Why is there something rather than nothing?

[freelight]

The nitty gritty......

The nitty gritty......

freelight:

Being non-committal in a 'belief' or 'non-belief', but approaching and playing with the subject as a fun exploration, does not necessarily indicate wavering or 'confusion',...since its an exploratory exercise. It might be that your 'insistence' for definite terms or conclusions might be at issue here (stressing 'logic' over other tenable methods of analysis), when you could lighten up a little.

Analysis requires rational thought. That's the only tenable method here.

Of course, and my observations of the subject and epistemological/metaphysical issues related to it hold, unless they can be stretched, expanded, modified with better insight/knowledge/information. While 'rational thought' is good for a number of subjects, it is limited. One cannot claim that 'rational thought/reason' is the one absolute key to all truth, for this would squelch the stream of 'pure revelation' which occasionally streams from the Spirit itself, transcending both 'reason' and 'logic'. (this was part of the debate with Deists and spiritualists, the former emphasizing reason alone, denying revelation. Both reason and revelation are essential in the realm of total-truth-comprehension).

I see a more composite influx of elements illumining the mind as we study reality, as if that should surprise anyone

Originally Posted by freelight:

I don't know anything, but that there is awareness.

Damian:

We're having a metaphysical debate. Metaphysics is a branch of philosophy.

Very good. I might remind you however, that my statement above refers to what is observable as a matter of fact. I was just emphasizing that if I assume to know 'anything',...what is more original to that is that I certainly KNOW that I AM aware. I know that there is awareness, which is most fundamental to my being, and the existence of the world. All arises in this awareness. This 'knowledge' is more original and fundamental than any other that the mind may engage itself in.

The methodology of philosophy is rational analysis.

Of course, but that's not all. Some schools may emphasize reason/logic over other keys such as intuition/revelation, it depends on what school or tradition of philosophy you follow or adhere to.

If you believe that metaphysics is a waste of time, then I suggest you find another forum to share your "knowledge."

Well,....one could be tempted to respond to this 'statement' in so many ways. First off, I don't think you'll find anywhere in freelight's illustrious career here :crackup:, where he ever believed 'metaphysics' was a waste of time, since hes often identified as one of the more liberal 'metaphysicians' on the board, a pioneering eclectic in his own right.

Secondly, as a fellow spiritualist with gnostic/mystical/esoteric leanings and some similar spiritual studies which we've engaged in over the years, I'd assume a mutual respect between us, in both 'agreements' and 'differences', and learn from each other on those in the spirit of 'creative dialogue', which is what I've been about from the beginning, honing my craft along the way. All is an exploration of consciousness. While being serious in discussions, I see the place for art, creativity and humor. So sometimes you have to lighten up, as too much logic or locking oneself into certain 'definitions' and 'positionalities' can stifle or retard one's learning/progress and make one appear as rigid, short-tempered, terse, or just plain rude.

Its also a ploy of the 'ego' to assume it knows all there is to know about a subject and stubbornly resist correction or learning. As a former student of ACIM, I'd gather you're familiar with the concept

Again,....right here, right now....all I intimately KNOW...is that I AM. There is awareness. An "I" arises out of this awareness and identifies as an 'individual', assuming a body/mind/personality complex. There is only a world existing while the "I" exists to see and know it. If you want to assume awareness as being 'something', so be it. In this awareness....all 'things' appear. In this awareness....there is both 'no-thing' and 'every-thing', essence and forms. I don't know why this IS, but that it IS. Is this good enough? :idunno:



pj

 

[RobertoKarr]

When you stand before God on judgment day, you will be ashamed of the fact that you never acknowledged Him. That will be a shame, but it will be set, if you do not repent before your death.

Not for a second! If I'm ever in front of god I will have a couple of things to tell him. And if that will grant me a place in Hell , I'll gladly take it, I prefer burning for eternity than licking the boots of a heartless dictator for eternity

 

[RobertoKarr]

The modal cosmological argument (contingency version) proves God using a similar concept. The universe either has to be contingent (caused by an external cause) or necessary existing as a result of its own nature. The universe has to have an explanation for its existence. Atheists have to show how and why it is impossible for the universe not to have existed. Good luck.

Then theists have to prove how and why it is impossible for God not to have existed, good luck with that.

Why does the universe has to have and explanation?? Explanations are imaginary constructs of the human brain. Things that exist do not "need" an explanation to exist.

 

[RobertoKarr]

"Why is there something rather than nothing? The sufficient reason...is found in a substance which...is a necessary being bearing the reason for its existence within itself." - Gottfried Liebniz

.. the whole mistake in this argument is considering that "reason" is a necessity of existence. That things "need a reason to exist". However "reason" is one of the results of the functioning human brain, but not the only one; and certainly "reason" is not the cause, but the consequence of human existence.

 

[PureX]

Why does the universe have to have an explanation?? Explanations are imaginary constructs of the human brain. Things that exist do not "need" an explanation to exist.

To deny such a question is to deny your own humanity. The universe produced us; to witness it. To wonder at it. And to inquire about how and why it exists. We are how the universe becomes self-aware. To deny that is to deny the essence of your own being.

What a sad, sad thing to do to yourself!

 

[Ben Masada]

Because, some thing has always existed.

And to exist is contagious. Then the thing that has always existed gave the command to grow and multiply. (Gen. 1:28) And today the universe is crowded with many things.

 

[RobertoKarr]

To deny such a question is to deny your own humanity. The universe produced us; to witness it. To wonder at it. And to inquire about how and why it exists. We are how the universe becomes self-aware. To deny that is to deny the essence of your own being.

What a sad, sad thing to do to yourself!

Again with the reasons for existence: "the Universe produced us", I agree up to that point, but..

"The universe produced us "TO"something something"...NO!

The universe did not have a "plan" for us to become its eyes and ears... .we happened to become that, eventually... through millions of years of wonderful evolution... I don't see how that point of view is sad.. I quite rejoice on it...and in the universe which produced it.

I also rejoice in all the imaginary questions my brain comes up with, the fact that they are unreal does not make them less beautiful, meaningless, "intention-less", "unreasonable" but beautiful, as existence itself

 

[freelight]

Reality and illusion.......

Reality and illusion.......

Not for a second! If I'm ever in front of god I will have a couple of things to tell him. And if that will grant me a place in Hell , I'll gladly take it, I prefer burning for eternity than licking the boots of a heartless dictator for eternity

We would assume that a Deity that is Love itself, would conduct itself by the law or nature of its own 'character', so this 'God' would not be a heartless dictator, but the essence of Love itself (however it exists as 'personified' or not). Imagine that.

We would also add that 'love' by its own nature and will will always allow 'space' and 'time' for one to 'repent' or 're-turn' to reality, since it is love's will for all its offspring to awaken to their true natural state and 'unity' with Spirit. Creator and Creation are One.

Kudos for your 'zestiness', since all our concepts of 'God' ought to be ever re-examined, for truth does not suffer from honest research. I would be happy to drop any wrong or mistaken concept of 'God' as any other erroneous concept, if proven valueless, unreal or imaginary,.....or at least accept that my own views, opinions and concepts of 'God'...are just that. Reality itself, however is what IS. What actually exists, the heart-source, the living being-ness that allows all things to 'be' and 'be-come', that which we witness and experience as 'life' within this great field of movement we call 'creation'. This is what is. This is reality full stop. Here. NOW. its what is timelessly so, and includes all space and time. This is it.

You cannot deny what IS. (This 'Is-ness' is always Be-ing). It is absolute. Your thoughts, concepts, opinions, assumptions arise as mind relating various perceptions about what IS, those thoughts being 'relative' to this or that, but the universal reality at the heart of all, ever remains, as absolute reality. This is what is. This is all. All else is the mind's naming and claiming....and the various ego-engagements that make for its amusements. All these images or appearances....come and go. Reality remains (yet includes the play of illusion).

Such is maya.



pj

 

[freelight]

face to face...............

face to face...............

And to exist is contagious. Then the thing that has always existed gave the command to grow and multiply. (Gen. 1:28) And today the universe is crowded with many things.

To 'exist' is one of those wonderful things, an expression of the creative mind or spirit which wills or naturally out of its own inherent power to create, unfolds itself along the lines of a productive law, to be fruitful and multiply. IT does this thru various beings and personalities who are but individual reflections of Itself, given similar creative powers to 'be' and 'be-come', which makes 'creation' all the more marvelous.

Sure we have the mythology and human 'stories' trying to explain and articulate it all, but we must go deeper, eh?

The thread-title question might be irrelevant or inconsequential. What is, is :idunno:

I know it, I observe it,...there exists an intelligence that recognizes LIFE as being. Its simply so. It just is. What is,....is prior to reason or explanation.



pj

 

[patrick jane]

"Why is there something rather than nothing? The sufficient reason...is found in a substance which...is a necessary being bearing the reason for its existence within itself." - Gottfried Liebniz

maybe the most ridiculous question ever. yet, legitimate. a question that can and will, never be answered in any lifetime on earth. prove me wrong - atrol:

 

[patrick jane]

To 'exist' is one of those wonderful things, an expression of the creative mind or spirit which wills or naturally out of its own inherent power to create, unfolds itself along the lines of a productive law, to be fruitful and multiply. IT does this thru various beings and personalities who are but individual reflections of Itself, given similar creative powers to 'be' and 'be-come', which makes 'creation' all the more marvelous.

Sure we have the mythology and human 'stories' trying to explain and articulate it all, but we must go deeper, eh?

The thread-title question might be irrelevant or inconsequential. What is, is :idunno:

I know it, I observe it,...there exists an intelligence that recognizes LIFE as being. Its simply so. It just is. What is,....is prior to reason or explanation.



pj

although it can be liberating and pleasurable, IMAGINING existence in any way OTHER than God and God's Will, God's Expression of Creation and The WORD Of God, is a circular process. which = nowhere. OR God. Knowing that God IS, we must HEAR what God has to to say. Not energy or light. Not imagination or Total Free Spirit, which IS Prideful, Arrogant and Selfish, at best. imagining or BELIEVING, that YOU or ME, or ANY One person, is so special and such a spirit "being," that they stand alone, or unique. Believing any connection to anything, OTHER than God, who Is Christ Jesus, is pitiful - sorry, not pitiful. Unique ? - atrol:

 

[freelight]

Getting over old god-concepts.......

Getting over old god-concepts.......

although it can be liberating and pleasurable, IMAGINING existence in any way OTHER than God and God's Will, God's Expression of Creation and The WORD Of God, is a circular process. which = nowhere. OR God.

Where the Spirit is, is liberty already. God is Spirit. The movement of creative evolution is apparently 'circular', its 'cyclic'...yes.

Knowing that God IS, we must HEAR what God has to to say. Not energy or light.

Sure,...Spirit speaks, and we discern spiritual things spiritually.

Not imagination or Total Free Spirit, which IS Prideful, Arrogant and Selfish, at best.

Eh,...I wouldn't go that far or assume such. There is no reason to. Remember, where the Spirit of the Lord is, is liberty. Where is the Spirit? Does God's Spirit dwell in you? Is the Spirit of God omnipresent? Is 'God' infinite? Or do we just worship some human finite concept of a 'god', customizing our 'theology' as we go along? And is there an angry wrathful self-aggrandizing 'God' that is going to punish us if we don't follow a 'pre-scribed' outline or particular religious 'regimen'?

imagining or BELIEVING, that YOU or ME, or ANY One person, is so special and such a spirit "being," that they stand alone, or unique.

God is unique, special, one of kind, holy,....sure. So is his creation. That includes us....or better yet....is US. All there is.....is 'God' and the 'creation' of 'God'. Nothing else. God is ONE. Indivisible. A manifold One.

Believing any connection to anything, OTHER than God, who Is Christ Jesus, is pitiful - sorry, not pitiful. Unique ? - atrol:

Well,.....'God' is the only reality that makes any connection or anything possible, so how could one be separate from 'God'?

I think that 'God' being omnipresent, being all in all NOW...is an awesome reality. no pity involved in what is really being. 'God' is the allness of Being NOW.....no time needed for this to be so, but 'God' of course is pervading and present in all time-sequences, past, present or future,...because 'God' is INFINITE. Is this not so?

Perty awesome eh?



pj

 

[Ben Masada]

To 'exist' is one of those wonderful things, an expression of the creative mind or spirit which wills or naturally out of its own inherent power to create, unfolds itself along the lines of a productive law, to be fruitful and multiply. IT does this thru various beings and personalities who are but individual reflections of Itself, given similar creative powers to 'be' and 'be-come', which makes 'creation' all the more marvelous.

Sure we have the mythology and human 'stories' trying to explain and articulate it all, but we must go deeper, eh?

The thread-title question might be irrelevant or inconsequential. What is, is :idunno:

I know it, I observe it,...there exists an intelligence that recognizes LIFE as being. Its simply so. It just is. What is,....is prior to reason or explanation.

pj

And that's all part of reality. I totally agree with your positive approach to life.

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

"Why is there something rather than nothing? The sufficient reason...is found in a substance which...is a necessary being bearing the reason for its existence within itself." - Gottfried Liebniz

I suppose another way to look at it would be to say "Is nothingness possible?", If nothingness is impossible then that is why there is something. There is something because nothing is impossible. If nothingness is possible, then why is there something? It is puzzling indeed.

The multiverse has been proposed, it may go to explain this. If there is an infinite number of parallel universe exhibiting every array of possibility, then indeed there might be whole universes of nothingness, but there would be no sentient observer to remark on the fact.

I'm not sure I buy into the multiverse, but it is worthy of consideration I think.


Just some food for thought.

 

[RobertoKarr]

We would assume that a Deity that is Love itself, would conduct itself by the law or nature of its own 'character', so this 'God' would not be a heartless dictator, but the essence of Love itself (however it exists as 'personified' or not). Imagine that.

pj

To assume the existence of something does not automatically renders that something into reality. Even more, what we call reality is itself a construction of the mind, and it is in itself an assumption. Which will only lead us to the complete uncertainty of the existence of everything, INCLUDING the Deity that supposedly created itself as pure love.

Which takes me to this thought: A being which is itself the essence of love has an inherent incapability of hating, hurting or creating anything evil, and it is therefore NOT all powerful. Being pure love and being all powerful are mutually exclusive. We need to choose: is God pure love? or He is all powerful . Is God love only? or He is all, THE WHOLE , everything that can and cannot exist (including evil).

We would also add that 'love' by its own nature and will will always allow 'space' and 'time' for one to 'repent' or 're-turn' to reality, since it is love's will for all its offspring to awaken to their true natural state and 'unity' with Spirit. Creator and Creation are One.
pj

Repent from what? Repent from disobeying? Repent from using a tool for evil, which was designed by the same Deity who punishes its usage?

Kudos for your 'zestiness'

pj

I have no idea what that phrase means, I hope it's not bad

since all our concepts of 'God' ought to be ever re-examined, for truth does not suffer from honest research. I would be happy to drop any wrong or mistaken concept of 'God' as any other erroneous concept, if proven valueless, unreal or imaginary,.....or at least accept that my own views, opinions and concepts of 'God'...are just that.
pj

Agree

Reality itself, however is what IS. What actually exists, the heart-source, the living being-ness that allows all things to 'be' and 'be-come', that which we witness and experience as 'life' within this great field of movement we call 'creation'. This is what is. This is reality full stop. Here. NOW. its what is timelessly so, and includes all space and time. This is it.

You cannot deny what IS. (This 'Is-ness' is always Be-ing). It is absolute. Your thoughts, concepts, opinions, assumptions arise as mind relating various perceptions about what IS, those thoughts being 'relative' to this or that, but the universal reality at the heart of all, ever remains, as absolute reality. This is what is. This is all. All else is the mind's naming and claiming....and the various ego-engagements that make for its amusements. All these images or appearances....come and go. Reality remains (yet includes the play of illusion).
pj

Yes I completely agree, as Lamarck said: the only true thing is the fact, all the rest are mere opinions.

 

[oatmeal]

I'm asking a philosophical question and I expect a philosophical response. Why don't you actually attempt to think for your self rather than simply citing biblical verses.

Why don't you think for yourself and cite God's words instead of being deceived by men's philosophies and vain imaginations?

Why hold the created creatures ignorant opinions higher than the Creator's words?

God created the heavens and the earth, you and I nor anyone else had any input.

The fact you are even present is certainly not your doing, the ground you stand on is not your doing, the heavens and the earth are not your doing

Think

Appreciate what God has done that you are even alive

 

[PureX]

I suppose another way to look at it would be to say "Is nothingness possible?", If nothingness is impossible then that is why there is something. There is something because nothing is impossible. If nothingness is possible, then why is there something? It is puzzling indeed.

The multiverse has been proposed, it may go to explain this. If there is an infinite number of parallel universe exhibiting every array of possibility, then indeed there might be whole universes of nothingness, but there would be no sentient observer to remark on the fact.

I'm not sure I buy into the multiverse, but it is worthy of consideration I think.


Just some food for thought.

Good post.

I don't think the "multi-verse" theory matters much. It's really just a conceptual extension of what we already call the "universe", to something beyond this particular cosmos.

I would be more skeptical of it if the "Big Bang" had not already flown in the face of my skepticism.

 

[False Prophet]

Sounds like duality.

 

[RobertoKarr]

Why don't you think for yourself and cite God's words instead of being deceived by men's philosophies and vain imaginations?

Why hold the created creatures ignorant opinions higher than the Creator's words?

God created the heavens and the earth, you and I nor anyone else had any input.

The fact you are even present is certainly not your doing, the ground you stand on is not your doing, the heavens and the earth are not your doing

Think

Appreciate what God has done that you are even alive

Theological morals in a nutshell: "Praise the all powerful because He is all powerful. He can give you an eternal reward or eternal punishment, and that's why you should praise Him. Forget about the powerless and the weak, and focus on getting the favours of the powerful ".

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

A being which is itself the essence of love has an inherent incapability of hating, hurting or creating anything evil, and it is therefore NOT all powerful.

If I were to argue the counter, I would say that such being wouldn't by necessity be incapable, just unwilling.