Why would God need a hell?

[serpentdove]

[Heaven :straight: and hell :burnlib: 1 Jn 3:10] ...[Y]ou don't know who is going where...

:sherlock: Mt 7:20, 1 Jn 3:10 oly:

 

[Mickiel]

:yawn: You're projecting again (Eph 4:14). :noway:

You tell sinners that there are no consequences for their: indifference, denial or rebellion toward God (Ge 3:4). We tell them the opposite (Eze 18:20). You lie like your father (Jn 8:44). We tell the truth. You don't receive God's word because you are not his (Jn 8:47). You have refused to love the truth ; therefore, God will send you an even stronger delusion (2 Thess 2:11). We are being sanctified by the truth (2 Thess 2:13). You are going to hell. :reals: We are going to heaven. :straight: 1 Jn 3:10

:yawn: Ad infinitum Eph 4:14

I no longer respect you, so I will not be responding to you any more.

Peace on your journey.

 

[Mickiel]

Oh aren't you special. Frankly you don't know who is going where, you only make a self-aggrandizing assumption of such things with so many concordance quotes to bolster your own securities to pamper your ego.

You got that so right.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

Hell is separation from God. We bit the fruit of judgment because we were tempted to make a god out of ourselves. The main problem is the personality KEEPS biting the fruit. One bite and it knows it made a mistake. Maybe it should stop now but the fruit tasted good. Two bites and it thinks it has created separation from God. Three bites and fear enters its awareness. Four bites and it thinks of the possible consequences. Five bites and it becomes preoccupied with the future and the past. Six bites and it thinks it can't be forgiven. Seven bites and avoiding punishment becomes a primary objective. Eight bites and it loses trust in the universe. Nine bites and it is consumed by the fight for survival. Ten bites and the fear of death overtakes its unconscious. Eleven bites and it thinks there's no hope for escape. Twelve bites and it has come up with some imaginary way of blocking this out of its awareness. Thirteen bites and it comes up with the method of repetitive thought patterns to keep all this out of its awareness. Fourteen bites and the repetitive thoughts becomes a deeply ingrained belief system. Fifteen bites and the upholding of its belief system becomes so predominant that it has to bully anyone or anything that threatens to challenge its validity. Sixteen bites and it comes up with the concept of hell to get other people to believe in its same delusions and to ward off others who challenge the system. Seventeen bites and it begins to drag other people down to hell with it to reinforce the system and prove that it is real and it works. Eighteen bites and it goes on a campaign to spread this message to others. Nineteen bites and its off to conquer foreign lands under the message. Twenty bites and we have mass persecutions of people who do not go along with the message. Twenty one bites and...when does it end? The personality sure is delusional. We need to give it the boot. Holler if you agree.

 

[freelight]

Hell bytes........

Hell bytes........

Hell is separation from God. We bit the fruit of judgment because we were tempted to make a god out of ourselves. The main problem is the personality KEEPS biting the fruit. One bite and it knows it made a mistake. Maybe it should stop now but the fruit tasted good. Two bites and it thinks it has created separation from God. Three bites and fear enters its awareness. Four bites and it thinks of the possible consequences. Five bites and it becomes preoccupied with the future and the past. Six bites and it thinks it can't be forgiven. Seven bites and avoiding punishment becomes a primary objective. Eight bites and it loses trust in the universe. Nine bites and it is consumed by the fight for survival. Ten bites and the fear of death overtakes its unconscious. Eleven bites and it thinks there's no hope for escape. Twelve bites and it has come up with some imaginary way of blocking this out of its awareness. Thirteen bites and it comes up with the method of repetitive thought patterns to keep all this out of its awareness. Fourteen bites and the repetitive thoughts becomes a deeply ingrained belief system. Fifteen bites and the upholding of its belief system becomes so predominant that it has to bully anyone or anything that threatens to challenge its validity. Sixteen bites and it comes up with the concept of hell to get other people to believe in its same delusions and to ward off others who challenge the system. Seventeen bites and it begins to drag other people down to hell with it to reinforce the system and prove that it is real and it works. Eighteen bites and it goes on a campaign to spread this message to others. Nineteen bites and its off to conquer foreign lands under the message. Twenty bites and we have mass persecutions of people who do not go along with the message. Twenty one bites and...when does it end? The personality sure is delusional. We need to give it the boot. Holler if you agree.

:surf: - you almost had me at 20 bites lol

Humor asides....I think we have a wonderful play of metaphors here that go deeper than traditional theology allows.

 

[freelight]

Conditions for forgiveness........

Conditions for forgiveness........

show me the verse that says you have to forgive the unrepentant

I just made this response-post to my blog here, but pasting it here to show that more passages speak of forgiving others for one's own sake, on principle, no matter if one repents or not. The Lord's Prayer teaches this principle expressly.

~*~*~

Response:


Greetings all,

I'm doing a short commentary-response to an assumption that we are to forgive others only if they repent. I respond to a poster's reference to conditional forgiveness in Luke 17:3-4 here and another poster's inquiry here which this commentary is a response to, showing that there are more accounts of Jesus teaching where repentance is not mentioned for being a condition whereby forgiveness is granted, but one is to forgive for one's own sake. This is especially mentioned in the Lords Prayer.

Let's see the only passage where forgiveness is dependent on 'repentance' in Luke 17: 3-4

Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

However in other passages we read -

Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

-- Matthew 6: 12-15

21 Then Peter came and said to him, ‘Lord, if another member of the church sins against me, how often should I forgive? As many as seven times?’ 22 Jesus said to him, ‘Not seven times, but, I tell you, seventy-seven times.

-- Matthew 18: 21, 22

25 ‘Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone; so that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.’

-- Mark 11:25

And forgive us our sins,
for we ourselves forgive everyone indebted to us.

-- Luke 11:4

Note: the gospels of Matthew and Mark, plus the Lord's prayer put no conditions on forgiveness except to forgive when/where necessary. Only one passage in Luke speaks of conditional forgiveness.

12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. 14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.

-- Col. 3:12-14

In any or all cases one ultimately forgives, whether an offender repents or not after attempts at reconciliation or payment of debts. In some cases an offender may be deceased, so attempts at communication or reconciliation are impossible, except thru prayer. One must release,...in order to be released. Unforgiveness keeps one in bondage, blocking the flow of God's forgiveness in their own life. More could shared about the dynamic of forgiveness in various situational contexts, but this will suffice to show how important the principle of forgiveness is.

 

[Mickiel]

Why would God need a hell, when he could reveal to the world that the Christian message of hell is false? Well he will, but he is using Christianity to help deceive the world now, so the revelation will not become worldwide until a bit later. But that gospel of the truth, the salvation of all, will be preached in all the world, as a witness only , not a conversion message , and then the end will come.

 

[JosephR]

Why would God need a hell, when he could reveal to the world that the Christian message of hell is false? Well he will, but he is using Christianity to help deceive the world now, so the revelation will not become worldwide until a bit later. But that gospel of the truth, the salvation of all, will be preached in all the world, as a witness only , not a conversion message , and then the end will come.

The time is always now... and is illusion.

G-d needs nothing, no heaven or hell...

we need G-d,He does not need of anything..

show the people love and they will see truth...

hold a door for a woman,,sparks a meal for a homeless man.. then this mind of Christ will be apon on you if its true... and nothing else will matter.. the world will be the world.. but we are not of it,and IT knows it... all will be ok

 

[JosephR]

How does rejecting God equate to hate?

I likewise reject Allah, Zeus...et al. as such I don't consider them enough to hate.

Explain.

the monk that sits under the tree rejects a god? I dont think so..

hate is only a a emotion we feed,like a fire.

to think of ourselfs different then the fire is to think the fish different from the river...we are one... but then again why am i telling a Buddhist this

 

[Prizebeatz1]

I just made this response-post to my blog here, but pasting it here to show that more passages speak of forgiving others for one's own sake, on principle, no matter if one repents or not. The Lord's Prayer teaches this principle expressly.

~*~*~

Response:


Greetings all,

I'm doing a short commentary-response to an assumption that we are to forgive others only if they repent. I respond to a poster's reference to conditional forgiveness in Luke 17:3-4 here and another poster's inquiry here which this commentary is a response to, showing that there are more accounts of Jesus teaching where repentance is not mentioned for being a condition whereby forgiveness is granted, but one is to forgive for one's own sake. This is especially mentioned in the Lords Prayer.

Let's see the only passage where forgiveness is dependent on 'repentance' in Luke 17: 3-4



However in other passages we read -









Note: the gospels of Matthew and Mark, plus the Lord's prayer put no conditions on forgiveness except to forgive when/where necessary. Only one passage in Luke speaks of conditional forgiveness.



In any or all cases one ultimately forgives, whether an offender repents or not after attempts at reconciliation or payment of debts. In some cases an offender may be deceased, so attempts at communication or reconciliation are impossible, except thru prayer. One must release,...in order to be released. Unforgiveness keeps one in bondage, blocking the flow of God's forgiveness in their own life. More could shared about the dynamic of forgiveness in various situational contexts, but this will suffice to show how important the principle of forgiveness is.

Good one. Let us also consider the difference between true forgiveness and false forgiveness. True forgiveness is unconditional. False forgiveness often masquerades as the real thing but it's not.

 

[JosephR]

Hell is separation from God. We bit the fruit of judgment because we were tempted to make a god out of ourselves. The main problem is the personality KEEPS biting the fruit. One bite and it knows it made a mistake. Maybe it should stop now but the fruit tasted good. Two bites and it thinks it has created separation from God. Three bites and fear enters its awareness. Four bites and it thinks of the possible consequences. Five bites and it becomes preoccupied with the future and the past. Six bites and it thinks it can't be forgiven. Seven bites and avoiding punishment becomes a primary objective. Eight bites and it loses trust in the universe. Nine bites and it is consumed by the fight for survival. Ten bites and the fear of death overtakes its unconscious. Eleven bites and it thinks there's no hope for escape. Twelve bites and it has come up with some imaginary way of blocking this out of its awareness. Thirteen bites and it comes up with the method of repetitive thought patterns to keep all this out of its awareness. Fourteen bites and the repetitive thoughts becomes a deeply ingrained belief system. Fifteen bites and the upholding of its belief system becomes so predominant that it has to bully anyone or anything that threatens to challenge its validity. Sixteen bites and it comes up with the concept of hell to get other people to believe in its same delusions and to ward off others who challenge the system. Seventeen bites and it begins to drag other people down to hell with it to reinforce the system and prove that it is real and it works. Eighteen bites and it goes on a campaign to spread this message to others. Nineteen bites and its off to conquer foreign lands under the message. Twenty bites and we have mass persecutions of people who do not go along with the message. Twenty one bites and...when does it end? The personality sure is delusional. We need to give it the boot. Holler if you agree.

where in the world did you get this story,analogy from?

 

[Mickiel]

where in the world did you get this story,analogy from?

His analogy is similar to James 1:14-15, " But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death."

When we are tempted the thought of sin goes up into the consciousness, and when we just keep thinking about it, then we are " Drawn away and enticed"; now the thought is strong and more powerful and the thought is now lust and we " Take a bite of the fruit", the lust has conceived, or it has given birth to sin, but the sin is not " Finished" if we keep taking a bite out of that fruit.

So his analogy is similar to scripture, in my view. And its a stunning analogy; jarring the truth and making my conscious thought on it move to meditation.

 

[JosephR]

His analogy is similar to James 1:14-15, " But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death."

When we are tempted the thought of sin goes up into the consciousness, and when we just keep thinking about it, then we are " Drawn away and enticed"; now the thought is strong and more powerful and the thought is now lust and we " Take a bite of the fruit", the lust has conceived, or it has given birth to sin, but the sin is not " Finished" if we keep taking a bite out of that fruit.

So his analogy is similar to scripture, in my view. And its a stunning analogy; jarring the truth and making my conscious thought on it move to meditation.

this illusion or disillusion of scripture is dangerous and preached from the pulpit weekly. and should be stopped.

 

[JosephR]

His analogy is similar to James 1:14-15, " But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death."

When we are tempted the thought of sin goes up into the consciousness, and when we just keep thinking about it, then we are " Drawn away and enticed"; now the thought is strong and more powerful and the thought is now lust and we " Take a bite of the fruit", the lust has conceived, or it has given birth to sin, but the sin is not " Finished" if we keep taking a bite out of that fruit.

So his analogy is similar to scripture, in my view. And its a stunning analogy; jarring the truth and making my conscious thought on it move to meditation.

James the Just was well aware of His Brothers words when He said. IT IS FINISHED.

 

[Mickiel]

James the Just was well aware of His Brothers words when He said. IT IS FINISHED.

Well I am sure that there are people here who understand you; I mean I don't, but that does not matter.

Peace on your journey.

 

[serpentdove]

[You tell sinners that there are no consequences for their: indifference, denial or rebellion toward God (Ge 3:4). We tell them the opposite (Eze 18:20). You lie like your father (Jn 8:44). We tell the truth. You don't receive God's word because you are not his (Jn 8:47). You have refused to love the truth ; therefore, God will send you an even stronger delusion (2 Thess 2:11). We are being sanctified by the truth (2 Thess 2:13). You are going to hell. :reals: We are going to heaven. :straight: 1 Jn 3:10] I no longer respect you...

Eph 4:14

 

[Prizebeatz1]

where in the world did you get this story,analogy from?

It's the result of years of reverse engineering the personality. This business of hell is an accumulation of feelings of meaninglessness in our lives. It starts small from when we make the transition to adulthood and builds up slowly so as to avoid alarming us that something is wrong. The personality is very very cunning.

 

[Mickiel]

Why would God need a hell, when he could just have Christians punish unbelievers now with their unique ways of hurting unbelievers.

 

[ok doser]

how do Christians hurt unbelievers?

 

[Mickiel]

how do Christians hurt unbelievers?

Allow me to construct a list;

By telling them they are doomed

By telling them they are going to hell

Both those are mental wounds that last a lifetime.

By teaching them that the bible was not written for them.

By acting like your lives are more righteous than theirs.

By using the bible against them.

By teaching them that God will not tolerate them.

By spitting on their destiny.