ECT Why was the Sabbath made for man.

[Ps82]

God's Truth said:
[Do you not think that the book of Revelation speaks of the two of them being the same?]

No

Revelation 21:22-23 speaks of two lights that will light the temple of the New Jerusalem. This is why there will be no need for a sun or a moon.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the LORD God Almighty AND the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it AND the Lamb is the light there of.

After all my studies, especially in the book of Exodus, I equate references to The Glory of God to be more times than not referring to the body of heaven, which the invisible Spirit created in order to manifest his presence unto men and angels.

God's heavenly glorious form will be present along with the glorified Lamb as the two of them light the city.

Remember how John the Baptist taught that Jesus was THAT LIGHT but men did not recognize him as THAT LIGHT. We all understand that they did not recognize him because the glory of God image had been diminished by the essence of flesh when God came as the Son and not as the Father. Now the Father and the Son are both revealing the Glory of God by their presence.

Jesus asked to receive that same glory back which he had once shared with the Father and I believe the Father honored that prayer. John 17:4-5

 

[Ps82]

God's Truth said:
[Stephen sees Jesus standing on the right hand of the glory of God. The glory of God might be seen as light, the brightest most beautiful light.]

I understand your point and I do know through my studies that it is the Father's image who lives in THAT deadly unapproachable light. However, I have also read a number of instances where people did see the Father without being harmed. These let me know that God could increase or decrease the intensity of the glory of his appearing when he wished.
Check out these few:

• 74 men saw the body of heaven and ate a meal in his presence. Exodus 24:9-12. When you read it you will find that they claimed to have seen God in his body of heaven and were not harmed while doing so. Verse 12 makes it clear who it was they saw -The LORD! They did not see some intense dangerous LIGHT or some wavy Spiritual essence. They saw the presence of the LORD clearly and safely.
• After all Moses spoke with the LORD God face to face as a friend speaks to another. Numbers 12:8; Deut 5:4,Deut. 34:10
• People also saw his presence seated on a heavenly throne in dreams and visions. Ezekiel 1:25-28 In fact it is here that the term the Glory of God is linked to the bodily presence of the LORD seated on a throne.

God seemed to have no problem manipulating his glorious presence at all. Manifesting it in many realms and in more natural believable manners as well. Remember how Moses asked to see God's glory and God agreed. Exodus 3318-19 However this time God's glory was going to be so intense that Moses would not be able to look upon it as it approached but had to be protected by rocks and the LORD's own hand. Moses was only allowed to look upon the back parts as the glory retreated. This let me know that when the glory approached it was turned up HIGH so to speak, but as it went away it was dimmed just enough that Moses could look upon it without being hurt.

I believe Stephen saw God's glory, which I equate with his heavenly image, seated on a throne and next to him was the risen Son. Stephen saw two Lordly presences which belong to the one God.

 

[Ps82]

God's Truth said:

[I believe that the body Jesus had before coming to earth is the same body he has now. I believe that Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father, and the body Jesus has is the Father's body.]

I believe I can totally agree with what you have said here without changing my conclusions about who Jesus and the Father are as individuals. Let me try to explain.

God's Truth said:
[But Jesus tells us that he is the King of kings and the Lord of lords.]

Revelation 17:14 They will make war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and He will be accompanied by His called and chosen and faithful ones."]

Take a look at the name LORD in the OT. Strong's Concorance: Hebrew 3068 Jehovah - the self existent or eternal one.
This definitely describes the eternal Father. The one who preceded the Son and never died.

Now look at the name Lord in the NT. Greek 2962 Kurios - supreme in authority, a controller, Mr. as a respectful title, such as God, Lord, master, sir

There is enough difference here between LORD and Lord to distinguish which one is The LORD and My Lord. Certainly God through the Father was to give all power and authority to the Son. But The Father did not stop being the Father just because the Son appeared in flesh. The two existed simultaneously. One in the heavenly realm and the other on earth. Both being God. God can do things likes this.

Jesus is the Lord over worldly lords but there is another who is original LORD who preceded his Son. It is he who is original LORD of lords and King of kings, the supreme potentate, who dwells in unapproachable light.

The Father and the Son are one. How? They are one in the bodily form they bore ... The body only differed in the level of glory. They are one because the Spirit does not give his Spirit unto them in measures, but all things of God pertain to them. The Father and the Son only do what the Spirit leads them to do and only say what he desires. Their role was to rule over all lords in heaven and on earth. Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God. Phil 2:6. I dare to say the Father as well did not consider it blasphemy to be equal with God. They were two existing simultaneously in heaven and on earth and they were the two emissaries of the one Spiritual invisible God.

God's Truth quoted:
[1 Timothy 6:15 which God will bring about in His own time--He who is blessed and the only Sovereign One, the King of kings and Lord of lords.]


I will share my interpretation of I Timothy 6, First I will summarize the charge Timothy gave to the people before him and then write out verses 15-16 with my comments inside [...] where he reveals a great truth to people.

Timothy shares a lasting commandment with believers from him because their ever after life depended on them making the right choices. Respect those who have power over you and teach the good things. Flee evil because it leads men to destruction and perdition. Follow after righteousness and lay hold of eternal life. Keep this commandment until the Lord Jesus returns so that you are found worthy to be with Jesus.

When Our Lord returns this will happen.

15 Which in his [the risen Lord's] times shall show [you], who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords.
16 [Our Lord Jesus will show you the identity of the precise one] Who [being the King of kings] only has [or possesses] immortality, [the one] dwelling [with]in the light which no man can approach; [It is this dangerous light] whom no man hath seen, nor can see [remember God's Truth how God protected Moses from being exposed to its intense glory]: [It is going to be our risen Lord Jesus who will reveal The ONE who dwells in that Light] [The one] to whom belongs honor and power everlasting. Amen

Out of the two, The LORD Father, and the Lord Jesus, which one possessed immortality from the beginning? The one who has never died? Answer: The Father
Out of the two which one was known to dwell inside of an unapproachable light from the beginning? It was the presence of the Father.
Jesus was seen in flesh. Jesus died on a cross. Yes he arose and was glorified but Timothy says it will be him who in his due time will introduce us to another. That other one will be the Father of heaven and we will not be harmed because we will be eternal saints by then.

 

[Ps82]

Yes, it was The LORD Father who worked on the Sabbath, but the WORD was with him and was God just as the Father LORD was God. They shared the one image the Spirit had formed for his use. And just as Jesus said when you have seen me you have seen the Father so could the Father have said when you have seen me you have seen my pre-incarnate predestine Son, the WORD. They are one ... yet manifested as two in order to accomplish the role the Spirit had in mind for them in saving mankind - each in their own day or time.

The Sabbath was created for their works ... and mere men were not to steal any glory from him/them on that day by doing works of their own. Even the Jewish religious experts understood that if a mere man worked on the Sabbath it was blasphemy. This is why they wanted to kill our Lord Jesus because they thought of him as a mere man who was trying to teach people that he was equal with the Father.

Jesus reprimanded them when he basically told them this: You have never seen the Father's shape nor ever heard his voice. Therefore you have not given me the honor I deserve.
Why would they have known who Jesus was if they had beheld the Father's form? Because Jesus looked like the Father except for the covering of flesh. They also felt they were favored by God because they possessed the scriptural text ... but Jesus told them that it was the text which testified of who he was. They just didn't get it!
John 5:37-41

 

[God's Truth]

God's Truth, I love this topic. I want to remind Hogie and others that I am not trying to veer off the topic of the Sabbath being made for man.
In fact this vein of thought grew out of a discussion I was having with God's Truth that the Sabbath Day was made for the Father/ Son, who being the Word of God was there with the Father as God before the world was.

The reason Jesus seemed to be breaking the Sabbath often was because it was his day of work. Mere humans were told not to work on that day because that day was set aside to glorify our creator not mankind.

Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and he did tell the cripple to take his bed and carry it, which was against the law. Jesus teaches that it is right to do good on the Sabbath and wrong to do evil on the Sabbath.

Luke 6:9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?

Luke 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

Matthew 12:12,13 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days…

Mark 3:4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.


I believe this is Jesus telling us that there is no more being put to death for doing work on the Sabbath.

It was a sanctified day unto the LORD. My conclusion has been that God created an image for his own use so that he could come within his creation. He shared the likeness of that image with Adam ... thus, God's image was a male body because we all accept that the first Adam, who looked like the image of God, looked like what we know as a male.

That male body in the Old Testament was Jesus. Jesus is the one speaking in the Old Testament but was not yet known as Jesus.

Now, I plan to discuss with God's Truth just who was the LORD who began his work on the 7th Day when Elohiym/God the Spirit rested.

God's Truth said:
[Well, consider that God the Father is a Spirit without a body, and Jesus is God the Father with a body. So that is two when you consider if one is a Spirit without a body and the other is the same Spirit with a body.]

PART ONE:
Our first place of disagreement starts right here. I do not believe the Spirit is considered the Father.

Here I will prove with scripture that the Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?

John 4:24 For God is Spirit,

Ephesians 2:22 And in him you too are being built together to becomea dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.


THERE is ONLY ONE SPIRIT, so we see that there isn't a God the Father who is Spirit, then a different Spirit of Jesus, and another Spirit being the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;


John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.



That scripture shows us that when we receive the Holy Spirit, we are receiving the Father and Jesus' Spirit.



Acts 5:3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and withhold some of the proceeds from the land? 4 Did it not belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How could you conceive such a deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God!”


1 John 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,


Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 1:36 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

 

[God's Truth]

From what I've been able to determine it is in the NT where Jesus and others begin using the term heavenly Father.

No way, for God was called the Father in the Old Testament.

Malachi 2:10
Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

Isaiah 64:8 Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.

Deuteronomy 32:6 Is this the way you repay the LORD, you foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?

Isaiah 63:16 But you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us or Israel acknowledge us; you, LORD, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.

God is called the Father of Israel, Isaiah 64:8 ; Jeremiah 3:4 Jeremiah 3:19 ; Malachi 1:6 ; 2:10, and the Father of certain individuals, 2 Samuel, 1 Chronicles 17:13, 22:10, Psalm 89:26.

Sometimes the Father image is present, although the term 'Father' was not used.

Exodus 4:22-23 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son,
and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.'"

Jeremiah 31:20 Is not Ephraim my dear son, the child in whom I delight? Though I often speak against him, I still remember him. Therefore my heart yearns for him; I have great compassion for him," declares the LORD.

Hosea 11:1-4 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

 

[God's Truth]

God's Truth said:
[Do you not think that the book of Revelation speaks of the two of them being the same?]

No

Revelation 21:22-23 speaks of two lights that will light the temple of the New Jerusalem. This is why there will be no need for a sun or a moon.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the LORD God Almighty AND the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it AND the Lamb is the light there of.

After all my studies, especially in the book of Exodus, I equate references to The Glory of God to be more times than not referring to the body of heaven, which the invisible Spirit created in order to manifest his presence unto men and angels.

God's heavenly glorious form will be present along with the glorified Lamb as the two of them light the city.

That scripture does not say the Father and Jesus have two different lights like the sun and the moon.

The scripture show that the one true light will shine and no sun and moon is needed.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

 

[God's Truth]

God's Truth said:
[Stephen sees Jesus standing on the right hand of the glory of God. The glory of God might be seen as light, the brightest most beautiful light.]

I understand your point and I do know through my studies that it is the Father's image who lives in THAT deadly unapproachable light.

The scriptures also say that Jesus lives in the light.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

However, I have also read a number of instances where people did see the Father without being harmed. These let me know that God could increase or decrease the intensity of the glory of his appearing when he wished.
Check out these few:

• 74 men saw the body of heaven and ate a meal in his presence. Exodus 24:9-12. When you read it you will find that they claimed to have seen God in his body of heaven and were not harmed while doing so. Verse 12 makes it clear who it was they saw -The LORD! They did not see some intense dangerous LIGHT or some wavy Spiritual essence. They saw the presence of the LORD clearly and safely.
• After all Moses spoke with the LORD God face to face as a friend speaks to another. Numbers 12:8; Deut 5:4,Deut. 34:10
• People also saw his presence seated on a heavenly throne in dreams and visions. Ezekiel 1:25-28 In fact it is here that the term the Glory of God is linked to the bodily presence of the LORD seated on a throne.

God seemed to have no problem manipulating his glorious presence at all. Manifesting it in many realms and in more natural believable manners as well. Remember how Moses asked to see God's glory and God agreed. Exodus 3318-19 However this time God's glory was going to be so intense that Moses would not be able to look upon it as it approached but had to be protected by rocks and the LORD's own hand. Moses was only allowed to look upon the back parts as the glory retreated. This let me know that when the glory approached it was turned up HIGH so to speak, but as it went away it was dimmed just enough that Moses could look upon it without being hurt.

I believe that is Jesus' body.

I believe Stephen saw God's glory, which I equate with his heavenly image, seated on a throne and next to him was the risen Son. Stephen saw two Lordly presences which belong to the one God.

When Stephen said he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God, he did not say he saw God's hand, he said he saw the glory of God.

 

[God's Truth]

God's Truth said:

[I believe that the body Jesus had before coming to earth is the same body he has now. I believe that Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father, and the body Jesus has is the Father's body.]

I believe I can totally agree with what you have said here without changing my conclusions about who Jesus and the Father are as individuals. Let me try to explain.

God's Truth said:
[But Jesus tells us that he is the King of kings and the Lord of lords.]

Revelation 17:14 They will make war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and He will be accompanied by His called and chosen and faithful ones."]

Take a look at the name LORD in the OT. Strong's Concorance: Hebrew 3068 Jehovah - the self existent or eternal one.
This definitely describes the eternal Father. The one who preceded the Son and never died.

Now look at the name Lord in the NT. Greek 2962 Kurios - supreme in authority, a controller, Mr. as a respectful title, such as God, Lord, master, sir

I think I should say here that I don't hold Mr. Strong's words of much importance, since he has a denomination and very likely was influenced by it.

But back to the scriptures...


God the Father in the Old Testament says he is the first and the last.


Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:


Isaiah 48:12 Listen to me, Jacob,

Israel, whom I have called:

I am he;

I am the first and I am the last.

13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth,

and my right hand spread out the heavens;

when I summon them,

they all stand up together.


Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.





Read scripture Revelation 1:17


¹⁷ And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:



Revelation 17:14 They will make war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and He will be accompanied by His called and chosen and faithful ones."

1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;


Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.



I have proven with scripture that God is called the Father in the Old Testament, and He calls Himself the First and the Last, and the King of kings and Lord of lords; and those are the name Jesus calls himself.

 

[God's Truth]

There is enough difference here between LORD and Lord to distinguish which one is The LORD and My Lord. Certainly God through the Father was to give all power and authority to the Son. But The Father did not stop being the Father just because the Son appeared in flesh. The two existed simultaneously. One in the heavenly realm and the other on earth. Both being God. God can do things likes this.

The Father and Jesus are exactly alike, they are the same.

There aren't two different Spirit, and two different bodies. There is one Spirit and one body.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;


The scripture say God the Father's hands were pierced, as were Jesus' hands.

Psalms 22:16 KJV For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Zechariah 12:9-10 KJV And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Revelation 1:7-8 KJV Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.



No one can snatch the saved out of God the Father's hand.

No one can snatch the saved out of Jesus' hand.


John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”



God the Father created us with his hands. Jesus created us with his hands.


Isaiah 64:8 Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.


Malachi 2:10 Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?



John 1:3 Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.




They have the same hands. In fact, when we see Jesus, we can say we see the Father.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes, it was The LORD Father who worked on the Sabbath, but the WORD was with him and was God just as the Father LORD was God. They shared the one image the Spirit had formed for his use. And just as Jesus said when you have seen me you have seen the Father so could the Father have said when you have seen me you have seen my pre-incarnate predestine Son, the WORD. They are one ... yet manifested as two in order to accomplish the role the Spirit had in mind for them in saving mankind - each in their own day or time.

The Sabbath was created for their works ... and mere men were not to steal any glory from him/them on that day by doing works of their own. Even the Jewish religious experts understood that if a mere man worked on the Sabbath it was blasphemy. This is why they wanted to kill our Lord Jesus because they thought of him as a mere man who was trying to teach people that he was equal with the Father.

Jesus reprimanded them when he basically told them this: You have never seen the Father's shape nor ever heard his voice. Therefore you have not given me the honor I deserve.
Why would they have known who Jesus was if they had beheld the Father's form? Because Jesus looked like the Father except for the covering of flesh. They also felt they were favored by God because they possessed the scriptural text ... but Jesus told them that it was the text which testified of who he was. They just didn't get it!
John 5:37-41

They didn't recognize Jesus as God the Father because they didn't recognize the words Jesus spoke were God's words. They did not really know the scriptures or God.


John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 8:19 "Where is Your Father?" they asked Him. "You do not know Me or My Father," Jesus answered. "If you knew Me, you would know My Father as well."

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered, "You are mistaken because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.

Mark 12:24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Hebrews 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

[Ps82]

God's Truth said:
[Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and he did tell the cripple to take his bed and carry it, which was against the law. Jesus teaches that it is right to do good on the Sabbath and wrong to do evil on the Sabbath.

I believe this is Jesus telling us that there is no more being put to death for doing work on the Sabbath.]

I have no problem agreeing with this. I will just remind you of this: The LORD and the WORD, our Lord, were with each other during the creation and were the One God as described in John 1. I have no problem agreeing that the LORD Father worked on the Sabbath or that My Lord Jesus worked on the Sabbath. Keep in mind that the Father talked to My Lord as though he was already in existence even before My Lord, being the Word, was manifested in flesh. Off hand I can think of two times "My Lord" was mentioned in the OT.
1.) King David wrote of him/them: The LORD said unto My Lord,"Sit though at my right hand, until I make your enemies thy footstool... Though art a priest for ever after the ordr of Melchizedej, Psalm 110:1,4
2.) Moses knew about My Lord and asked this of the Father LORD after He appeared mightily and dangerously to Moses in all His glory: "And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him [Moses] there,and proclaimed the name of the LORD... And he [Moses] said. "If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us." Exodus 34:6,9


I noticed a slight reference change in the comments of Moses. Was he trying to distinguish between The LORD and My Lord or are they the same God? I say they are the same God ... Yet, Moses knew that there was a presence of the one God which was not all consuming while there was another presence that could kill a mortal. I believe that Moses was speaking of the image of God which was less dangerous. This was God's presence he wanted to go with the people. In my studies I have concluded that the more glorious the appearing of the LORD was the more likely it was referring to the Father. The more safe and angelic sort was a vision of the pre-incarnate one referred to as My Lord. Not that they were not one and the same God's presence but that there were multiple ways God could manifest his glory. Ultimately, the Word, was manifested in yet another lesser level of glory called flesh.

God had already told Moses that His angel would go before them. I'm sure you have heard teachers say that there is a difference between a personage called a mere angel and The Angel of God. One merely being a created angel who was not God and the other meaning God's created image that represented of the essence of the one Spiritual God. God had already told Moses this: And the LORD spoke to Moses face to face , as a man speaketh unto his friend .. "My presence shall go with thee and I shall give thee rest. And Moses said, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up from hence. Exodus 33:11,14,15.

After talking with The LORD face to face as a friend Moses then asked to see the Glory of God and God agreed that ALL HIS GOODNESS would pass before him ... but Moses was only allowed to see the back parts of his body, which appeared as the dangerous Glory of the LORD's presence, as it retreated.

Keep in mine that I foremost believe that the Father and Son are the ONE God so speaking of them/him as one or as two is no problem for me. Yet, I do believe since the NT days ... they each have their own bodily form and can sit next to each other. How else would My Lord receive the glory he deserves as a hero to mankind? The Father wants the Son to receive all glory for what he has done. Other wise why would the Father establish him as the door way into the kingdom he has prepared for us? He lets us in and then introduces us to the original glorious presence of God who is eternal.

The Sabbath Day was made for the special MAN ... who was God's own image that represented him among men. Words like he, and us and our were all used to speak of the one LORD because the Spiritual God is a collective noun ... due to the magnitude of his living essence. Yet, this God represented himself with only one image, which he proved he could use repeatedly in many realms of existence. Heaven, dreams and visions, and in flesh.

Must baby sit today. All the time I will have to reply. Enjoying our conversation God's Truth. Have a great day.

 

[Ps82]

God's truth, I came back to TOL thinking I would have time to write and discuss, but my life is really full. This will be my last post for some time. I've enjoyed our conversation.
Take care and God bless.

 

[God's Truth]

God's truth, I came back to TOL thinking I would have time to write and discuss, but my life is really full. This will be my last post for some time. I've enjoyed our conversation.
Take care and God bless.

You said something at the very beginning that actually supports what I believe, but you don't realize it.

I was hoping that you would give up the false beliefs you have about God the Father and Jesus having two different bodies when the scriptures say one body.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;


It is easy, just believe what is written.

There is only one body.

So are you going to stop saying there are two bodies?

There is only one Spirit, so are you going to stop saying there are two?

 

[Hilltrot]

Romans 14:1-13 NLT
[1] Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don't argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. [2] For instance, one person believes it's all right to eat anything. But another believer with a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables. [3] Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don't. And those who don't eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them. [4] Who are you to condemn someone else's servants? Their own master will judge whether they stand or fall. And with the Lord's help, they will stand and receive his approval.

[5] In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable. [6] Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God. [7] For we don't live for ourselves or die for ourselves. [8] If we live, it's to honor the Lord. And if we die, it's to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. [9] Christ died and rose again for this very purpose-to be Lord both of the living and of the dead.

[10] So why do you condemn another believer? Why do you look down on another believer? Remember, we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. [11] For the Scriptures say,

"'As surely as I live,' says the LORD,
'every knee will bend to me,
and every tongue will declare allegiance to God. '"

[12] Yes, each of us will give a personal account to God. [13] So let's stop condemning each other. Decide instead to live in such a way that you will not cause another believer to stumble and fall.

 

[Ps82]

Yes! I enjoy reading your beliefs on this and glad to hear someone else understand what I have tried so hard to convey to others here and be called liar and crazy.

As for the last part that you wrote, my beliefs are that there will be only two images, God the Father in Spirit, and God the Father with a body, which is Jesus Christ. I don't believe Jesus will have a body with the signs of a crucifixion, since I believe that when Jesus went back to heaven he was given his glorified immortal body, the body he had before coming to earth, before the crucifixion; and, when he comes back THEN we will see him in this immortal body which should not look exactly like the body he had on earth because the scriptures say we will see him as he is and what we will be. What say you?

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Since John has seen Jesus when he walked on earth, and after he was raised from the dead, it would seem that he is changed even more so after going back to the Father, and may not have the scars of a person who lived on this earth, and since he got back the the same glory he had before coming to earth, before a crucifixion.

Hi God's Truth. I think I've already written how I believe there will be two appearing before mankind in eternity. I have three reasons:

1.) Jesus's prayer in John 17. I believe Jesus prayed this in the ears of his disciples so that they would understand some things that were to come. For sure, the Son and the Father both already understood how things were going to work.

Verses 4-5 relates to our discussion: I [your begotten Son Emmanuel] have glorified thee [Father God] on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had [or which I had shared] with thee before the world was.

Do you see my point? God the Spirit and God the Word had shared the glorious image created by God before the world was. This presence they shared was God's image appearing as The Father. We all know Jesus said: The Father and I are ONE [as God]. Jesus was letting his disciples know that God the Father was going to grant him that same glorious presence they had once shared after he arose and was eternally glorified as man's Savior.

2.) I Timothy 6:1-16 tells us that our Risen Lord will introduce us to the King of Kings who dwell in unapproachable light. We, in our immortal bodies, will see this super-natural King of Kings in the fullness of his glory. Moses, a mortal human being, could not look upon the full glory of the presence of the LORD Father because it would have killed him. Moses was only allowed to see the back parts as the LORD Father retreated. Yet, praise God ... our glorified Lord will introduce us to the LORD of all Lords. We will see Lord Jesus and LORD the Father together in heavenly places.

3.) I happen to believe that God the Father and the lamb of God, our-Risen-Lord, are both the one Spiritual God Almighty. Yet, Revelation 21, describes a time in the future when things are this way: Verses 22-23 And I saw no [literal] temple therin [within the holy Jerusalem]: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it [the holy city Jerusalem]. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for The Glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

My conclusions are:
1.) The Father and the Son are both there. They spiritually make up the temple or place prepared for us where we will dwell with and worship God as our Lord and Savior.
2.) AND they are both literally there while they light up the kingdom of God/Holy City of Jerusalem by their glory. The Father and the Son are both equally glorious. My conclusion is based upon a prayer Jesus prayed while his disciples listened. It tells us what Jesus expected after his resurrection and ascension. John 17:4-5 I [your WORD and the promised Son] have gorfied thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavst me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had [which I shared] with theee before the world was.

Do you see it? Jesus was asking to have for himself the same glory he had once shared with the Father before the world was.
I assume God the Father granted this request because why would God not want his Son to be known and received glory for what he did to glorify the Father while on earth and for what he did to rescue his followers?

All things were established by the Spiritual God [Gen.1] and they were created by Him [God the LORD Father [Gen. 2} and for Him [God the Son Emmanuel]. The Father and Son represent the works of God the invisible Spirit. To God goes all the glory for what he has done.

Jesus said: John 5:17 My Father worketh hitherto [in the past], and I work [now].
For some reason the one God wanted to be known literally as two Lords. They are the ONE God or the ONE God is them.
Perhaps God the Spirit wanted to be known as three - if you include God the invisible Holy Spirit which Christ left to be in his followers.

 

[Ps82]

God's Truth, BTW, by saying that the Father and Son are spiritually the temple of the New Holy City of Jerusalem I mean this:
In God we dwell and have our being. The place prepared for us to dwell eternally, the Kingdom of our Lord, will exist in the Spiritual God just like we exist him where we are now. Our Lord, however, went to prepare a new and special place for us.

Just like God as the LORD Father created a temporary place for mankind in Gen. 1 and 2 ... our Lord has since then created a place for us saints to dwell eternally.
Our Creator was God but it was God appearing as the LORD of Lords of the Sabbath who personally began manifesting or bringing forth all things which had already been established. It was the LORD who was the man for which the Sabbath was established. What did he look like? A male! How would mankind describe him? He looked like us but really we looked like Him.

Who is The Father LORD of the Sabbath? He was/is God appearing with a singular presence named LORD/YHWH,Jehovah. As God He may have had a singular form to see but this image was shared by the Father and the WORD. They were both there as God creating things from the beginning.

John 1:18 tells us that no man had ever seen God, the begotten Son, until the days of John the Baptist when he declared his arrival. People had seen the Father then people saw the Word but they did not recognize him.

Have you ever wondered why the religious leaders had trouble recognizing the truth of who Jesus was? Jesus told us the answer!

John 5:37-38 The Father himself which hath sent me, hath born witness of me [check for yourselves the scriptures again]: You [religious teachers] have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen His shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he [the Father] hath sent you believe not [what he says.]
IOW the Father had an audible voice and a visible shape to have been seen but these men had not been given the privilege of having heard from nor seen him. If they had had that privilege the would have immediately known who Jesus was. Why He looked like the Father, he spoke the words of the Father, and he did the miracles of the Father.

My favorite miracle which Lord Jesus did was forming eye balls for a man who had none since birth. He applied a portion of divine Godly spittle from his mouth and took dust of the ground and formed the eyeballs!!!

Remind you of what the LORD Father of the Sabbath did in Genesis 2?
Read verses 6-7 to see how mankind/Adam received his first eyeballs.

6 But there went up a mist [a divine portion of water coming from God] from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground ...

Do you see the similarities? Moisture from God Lord Jesus was added to the ground and a mist of water was brought forth by God the LORD Father tp water the ground. Only then were the eye balls for man formed of that mixture.

Jesus, being God, truly did the works of his Father God while here on earth. Even the same works performed on the Sabbath. Jesus and the Father are ONE and were both present in Gen 2 in the form of God's one image named LORD. I suggest that LORD Father could have said: When you have seen me, you have seen my Son. We are one. Just like our Lord Jesus said: When you have seen Me, the Son, you have seen my Father. They are the one God. He is them.

 

[God's Truth]

Hi God's Truth. I think I've already written how I believe there will be two appearing before mankind in eternity. I have three reasons:

1.) Jesus's prayer in John 17. I believe Jesus prayed this in the ears of his disciples so that they would understand some things that were to come. For sure, the Son and the Father both already understood how things were going to work.

Verses 4-5 relates to our discussion: I [your begotten Son Emmanuel] have glorified thee [Father God] on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had [or which I had shared] with thee before the world was.

Do you see my point? God the Spirit and God the Word had shared the glorious image created by God before the world was.

Jesus is the image of the invisible God.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Jesus is the body of God.

Hebrews 11:27 By faith Moses left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw Him who is invisible.

Jesus is God made visible.

This presence they shared was God's image appearing as The Father. We all know Jesus said: The Father and I are ONE [as God]. Jesus was letting his disciples know that God the Father was going to grant him that same glorious presence they had once shared after he arose and was eternally glorified as man's Savior.

God came to earth as a man in a man's body.

Hebrews 2:14 Now since the children have flesh and blood, He too shared in their humanity, so that by His death He might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil,


And then went back to heaven with the immortal body he had before coming to earth.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 John 3:2 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

2.) I Timothy 6:1-16 tells us that our Risen Lord will introduce us to the King of Kings who dwell in unapproachable light. We, in our immortal bodies, will see this super-natural King of Kings in the fullness of his glory.

Jesus is the King of kings and Lord of lords.

Revelation 17:14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Moses, a mortal human being, could not look upon the full glory of the presence of the LORD Father because it would have killed him. Moses was only allowed to see the back parts as the LORD Father retreated. Yet, praise God ... our glorified Lord will introduce us to the LORD of all Lords. We will see Lord Jesus and LORD the Father together in heavenly places.

God the Father's body is Jesus' body.

One body and one Spirit.

Epheisians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;


That one scripture should stop you from ever saying again that there are two bodies.

3.) I happen to believe that God the Father and the lamb of God, our-Risen-Lord, are both the one Spiritual God Almighty. Yet, Revelation 21, describes a time in the future when things are this way: Verses 22-23 And I saw no [literal] temple therin [within the holy Jerusalem]: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it [the holy city Jerusalem]. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for The Glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

My conclusions are:
1.) The Father and the Son are both there. They spiritually make up the temple or place prepared for us where we will dwell with and worship God as our Lord and Savior.
2.) AND they are both literally there while they light up the kingdom of God/Holy City of Jerusalem by their glory. The Father and the Son are both equally glorious. My conclusion is based upon a prayer Jesus prayed while his disciples listened. It tells us what Jesus expected after his resurrection and ascension. John 17:4-5 I [your WORD and the promised Son] have gorfied thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavst me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had [which I shared] with theee before the world was.

Do you see it? Jesus was asking to have for himself the same glory he had once shared with the Father before the world was.
I assume God the Father granted this request because why would God not want his Son to be known and received glory for what he did to glorify the Father while on earth and for what he did to rescue his followers?

There is only one God, and He is the Father.

Jesus is that one God the Father come as a man's spirit and body.

All things were established by the Spiritual God [Gen.1] and they were created by Him [God the LORD Father [Gen. 2} and for Him [God the Son Emmanuel]. The Father and Son represent the works of God the invisible Spirit. To God goes all the glory for what he has done.

There are also scriptures that say Jesus created all things.

The scriptures show us that God the Father and Jesus are the same.

John 1:3 Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:



God the Father's hands and Jesus' hands are one and the same.



Isaiah 64:8 Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Jesus said: John 5:17 My Father worketh hitherto [in the past], and I work [now].
For some reason the one God wanted to be known literally as two Lords. They are the ONE God or the ONE God is them.
Perhaps God the Spirit wanted to be known as three - if you include God the invisible Holy Spirit which Christ left to be in his followers.

The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. God is Spirit, and the scriptures say Jesus is the Spirit.

The three are one and the same.

2 Corinthians 3:18

And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

 

[God's Truth]

God's Truth, BTW, by saying that the Father and Son are spiritually the temple of the New Holy City of Jerusalem I mean this:
In God we dwell and have our being. The place prepared for us to dwell eternally, the Kingdom of our Lord, will exist in the Spiritual God just like we exist him where we are now. Our Lord, however, went to prepare a new and special place for us.

Jesus prepared a place for our spirits to go in heaven. Our spirits did not used to go to heaven when we died, but since Jesus died and went back to heaven, he made it possible for us to go there after the death of our bodies.

John 1:18 tells us that no man had ever seen God, the begotten Son, until the days of John the Baptist when he declared his arrival. People had seen the Father then people saw the Word but they did not recognize him.

Have you ever wondered why the religious leaders had trouble recognizing the truth of who Jesus was? Jesus told us the answer!

John 5:37-38 The Father himself which hath sent me, hath born witness of me [check for yourselves the scriptures again]: You [religious teachers] have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen His shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he [the Father] hath sent you believe not [what he says.]
IOW the Father had an audible voice and a visible shape to have been seen but these men had not been given the privilege of having heard from nor seen him. If they had had that privilege the would have immediately known who Jesus was. Why He looked like the Father, he spoke the words of the Father, and he did the miracles of the Father.

They did not recognize Jesus because they did not have faith in God the Father before Jesus came.

The old covenant did not require faith, for all one had to do were the purification works of the law and then be called a child of God.

When Jesus came, he was coming to make a new covenant based on faith.

When Jesus came, God cut off all the Jews who did not already have faith in Him, God the Father; and then the Father hardened those Jews so that they could not get saved through Jesus while Jesus was on earth, for Jesus came for those who already belonged to God by faith.

God bound all those Jews who did not already have faith to the place of the disobedient Gentiles.

Jesus said that when he is crucified---THEN all could come to him to get saved.

My favorite miracle which Lord Jesus did was forming eye balls for a man who had none since birth. He applied a portion of divine Godly spittle from his mouth and took dust of the ground and formed the eyeballs!!!

Where do scriptures say he was given eyeballs?

The Bible says Jesus put it in the blind man's eyes---not made him eyeballs.


John 9: 6When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,



The spit and the clay is about humans sometimes getting a healing from God, and sometimes we need things from this earth to help in a healing.

 

[clefty]

Jesus prepared a place for our spirits to go in heaven. Our spirits did not used to go to heaven when we died, but since Jesus died and went back to heaven, he made it possible for us to go there after the death of our bodies.​

oh wow...oh my

John 14: 3 ​

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that when your body dies I made it possible you can join me as a spirit, so that where I am, there ye may be also.

Had to make some changes for it to say what you want it to say...you know add/subtract as you did to what actually was there

The old covenant did not require faith, for all one had to do were the purification works of the law and then be called a child of God.

You ever even read either testament? Start with Heb. 11...

The amount of stumbling you cause around here is astounding...