the Fourth - words which we. as Gentiles, can take to ourselves without reserve" (Sir Robert Anderson, Misunderstood Texts of the Bible).
The following words of the Lord Jesus are spoken in His role as God and are addressed to the Jews who lived under the law:
"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).
"Has," as in the "present" tense, not the future tense.
genuineoriginal
New member
Looks like he merely muddied the waters with that statement.
Your name being written in the book of life is proof that you will be part of the Resurrection of the Righteous who will live forever in the world to come.
Because your name is written in the book of life, you can truthfully say you have eternal life, even though you are still mortal and will not live forever until after the Resurrection.
If your name gets blotted out from the book of life, you will not live forever in the world to come, you will be destroyed forever in the lake of fire.
Once Saved Always Saved is a doctrine that leads to destruction that came about from ignorant and unstable people distorting the words of Paul.
2 Peter 3:15-16 NIV 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. |
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why don't you give us your interpretation of the meaning of the following words?:
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).
Also, eternal life is described as being a "gift" (Ro.6:29) and the LORD will not take back a gift once He gives it:
"for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).
The word "irrevocable" means "not able to be changed, reversed, or recovered; final."
According to you the LORD will give the gift of eternal life to believers and then take back that gift later. We also know that eternal life is in the Son:
"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).
The Greek word translated "eternal" means "without end, never to cease, everlasting" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon).
If a believer's life in the Son could end then that would mean that it was never "eternal" to begin with. But John speaks of that life as being eternal.
The passage which you quoted from Peter's second epistle does not say a thing about anyone losing their salvation. The question I want you to answer is this: "Why are you trying so hard to contradict the following words of the Lord Jesus Christ?":
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).
I have you on ignore, though very brief.