Why We Are Justified by Faith Alone

[turbosixx]

Yes, but they were already justified in the eyes of God by their faith:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro.4:5).​

I guess you think that Paul got it wrong again since you believe that it takes faith plus submitting to the rite of baptism in order to be counted for righteousness.

Paul got it right because AFTER they believed the gospel they were baptized just as Jesus instructed on how to make Christians.

19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If belief is "all" that is necessary, then why did Paul baptize them?

Because it was a bapitism of repentance and those who were baptized with water were pledging to change their past way of living.

Paul got it right because AFTER they believed the gospel they were baptized just as Jesus instructed on how to make Christians.

So you admit that the moment when they believed their faith was counted for righteousness?

So according to your ideas even though their faith was counted for righteousness they were not yet saved because they still had to submit to the rite of water baptism.

If that is not what you believe then explain exactly what I said that misrepresents your ideas.

Now back to Paul's answer here:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

According to you no one is saved until they believe and are water baptized. Therefore, according to your ideas, Paul answered wrong.

 

[turbosixx]

Because it was a bapitism of repentance and those who were baptized with water were pledging to change their past way of living.

Only half right. Paul said John’s was a baptism of repentance and that is why he baptized them again “in the name of Jesus”.
Acts 19:4 And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus." 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

The other half is right. That is exactly what baptism is a pledge to God.
1 Pt. 3:21 not by removing dirt from the body, but by an appeal to God for a good conscience

It’s strange but the people who preach against water baptism want you to say the sinner’s prayer and this is the closest thing to it I see to it in the bible, baptism.

So you admit that the moment when they believed their faith was counted for righteousness?

But even though their faith was counted for righteousness they were not yet saved because they still had to submit to the rite of water baptism.

Is that what you believe then explain exactly what I said that misrepresents your ideas.

Now back to Paul's answer here:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

According to you no one is saved until they believe and are water baptized. Therefore, according to your ideas, Paul answered wrong.

Not my ideas but the very words of my Lord and Savior.
16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Only half right. Paul said John’s was a baptism of repentance and that is why he baptized them again “in the name of Jesus”.
Acts 19:4 And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus." 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

This translation has the quote marks in the wrong place. The quote should end after verse five and not after verse four.

Not my ideas but the very words of my Lord and Savior.
16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Here the Lord is not saying that a requirement for salvation is baptism with water, but instead He is describing those who will be saved. This is similiar to the following words of the Lord:

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life" (Mt.19:29).​

Here the Lord says that those who have forsaken their families will receive everlasting life, but surely no one will argue that this is a requirement for salvation. Instead, the Lord is merely describing many who will be saved. Therefore we can understand that at Mark 16:16 the Lord Jesus is merely describing those who will be saved. The words which follow Mark 16:16 demonstrate that the Lord is "describing" those who will be saved, and notice that only "believing" is mentioned:

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" (Mk.16:17-18).​

Why don't we read, "And these signs shall follow them that believe and are baptized with water"?

Now back to Paul's answer here:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

According to you no one is saved until they believe and are water baptized. Therefore, according to your ideas, Paul answered wrong.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

-DELETED-

 

[turbosixx]

Here the Lord is not saying that a requirement for salvation is baptism with water, but instead He is describing those who will be saved. This is similiar to the following words of the Lord:

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life" (Mt.19:29).​

Here the Lord says that those who have forsaken their families will receive everlasting life, but surely no one will argue that this is a requirement for salvation. Instead, the Lord is merely describing many who will be saved. Therefore we can understand that at Mark 16:16 the Lord Jesus is merely describing those who will be saved. The words which follow Mark 16:16 demonstrate that the Lord is "describing" those who will be saved, and notice that only "believing" is mentioned:

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" (Mk.16:17-18).​

That is a lot of spinning to ignore Jesus's instructions on how to make disciples.

Why don't we read, "And these signs shall follow them that believe and are baptized with water"?

Because he said, believed and HAS BEEN baptized. If they weren't baptized they really didn't believe. Just like these people, the believers get baptized "in the name of" Jesus.
Acts 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

Now back to Paul's answer here:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

According to you no one is saved until they believe and are water baptized. Therefore, according to your ideas, Paul answered wrong.

Your claims can't be backed up by other scriptures. According to you Paul shouldn't have his sins BEFORE he is baptized but Ananias tells him to be baptized and wash them away. Not say the sinner's prayer or believe the gospel but be baptized. That's how we are added to Christ to receive the blood.

 

[turbosixx]

Now back to Paul's answer here:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

According to you no one is saved until they believe and are water baptized. Therefore, according to your ideas, Paul answered wrong.

According to you Paul should not have baptized these people. Why did he?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

turbosixx, I said:

Now back to Paul's answer here:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

According to you no one is saved until they believe and are water baptized. Therefore, according to your ideas, Paul answered wrong.​

And by your reply I can only believe that you indeed think that Paul's answer was a big blunder. You said:

According to you Paul shouldn't have his sins BEFORE he is baptized but Ananias tells him to be baptized and wash them away. Not say the sinner's prayer or believe the gospel but be baptized. That's how we are added to Christ to receive the blood.

First of all, when a person believes the gospel he then has his sins forgiven in regard to salvation:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).​

The forgiveness of sins in regard to water baptism was for being in "fellowship" with the Lord.

In the Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society David R. Anderson writes: "We are suggesting that John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter had dual ministries. One was to call the nation of Israel back into fellowship with Yahweh. The covenant relationship had long since been established. The nation of Israel did not need a new relationship with God. But they were sorely lacking in fellowship...John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter were all trying to persuade Israel to repentance and turning that would bring them back to a refreshing fellowship with God...Now as a nation they needed to repent and turn (Acts 3:19) in order to have fellowship with God" [emphasis added] (Anderson, "The National Repentance of Israel," Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society, Autumn 1998, Volume 11:21).

According to you Paul should not have baptized these people. Why did he?

I already told you why he baptized some of them. I never said that he should not have baptized them.

 

[turbosixx]

turbosixx, I said:

Now back to Paul's answer here:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

According to you no one is saved until they believe and are water baptized. Therefore, according to your ideas, Paul answered wrong.​

And by your reply I can only believe that you indeed think that Paul's answer was a big blunder. You said:

Paul’s answer wasn’t wrong. Paul is not going to baptize a non-believer. They have to believe before they can call on Jesus’ name.

13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

First of all, when a person believes the gospel he then has his sins forgiven in regard to salvation:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).​

I would suggest you’re missing the main point, “through his name”.

How does one call on his name? I would suggest by being baptized “in the name of Jesus”. That’s why in Acts 19, Paul couldn’t give the men the Holy Spirit until he had done so.

The forgiveness of sins in regard to water baptism was for being in "fellowship" with the Lord.

In the Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society David R. Anderson writes

If you’re going to teach me about baptism, please only provide scriptures and not writings of men.

I already told you why he baptized some of them. I never said that he should not have baptized them.

Because it was a baptism of repentance?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul’s answer wasn’t wrong.

So you agree with Paul when he said that those who believe are saved?:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

Didn't you indicate earlier that no one is saved until they believe and then are water baptized?

I said:

When a person believes the gospel he then has his sins forgiven in regard to salvation:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).​

To this you said:

I would suggest you’re missing the main point, “through his name”.

How does one call on his name? I would suggest by being baptized “in the name of Jesus”. That’s why in Acts 19, Paul couldn’t give the men the Holy Spirit until he had done so.

Peter only mentioned believing at Acts 10:43 and said nothing about being baptized with water. Evidently you think that Peter was wrong about what he said at Acts 10:43 and here as well:

"And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8-9).​

Because it was a baptism of repentance?

Yes!

 

[turbosixx]

So you agree with Paul when he said that those who believe are saved?:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

Didn't you indicate earlier that no one is saved until they believe and then are water baptized?

I said:

When a person believes the gospel he then has his sins forgiven in regard to salvation:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).​

To this you said:



Peter only mentioned believing at Acts 10:43 and said nothing about being baptized with water. Evidently you think that Peter was wrong about what he said at Acts 10:43 and here as well:

"And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8-9).​

In both cases they were baptized. Since Cornelius received the Holy Spirit prior to baptism, because this was a special situation, Peter ordered that they be baptized "in the name of Jesus".

47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
It appears Peter viewed Jesus' words in Mk. 16:16 and Matt. 28:19 as a requirement. Is it wise to ignore them when the apostles didn't.

Yes!

I think you fail to understand that before Jesus' death, burial and resurrection baptism was for repentance but after his blood then backed baptism "into" his name. That's why Paul baptized these men "in the name of Jesus" because the baptism for repentance was insufficient.

Acts 19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

I think we're going in circles now. I appreciate your time.

If baptism is required, don't you think Satan would attack that?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Justification by Faith Alone is a doctrine of men that nullifies the Word of God. It was concocted in the 16thy century and has no place in Christianity before that, and even today is only believe by a small percentage of heretical Christians.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

 

[beloved57]

pates lie

It is true that man is a depraved sinner, however, God is just and merciful and has created man with the ability to hear and believe the Gospel.

Those in the flesh cant please God ! Rom 8:8

 

[beloved57]

pates denial of the Gospel

It is foolish to believe that God has only chosen some certain ones to be saved

Salvation has only been promised to Israel Isa 45:17

[FONT=&quot]But Israel shall be saved in the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot] with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Israel is limited to only some of mankind ![/FONT]

 

[Catholic Crusader]

pates lie

It is true that man is a depraved sinner, however, God is just and merciful and has created man with the ability to hear and believe the Gospel.

Those in the flesh cant please God ! Rom 8:8

Amazing. Pate's statement is true, not a lie, and the verse you quoted is also true, yet both of you don't have the slightest clue about salvation or authentic Christianity. How fascinating.

Salvation has only been promised to Israel Isa 45:17

That's just stupid. You'd better quote JESUS when it comes to promises of salvation.

 

[beloved57]

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Heb.2:9).​

Every man Christ tasted death for was reconciled to God by His death Rom 5:10 and shall be saved by His Life . So if He tasted death for every man of mankind, every man of mankind #1 has been reconciled to God by His death, and every man of mankind shall be saved by His Life !

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Stop talking in riddles.

 

[beloved57]

Amazing. Pate's statement is true, not a lie, and the verse you quoted is also true, yet both of you don't have the slightest clue about salvation or authentic Christianity. How fascinating.


That's just stupid. You'd better quote JESUS when it comes to promises of salvation.

The word of God is the word of God. Jesus was raised a Saviour unto who according to Acts 13:23

[FONT=&quot]Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:[/FONT]

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The word of God is the word of God.............

Yes it is, and you are perverting it.