beloved57
Well-known member
Ok sure. Now answer the question !
Why We Are Justified by Faith Alone
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Ok sure. Now answer the question !
True, indeed!
And Jesus Himself said those who shall endure unto the end the same shall be saved. Matt 24:14. IF any of the elect shall not endure unto the end, he shall not be saved because Christ said: Repent or perish. Luke 13:3, 5. And there are among the elect who shall be thrown into the lake of fire. Matt 8:11, 12.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
At Romans 5:10 Paul is addressing those who are already saved. Of course they have been reconciled to God.
But if all men have been reconciled to God why are Christians given the following mission to those who are not yet saved?:
"Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God" (2 Cor.5:20).
Why would Christians be given the mission to go to unbelievers and tell them to be "reconciled to God" if they were already reconciled to God?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You have your quote marks in the wrong place. They should be at the end of verse five and not at the end of verse four. The words "when they heard this" at verse five refers back to what John the Baptist said to the people. So it was the people who heard John the Baptist who were baptized in verse five.
I would like to quote one more verse which proves that believers were given eternal life BEFORE they were baptized with water:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.
In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:
"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."
Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."
So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Since a believer receives eternal life before a drop of water ever touches him then we can know that submitting to the rite of water baptism contributes nothing to anyone's salvation.
At the present time there is but "one" baptism:
" There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Eph.4:4-6).
And this is that "one" baptism:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
It makes no sense to say that "water baptism" is the "one" baptism to the exclusion of the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit.
beloved57
Well-known member
Those Christ tasted death for, were reconciled to God by it Rom 5:10
[FONT="]For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
[/FONT]Being reconciled, the promise is they shall be saved by His Life. So if Christ tasted death for all men without exception, they shall be saved by His Life. Thats universalism which his also a false teaching. So you either must limited the every man in Heb 2:9 to some, or you must adopt universalism. Which is it ? No in between !
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Only some of them and not all.
And of course you did not answer this question of mine:
Why would Christians be given the mission to go to unbelievers and tell them to be "reconciled to God" if they were already reconciled to God?
As long as that question remains unanswered by you then you have no case1
LOL. One pinhead arguing with another one. What a horse race.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, the words which you quoted were written to those already saved.
If unbelievers are reconciled to God why would Christians be given the mission to go to them and tell them to be "reconciled to God" if they were already reconciled to God?
"Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God" (2 Cor.5:20).
beloved57
Well-known member
You are only questioning the truth. Those Christ died for, tasted death for, were reconciled to God by it, while they were enemies Rom 5:10, and being reconciled, what is the promise of God?
Rom 5:10
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
beloved57
Well-known member
js
Of course they were already believers when Paul wrote the letter to them, however, according to the verse Rom 5:10 when were they reconciled to God ? Were they believers or enemies ?
[FONT="]For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.[/FONT]
Of course they were already believers when Paul wrote the letter to them, however, according to the verse Rom 5:10 when were they reconciled to God ? Were they believers or enemies ?
[FONT="]For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.[/FONT]
You have a lot of trouble with the scriptures, don't you?
If it doesn't please your Calvinist God you wrestle with it and worry over it and then just wind it rejecting it.
beloved57
Well-known member
You the one that dont believe scripture !
turbosixx
New member
I didn't place the quotes, I just copied and pasted.
We've covered this already. Thanks for your time.
I believe the whole Bible, even the scriptures that you quote, but I don't see them through your Calvinist glasses.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No, I am asking you a question for the second time and you continue to not even attempt to answer it. Here it is again:
Why would Christians be given the mission to go to unbelievers and tell them to be "reconciled to God" if they were already reconciled to God?
Your whole theory rests on you being able to answer this question in a reasonable manner.
You can run but you cannot hide!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Is the following statement which was spoken by the Lord Jesus the correct way that men were to be baptized after His death and resurrection?:
"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"(Mt.28:19-20).
Or is the correct way?:
"Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that "they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" (Acts 19:405).
I don't remember covering what I said about the Lord Jesus' words here:
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).
In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.
In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:
"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."
Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."
So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Since a believer receives eternal life before a drop of water ever touches him then we can know that submitting to the rite of water baptism contributes nothing to anyone's salvation.
If you have already answered this then please refresh my memory.
Thanks!
turbosixx
New member
I agree they do look different. The way I understand it is the Holy Spirit is the one giving us these words and these words are from God. Therefore, in Jesus’ name or in the name of all three must be the same. If not, the error would be pointed out to us.
I pointed out that these words were spoken before Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection.
I agree, it’s present tense. Let’s look at it this way. When the Israelites came out of Egypt, Paul says they were partaking in Christ.
1 Cor. 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
So, before Jesus’ D,B&R, people who were faithful under whatever rules or dispensation God had at the time were believers. So before his D,B & R, belief was required because he hadn't sacrificed himself yet.
Maybe if you answer this question it will help you to understand it the way I do.
When Jesus spoke these words, had he commanded the apostles to make disciples by baptizing them IN his name?
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turbosixx
New member
I'm curious. If I understand you correctly, to become a Christian all one has to do is come to the mental understanding that Jesus is the son of God and that he died for our sins and God raised him the third day. Nothing else is ever necessary?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Thanks!
But wasn't water baptism being practiced at that time?
And were these words of Paul written after the Lord's death and resurrection?:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).
When someone believes then the gospel of Christ becomes the instrument which results in salvation. And this happens before anyone is baptized with water. Here the Lord Jesus makes it plain that it is the word of God which results in life:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).
Not one word about water baptism.
turbosixx
New member
Yes, there was baptism at that time. John’s baptism was to prepare the way for Jesus but was it baptism “in the name of Jesus”? Are we told the disciples of John that were baptized were saved like we do those after the D,B &R being baptized “in the name of Jesus”?
Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls….47…And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Yes, they are after. I would suggest to you that those who believe the gospel are baptized. Look at what Paul says 5 chapters later:
6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
By saying “all of us who have been baptized”, he is excluding everyone else.
Paul gives a warning to the Corinthians using the example of the Israelites that didn’t make it into the Promised Land. To draw as close a parallel between the Corinthians and the Israelites as he can, look at what Paul says.
1 Cor. 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ......6 Now these things took place as examples for us, .
He says they were baptized into Moses in water (cloud and sea) just as they had been baptized into Christ.
Earlier in the book when he is dealing with division, he lays out the basics of the gospel.
1:13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
If being baptized “in the name of Jesus” isn’t part of the gospel, how did Paul know they were baptized in the name of Jesus? He only baptized a couple of them.
It’s simple, Christ died for us and we are baptized “in the name of Jesus”. Just like he commanded and just like the apostles taught and the people obeyed.
Baptism isn’t going to be in every conversation about salvation. It’s understood that those who believe the gospel will be baptized, believers are baptized and those who are baptized are the ones who believe. Jesus commanded it and the apostles baptized the believers including the apostle Paul.
I would suggest to you that the gospel requires obedience and not just mental understanding. The very first thing is obey Jesus when he said to make disciples by baptizing them in his name. After that I would suggest obedience to the gospel is to live our lives according to his commands. Those who don’t obey the gospel will receive the same judgment as those who do not know God.
2 Thes. 1:6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
I would suggest to you that later translations do a better job with the Greek word in this verse and it agrees with the one I quoted above.
Jn. 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. ESV
I would suggest to you that belief and obedience are the same thing. Here is the bible telling us that disobedience is unbelief.
Heb. 3:18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.
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