With Men This is Impossible

[Jerry Shugart]

Romans 5:13 ASV
13 for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Here is the correct translation:

"...for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13; DBY).​

There is no definite article preceding the Greek word translated "law."

If the correct translation is "the law" then we must believe that no one prior to the law of Moses had their sins imputed to them. However, we know that is not true:

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7).​

 

[popsthebuilder]

Let us look at what the Lord Jesus said about the works of the Law when He answered the following question:

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (Mt.19:16-19).​

In those verses the Lord Jesus told the man one way that he could obtain eternal life, and that way is by keeping the moral law. Then let us look at what the two said to one another:

"All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions" (Mt.19:20-22).​

As the Lord said in verse 19 if we want to inherit eternal life by keeping the commandments then we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. And that would include giving what we have to the poor. Upon hearing that the young man went away. Then the Lord said:

"Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God" (Mt.19:18-19).​

His disciples then asked him the following question:

"Who then can be saved?" (V.25).​

To this question the Lord answered, saying:

"With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible" (v.26).​

The Lord was teaching them that if a person attempts to be saved by keeping the moral law then he will find it impossible to do. That is why Paul wrote this:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20).​

However, the LORD who is rich in mercy, reveals another way whereby a person can obtain eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

There is only one way that a person can obtain eternal life and that is by faith and faith alone. The Scriptures will be searched in vain for any teaching which says that we can only obtain eternal life by both faith and keeping the moral law.

Effectual faith causes us to be moral agents.

Does that mean we won't sin? No does it mean we neglect the self sacrifice and teachings and example of the Christ, in favor of our own works which are caused by effectual faith in the Christ? Not at all. To believe is to have faith, to have faith is to know, to know is to have potential, to not do in the face of knowledge/ potential is chaos, wasting energy, spinning wheels, and neglecting what it is to have purpose and meaning. Are we all undercover nihilists, or were we created and formed for a reason, a purpose, a cause? Does our faith in GOD not effect change? Is any effect not work?

It is the boasting and placing of one over another that is wrong; not the effectual faith that is the result of the hopeful actually hearing the Word.

this is only opinion based on experience and reading of sacred texts. I am not attempting to belittle you or take from your own faith. I look forward to further leveled discussion.

peace

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[Nanja]

What kind of "life" does a person receive when he believes?:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

John 20:31 does not say that life comes as a result of believing. For a person cannot even believe unless they are Born of God, because those in the flesh / carnal cannot please God Rom. 8:8.

Jesus said, "Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." -John 18:37

And Faith / Believing comes by "Hearing" Rom. 10:17. But one cannot hear the Word of God by nature:

1 Cor. 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

So Spiritual Life comes out of New Birth, and Faith / Believing is a fruit and effect thereof Gal. 5:22.

 

[popsthebuilder]

John 20:31 does not say that life comes as a result of believing. For a person cannot even believe unless they are Born of God, because those in the flesh / carnal cannot please God Rom. 8:8.

Jesus said, "Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." -John 18:37

And Faith / Believing comes by "Hearing" Rom. 10:17. But one cannot hear the Word of God by nature:

1 Cor. 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

So Spiritual Life comes out of New Birth, and Faith / Believing is a fruit and effect thereof Gal. 5:22.

Hey Nanja. I hope you are well. I'll get right to the point.

The word natural isn't very accurate in my opinion in reference to 1Cor2:14. I think this may be causing some confusion for some.

Everything else you said seemed pretty spot on to me. Could a person by nature be inclined to do what he knows is right without knowing GOD?

I'm sorry, these things are just things that I am currently curious about and seemed to somewhat go along with the thread. But isn't it safe to say that the reference to natural in that verse is referring to the materialistic, worldly man or heart?

Thanks.

peace

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[Nanja]

Hey Nanja. I hope you are well. I'll get right to the point.

The word natural isn't very accurate in my opinion in reference to 1Cor2:14. I think this may be causing some confusion for some.

Everything else you said seemed pretty spot on to me. Could a person by nature be inclined to do what he knows is right without knowing GOD?

I'm sorry, these things are just things that I am currently curious about and seemed to somewhat go along with the thread. But isn't it safe to say that the reference to natural in that verse is referring to the materialistic, worldly man or heart?

Thanks.

peace

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YW! The natural man is simply a person who has not been given new birth, has not been born again.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Pops

Could a person by nature be inclined to do what he knows is right without knowing GOD?

But until a person is born again nothing he does can please God Rom. 8:8.

 

[popsthebuilder]

YW! The natural man is simply a person who has not been given new birth, has not been born again.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

And I agree with that, but it is a reference to the nature one must be of to be pleasing to GOD, that is to say that nature that clings to the cord of Faith in the Spirit of GOD, and not that one that clings to the worldly/ material/ physical wants of the flesh.



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[daqq]

Here is the correct translation:

"...for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13; DBY).​

There is no definite article preceding the Greek word translated "law."

If the correct translation is "the law" then we must believe that no one prior to the law of Moses had their sins imputed to them. However, we know that is not true:

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 7).​

:chuckle:

Now you are just playing games.
Here is one of the many examples from the Septuagint:

Malachi 4:4 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton English Translation)
4 (3:24) μνησθητε νομου μωυση του δουλου μου καθοτι ενετειλαμην αυτω εν χωρηβ προς παντα τον ισραηλ προσταγματα και δικαιωματα
4 (3:24) Remember the law of my servant Moses, accordingly as I charged him with it in Choreb for all Israel, even the commandments and ordinances.

And of course this passage in the Hebrew Text reads Torah/Torat for "the Law", without an article, and in the same way Torah is likewise found without an article in many other places just as is Nomos in Greek.

Believe what you will . . .

 

[Nanja]

And I agree with that, but it is a reference to the nature one must be of to be pleasing to GOD, that is to say that nature that clings to the cord of Faith in the Spirit of GOD, and not that one that clings to the worldly/ material/ physical wants of the flesh.


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It's only one who has been given a new nature, Born of the Spirit, that can please God Rom. 8:9.

Ezek. 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[popsthebuilder]

It's only one who has been given a new nature, Born of the Spirit, that can please God Rom. 8:9.

Ezek. 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

I don't think I am making my question clear. Let me try again. If it doesn't work again then just disregard.

Prior to being given a new spiritual life, can the man, by nature, do what is right?

Let me see if I can find some related scripture.



Romans: 2. 6. Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8. But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9. Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10. But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11. For there is no respect of persons with God. 12. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13. (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.



Romans: 2. 26. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27. And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Romans: 11. 16. For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18. Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21. For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


So these verses not show that it is possible for man, by God given nature, to submit to the things of GOD, and seek out HIS mercy?

Does this not go along with the premise of "all that will go to heaven are from heaven?

Just thinking a little....making conversation.

peace

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[1Mind1Spirit]

Bible > Philippians > Chapter 2 > Verse 13



◄ Philippians 2:13 ►
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

New Living Translation
For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him.

English Standard Version
for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Berean Study Bible
For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good pleasure.

Berean Literal Bible
For God is the One working in you both to will and to work according to His good pleasure.

New American Standard Bible
for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

King James Bible
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For it is God who is working in you, enabling you both to desire and to work out His good purpose.

International Standard Version
For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him.

NET Bible
for the one bringing forth in you both the desire and the effort--for the sake of his good pleasure--is God.

New Heart English Bible
For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For God is carefully working in you both to desire and to do that thing which you desire.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
It is God who produces in you the desires and actions that please him.

New American Standard 1977
for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Jubilee Bible 2000
For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

King James 2000 Bible
For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

American King James Version
For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

American Standard Version
for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.

Darby Bible Translation
for it is God who works in you both the willing and the working according to [his] good pleasure.

English Revised Version
for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

Webster's Bible Translation
For it is God who worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Weymouth New Testament
For it is God Himself whose power creates within you the desire to do His gracious will and also brings about the accomplishment of the desire.

World English Bible
For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

Young's Literal Translation
for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Now you are just playing games.

No, it is you who is playing games. Are you seriously arguing that sins were not imputed to anyone before "the law" came into being?

John Calvin understood that sin was indeed imputed to men before "the law" came into existence, writing that "before the law iniquities were by God imputed to men is evident from the punishment of Cain, from the deluge by which the whole world was destroyed, from the fate of Sodom, and from the plagues inflicted on Pharaoh and Abimelech on account of Abraham, and also from the plagues brought on the Egyptians" (Calvin, Commentary on Romans 5:13).

You understand nothing about the Pentateuch if you don't understand that!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

John 20:31 does not say that life comes as a result of believing.

Of course it does:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

We also know that no one receives new life until they believe the word of God, as witnessed by the words of the Lord Jesus here:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

According to your discredited teaching a person receives life before they believe!

 

[daqq]

No, it is you who is playing games. Are you seriously arguing that sins were not imputed to anyone before "the law" came into being?

John Calvin understood that sin was indeed imputed to men before "the law" came into existence, writing that "before the law iniquities were by God imputed to men is evident from the punishment of Cain, from the deluge by which the whole world was destroyed, from the fate of Sodom, and from the plagues inflicted on Pharaoh and Abimelech on account of Abraham, and also from the plagues brought on the Egyptians" (Calvin, Commentary on Romans 5:13).

You understand nothing about the Pentateuch if you don't understand that!

It has already been said to you that I spoke in a certain context. Apparently you are not able to hold a conversation with anyone who will not allow you to sidestep what the scripture actually says. As I already stated in my last post; believe what you will.

You did not pay close enough attention to the context of my remarks:

Romans 5:13 ASV
13 for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Perhaps that is why the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah does not lead anyone to Messiah.

:chuckle:

Now you are just playing games.
Here is one of the many examples from the Septuagint:

Malachi 4:4 LXX-Septuagint (Brenton English Translation)
4 (3:24) μνησθητε νομου μωυση του δουλου μου καθοτι ενετειλαμην αυτω εν χωρηβ προς παντα τον ισραηλ προσταγματα και δικαιωματα
4 (3:24) Remember the law of my servant Moses, accordingly as I charged him with it in Choreb for all Israel, even the commandments and ordinances.

And of course this passage in the Hebrew Text reads Torah/Torat for "the Law", without an article, and in the same way Torah is likewise found without an article in many other places just as is Nomos in Greek.

Believe what you will . . .

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It has already been said to you that I spoke in a certain context. Apparently you are not able to hold a conversation with anyone who will not allow you to sidestep what the scripture actually says. As I already stated in my last post; believe what you will.

Why won't you answer my question?

Do you believe that sins were not imputed to men before the law of Moses came into being?

 

[Nanja]

Of course it does:

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:31).​

We also know that no one receives new life until they believe the word of God, as witnessed by the words of the Lord Jesus here:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

According to your discredited teaching a person receives life before they believe!

Believing the Truth is evidence that one was chosen in Christ Eph. 1:4!

2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

2 Tim. 1:8-9
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

 

[Nanja]

dup

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Believing the Truth is evidence that one was chosen in Christ Eph. 1:4!

You just ignored the verses which I quoted which prove that life comes as a result of believing.

Are those verses not in your Bible?

 

[Nanja]

You just ignored the verses which I quoted which prove that life comes as a result of believing.

Are those verses not in your Bible?

Nothing a person does before they are regenerated can please God Rom. 8:8, and that includes their own believing.

 

[daqq]

Why won't you answer my question?

Do you believe that sins were not imputed to men before the law of Moses came into being?

Your question was answered with scripture but you want to sidestep what was quoted. There is no need to sidestep other than for you to subvert the teaching and replace it with your own ideas. What you are essentially saying is that all the renderings at the following link are incorrect for using the article, (except for the Young's literal at the bottom of the page, which naturally would not include an article because it is a literal rendering). Meanwhile only you and the DBY-Darby Bible are supposedly correct, and this you only want to force because you are basing an entire doctrine on whether or not the definite article is present with nomos when it is clearly often simply not used in the writings of Paul. It is pure buffoonery.

So according to you most all of these renderings are incorrect:
http://biblehub.com/romans/5-13.htm

Are you aware that not even kosmos, "world", has an article in this passage?

Romans 5:13
13 αχρι γαρ νομου αμαρτια ην εν κοσμω αμαρτια δε ουκ ελλογειται μη οντος νομου

So according to you it should be read the following way?

αχρι γαρ νομου αμαρτια ην εν κοσμω ~ "For until of-law sin was in to-world" :rotfl:

As I said, there are many passages likewise that could fill an entire post here, containing places where nomos is used without an article from both the Septuagint and the New Testament, and in places we know it concerns Torah by context, (and especially in the writings of Paul). Is there a "law" concerning circumcision, that is outside of Torah, which you can cite from the first century, which Paul might be speaking of in the following passage? Because it appears quite obvious to everyone else that Paul here is speaking of the Torah when he says "Law". Why are there two instances in this passage where nomos does not have an article if your theory is correct?

Romans 2:25 ASV
25 For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision.

Romans 2:25
25 περιτομη μεν γαρ ωφελει εαν νομον πρασσης εαν δε παραβατης νομου ης η περιτομη σου ακροβυστια γεγονεν

Do you actually want to go over every passage and deny, deny, deny?
Therefore I said, believe what you will, O mastermind . . .

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your question was answered with scripture but you want to sidestep what was quoted.

In your opinion were men's sins imputed to them before the law of Moses came into being?

Just a simple "yes" or "no" will do just fine.

In regard to the absence of the definite article before the Greek word translated "law" please consider what Dr. John F. Walvoord, the second President of Dallas Theological Seminary, said about this subject:

"It is obvious that there must be some meaning to the use of the article or its absence, particularly when we observe careful distinction often in the same verse of Scripture. It is the writer's contention that the article when used has some significance, and when it is not used there must be some reason for its absence. He (Paul) therefore concludes in 3:20 that 'by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified.' As the 'law' includes both Jews and Gentiles in this summary, it is clear that it has the general meaning of any moral law" [emphasis added] (Walvoord, "Law in the Epistle to the Romans," Bibliotheca Sacra, Jan., 1937, [Vol. 94, #373], 17,21).​

Why should anyone believe that the following verse is translated correctly since the Gentiles were never under "the law" of Moses (Ro.2:14)?:

"because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20; ASV).​

We can understand that translation is not correct because all flesh was never under "the law."

Here is the correct translation:

"Wherefore by works of law no flesh shall be justified before him; for by law is knowledge of sin" (Ro.3:20; DBY).​

"wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin" (YLT).​

Before you pose as a Greek expert you should first understand what is said in the English versions of the Bible.