Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus?

[Zeke]

Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus


An answer to Christian missionaries

We do; only that we accept him for what he really was and not for what the NT describes him to have been. The question is, why Christians don't accept the real Jesus of Nazareth. Probably because they prefer to walk by faith and not by sight. (II Cor. 5:7) If by sight is to walk with understanding, it is only obvious that by faith is to leave the understanding with Paul.

Jesus said the same Luke 17:20-21, Jacob didn't see God with his two eyes Genesis 32:30.
Paul had it right concerning the location of the Christ spirit, the tampering with his epistles still doesn't hide the Gnostic theme he wrote about concerning the mystery of Christ within man, which is the Christ he met, not some idol/messiah of flesh and blood.

 

[chair]

What is your interpretation of the meaning of this verse?:

And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness" (Gen.15:6).​

1. "Righteousness" is a translation of the original. The term is given a very specific and peculiar interpretation by Christians. Likewise for "believed".
2. The Hebrew word that you translate as "Believe" actually means "trusted". He trusted God that he would keep his promise. God in turn, held it to Abraham's credit that he trusted god.
3. Please note: Even if I did not have an alternate interpretation, that does not mean I have to accept your (incorrect) interpretation. I can say "Well, your interpretation is incorrect, and no, I don't know what the verse means".
4. Have you ever pondered the fact that Christianity tries to link itself to the Old Testament through a handful of obscure verses and odd translations?

 

[Interplanner]

Jesus said the same Luke 17:20-21, Jacob didn't see God with his two eyes Genesis 32:30.
Paul had it right concerning the location of the Christ spirit, the tampering with his epistles still doesn't hide the Gnostic theme he wrote about concerning the mystery of Christ within man, which is the Christ he met, not some idol/messiah of flesh and blood.

No it has been shown many times that the mystery Paul is talking about is completely unrelated to gnosticism. The main text is Eph 3:5-6: the mystery is that the Gospel would provide access to the promises to Israel, not the Law. The Gospel is embedded in the OT, but now no longer hidden. This is repeated in Col 1 and Rom 16. Nothing to do with gnosticism's secrets at all. It is an issue with Judaism and the role of the Law. Judaism largely made 'torah' one part of its trinity.

 

[Interplanner]

1. "Righteousness" is a translation of the original. The term is given a very specific and peculiar interpretation by Christians. Likewise for "believed".
2. The Hebrew word that you translate as "Believe" actually means "trusted". He trusted God that he would keep his promise. God in turn, held it to Abraham's credit that he trusted god.
3. Please note: Even if I did not have an alternate interpretation, that does not mean I have to accept your (incorrect) interpretation. I can say "Well, your interpretation is incorrect, and no, I don't know what the verse means".
4. Have you ever pondered the fact that Christianity tries to link itself to the Old Testament through a handful of obscure verses and odd translations?

Chair,
I don't think handful quite states the case. As a master's level Greek student, I find 2500 quotes or allusions to the OT by the NT. It is a science in itself. Now, some of them are higher frequency, but then they are placed right beside those which seem offbeat.

The unusual point you should be addressing and will need to settle for yourself is that Christ was the Seed of Abraham. There is no making sense of Galatians 3 until this is asssimilated, which explains why many people of many backgrounds never survive through Galatians 3. It is a chapter which has the Scriptures themselves personified and speaking or announcing or preaching to Abraham and to future audiences and to us. and then there are its conclusion lines at 9, 14, 22, 29. If a person works back from them, the New Covenant that is in Christ will make perfect sense. The word 'fulfillment' will be seen to be a progression on to a meaning centered on Christ, not on the particular theme or image or motif it builds on (temple, sacrifice, offspring, etc). But it's hopeless outside of "in Christ."

 

[Interplanner]

To have righteousness credited is always a way of referring to justifying a person from their sins. It is not about general issues like 'how will Abraham have offspring?'

 

[Zeke]

No it has been shown many times that the mystery Paul is talking about is completely unrelated to gnosticism. The main text is Eph 3:5-6: the mystery is that the Gospel would provide access to the promises to Israel, not the Law. The Gospel is embedded in the OT, but now no longer hidden. This is repeated in Col 1 and Rom 16. Nothing to do with gnosticism's secrets at all. It is an issue with Judaism and the role of the Law. Judaism largely made 'torah' one part of its trinity.

No you're still stuck in the traditional theme of religious dogma that takes Esoteric teaching as literal history concerning a outward savior that doesn't exist, except in this world of spiritual shadows. The allegorical and parabolic nature of the scripture points inwardly to where the kingdom of God is said by Christ to reside in a temple made without hands, seeing that is where one meets their inner sibling, the Divine seed we all wrestle with. Galatians 4:28 shows the birth of that sibling is in man not a physical one, neither Jew or Gentile, Male or Female are in that realm of the mind of Christ.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

No you're still stuck in the traditional theme of religious dogma that takes Esoteric teaching as literal history concerning a outward savior that doesn't exist, except in this world of spiritual shadows. The allegorical and parabolic nature of the scripture points inwardly to where the kingdom of God is said by Christ to reside in a temple made without hands, seeing that is where one meets their inner sibling, the Divine seed we all wrestle with. Galatians 4:28 shows the birth of that sibling is in man not a physical one, neither Jew or Gentile, Male or Female are in that realm of the mind of Christ.

Enjoy your "Twilight Zone" way of thinking. Any moment I expect
Rod Serling to crash through my Laptop screen!

 

[chair]

Chair,
I don't think handful quite states the case. As a master's level Greek student, I find 2500 quotes or allusions to the OT by the NT. It is a science in itself. Now, some of them are higher frequency, but then they are placed right beside those which seem offbeat.

Oh, there are plenty of quotes and allusions, but actual claims that the OT proves the Jesus myth are rather few and nebulous.

The unusual point you should be addressing and will need to settle for yourself is that Christ was the Seed of Abraham. There is no making sense of Galatians 3 until this is assimilated, which explains why many people of many backgrounds never survive through Galatians 3. ..

Why in the world should I, who is not Christian, be concerned with making sense of Galatians 3?

Can you prove from the OT only that Christ was "the Seed of Abraham"- and while you are at it- please explain what that term is supposed to mean?

 

[chair]

To have righteousness credited is always a way of referring to justifying a person from their sins. It is not about general issues like 'how will Abraham have offspring?'

Only to the Christian. The text doesn't say anything at all about sins, nor does it make particular sense in the context.

 

[CherubRam]

Why Jews Don't Accept Jesus


An answer to Christian missionaries

We do; only that we accept him for what he really was and not for what the NT describes him to have been. The question is, why Christians don't accept the real Jesus of Nazareth. Probably because they prefer to walk by faith and not by sight. (II Cor. 5:7) If by sight is to walk with understanding, it is only obvious that by faith is to leave the understanding with Paul.

Deuteronomy 18:15
The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.

Deuteronomy 18:18
I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him.

Acts 3:22
For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.

Acts 7:37
“This is the Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your own people.’

Daniel 7:13
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

 

[chair]

Deuteronomy 18:15
The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.

Deuteronomy 18:18
I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him.

Acts 3:22
For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.

Acts 7:37
“This is the Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your own people.’

Daniel 7:13
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Why are we supposed to think that the prophet is Jesus? Or that it is one particular prophet for that matter? Sneaking in the quote from Acts doesn't turn it into part of the OT, by the way.

 

[aikido7]

The problem wasn't Jesus, the Son of God incarnate on the earth, the problem was the concept of the Messiah in the minds of the Jews in the days of Jesus. The Jews had predicted or envisioned a material kingdom with a type of priest, prophet King taking up David's seat to rule a nation when the reality was the spiritual "kingdom of heaven" established by Jesus, the King being God the Father in the heart of man. It was to be a spiritual brotherhood wherein all mankind would eventually come to the realization that we are ALL brothers and sisters of the Living, Loving God.

That is the gospel Jesus sent out to be preached to the 4 corners of the earth, but sadly it was contaminated by atonement teaching and the older expectations of Judaism.

Excellent analysis and elegantly stated!

 

[CherubRam]

Why are we supposed to think that the prophet is Jesus? Or that it is one particular prophet for that matter? Sneaking in the quote from Acts doesn't turn it into part of the OT, by the way.

Exodus 23:21
Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him.

God's personal name is Yahwah. The short form of His name is Yah.

Christ personal birth name is Yahshua.

Therefore the prophecy is fulfilled by Yah.

 

[Interplanner]

Excellent analysis and elegantly stated!

No, the atonement teaching did not contaminate anything. It became the basis of justification from sins for all. anyone familiar with the apostle's letters can see that it is not creation which is the basis for the unity of believers (it is not unified for unbelievers). If it had been, God would only have had to send a prophet who taught a deep reverence for having been created and the image of God.

Instead, the apostles taught what had been commissioned by Jesus; that his work, death and resurrection was the basis for justification from sins (because in the Christian system of thought there is real sin), and that no matter your background in education, race, class, gender, ethnos, you could enjoy the promises made to Israel's fathers, which were of course a repeat of Gen 3's first redemptive promise.

There are several correct things above on the difference between Judaism's expectations and the Gospel. But you got nowhere dismissing the atonement and justification through Christ. That is, not closer to the NT. It is not "all mankind" in the mid 20th century brotherhood sense. It is all mankind who believes on the work of Christ.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Hebrew word that you translate as "Believe" actually means "trusted". He trusted God that he would keep his promise. God in turn, held it to Abraham's credit that he trusted god.

Can you quote what you think is the best translations from one of your Scriptures?

Thanks!

Here is a translation from the LXX:

"And Abram believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness" (Gen.15:6).​

 

[CherubRam]

Why are we supposed to think that the prophet is Jesus? Or that it is one particular prophet for that matter? Sneaking in the quote from Acts doesn't turn it into part of the OT, by the way.

Yahwah said Yahshua was the messiah. The prophets said who and when the messiah would come. Yahshua said he was the messiah. The disciples said he was the messiah. And he fulfilled all of the prophecies for his FIRST COMING. In his SECOND COMING he will fulfill the rest of the prophecies.

 

[Interplanner]

The odd thing CRam is that when the NT talks about the 2nd coming there is nothing Judaic there. Look at Mt24B (after v29) and it is worldwide, nothing Judaic. Rom 2, 8, I Cor 15, 2 Pet 3, Heb 9, 2 Tim 4, Acts 26. So...what are you talking about?

If it is the usual three of pop eschatology today, forget it. Ezek 38, 39, Zech 14, Ps 89. The NT says nothing about them, yet says a lot about Ps 2, 16, 110 as being in force right now.

The people who tout Zech 14 so much always seem to forget that the city Messiah helps is half decimated and the women raped before God gets there. Great. Just don't tell anyone its God coming to save the city, OK? It's a rather nasty promise not to deal with carnage and sexual violence.

 

[aikido7]

No, the atonement teaching did not contaminate anything. It became the basis of justification from sins for all. anyone familiar with the apostle's letters can see that it is not creation which is the basis for the unity of believers (it is not unified for unbelievers). If it had been, God would only have had to send a prophet who taught a deep reverence for having been created and the image of God.

Instead, the apostles taught what had been commissioned by Jesus; that his work, death and resurrection was the basis for justification from sins (because in the Christian system of thought there is real sin), and that no matter your background in education, race, class, gender, ethnos, you could enjoy the promises made to Israel's fathers, which were of course a repeat of Gen 3's first redemptive promise.

There are several correct things above on the difference between Judaism's expectations and the Gospel. But you got nowhere dismissing the atonement and justification through Christ. That is, not closer to the NT. It is not "all mankind" in the mid 20th century brotherhood sense. It is all mankind who believes on the work of Christ.

The apostles spread the message of Jesus as they saw it. The original disciples were to go in pairs to Galilean villages and nearby hamlets to approach households and share meals and heal the sick.

The message "to the nations" was an extension of the original Kingdom of God preaching to the House of Israel.

After Jesus's death the faith changed so that it was eventually merged with the violence and force of the Roman Empire. It soon became a religion Jesus would have rejected. It turned out to be a faith of Gentiles, who Jesus rejected and called "dogs" during his ministry.

 

[achduke]

Exodus 23:21
Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him.

God's personal name is Yahwah. The short form of His name is Yah.

Christ personal birth name is Yahshua.

Therefore the prophecy is fulfilled by Yah.

How about Psalms 22?
Psalms 22:1 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me, And from the words of My groaning?

Psalms 22:8 "He trusted in the LORD, let Him rescue Him; Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!"

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have surrounded Me; The assembly of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet;

Psalms 22:18 They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots.

Psalms 22:22 I will declare Your name to My brethren; In the midst of the congregation I will praise You.

Why are we supposed to think that the prophet is Jesus? Or that it is one particular prophet for that matter? Sneaking in the quote from Acts doesn't turn it into part of the OT, by the way.

 

[aikido7]

The problem wasn't Jesus, the Son of God incarnate on the earth, the problem was the concept of the Messiah in the minds of the Jews in the days of Jesus. The Jews had predicted or envisioned a material kingdom with a type of priest, prophet King taking up David's seat to rule a nation when the reality was the spiritual "kingdom of heaven" established by Jesus, the King being God the Father in the heart of man. It was to be a spiritual brotherhood wherein all mankind would eventually come to the realization that we are ALL brothers and sisters of the Living, Loving God.

That is the gospel Jesus sent out to be preached to the 4 corners of the earth, but sadly it was contaminated by atonement teaching and the older expectations of Judaism.

There was no problem with the concept of a Messiah. It was a traditional hope of the Jews to look forward to a Messiah.

The only problem was that Jesus was supposed to be the Messiah figure many had looked forward to but he was killed by the Romans as a common criminal--something that was unthinkable for any Messiah figure.

That's why the early followers soon began to preach the message of a resurrected Messiah.