nikolai_42
Well-known member
Not those words, but you said "be born of Adam's race". What is that if not flesh?
ECT Why is Jesus called the second Adam or last Adam?
- Thread starter Cross Reference
- Start date
Not those words, but you said "be born of Adam's race". What is that if not flesh?
Cross Reference
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It is the 'origin' flesh, both before and after his transgression I am purposely emphasizing, you have seen fit to minimize with your overly irrelevant verboseness; to detract from the needed understanding of the connection between the humanity of Jesus Christ and Adam. Jesus was the second Adam __ the last Adam. We Christians, need to know that to learn how to live in our new creation or not achieve by remaining in the old one.
Cross Reference
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Quote:
Originally asked by Cross Reference
"Was Jesus His Name before humanity? Could be but, it doesn't say, does it? I rather believe it was Who Moses saw in Gen 33:22 that Who was being reference in your above passage."
Originally answered by nikolai in quotes_42
"More accurately I would say, His eternal origin."
If we arrive at the same understanding, so be it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference
"I don't believe He took on humanity as you suppose except to die for its redemption. What He did do was demonstrate for 3 1/2 years what was the intended relationship God purposed for Adam, i.e., divine intimacy absent sin. Jesus was God’s perfect representation of man Adam forfeited. It took 3 1/2 years for Jesus to make His point and then He died that fallen man could be enabled to follow suit by means of a new birth."
"I am not looking for you to be interpreting what I am writing, because it needs no interpretation, but rather for your understanding of what I am writing by the words I choose to say it. Please read it again __ without insinuating what is not implied at all."
"Why do you feel the need to go in this direction? The OP is not about any of that."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference
"As Jesus was directly conceived by God as the beginning of a new human race of reconciled “sons of God” who were born again by the same Hand that birthed Him."
"It was for the “man” Jesus, given to accomplish all things purposed of God for having sent Him into the world, ___ as a human. You do remember the Christmas story that speaks of His "CONCEPTION" __ which is my only point?
So where did I go wrong when, if His appearing as you believe, is the only thing you wish to emphasize, why not speak of His earlier appearances in the OT?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference
"OMT: Both Adam and Jesus were sons of God who, in complete innocence, came into existence directly by the hand of God but only in the genetic sense at their birth do I believe it is accurate. Both were to be made holy by obedience. That is not arguable for me. One was created, the other, birthed. I have emphasized that many times when discussing the two."
Nikolai, with all sincerity and due respect, may I ask your age?
Thank you.
Originally asked by Cross Reference
"Was Jesus His Name before humanity? Could be but, it doesn't say, does it? I rather believe it was Who Moses saw in Gen 33:22 that Who was being reference in your above passage."
Originally answered by nikolai in quotes_42
"More accurately I would say, His eternal origin."
If we arrive at the same understanding, so be it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference
"I don't believe He took on humanity as you suppose except to die for its redemption. What He did do was demonstrate for 3 1/2 years what was the intended relationship God purposed for Adam, i.e., divine intimacy absent sin. Jesus was God’s perfect representation of man Adam forfeited. It took 3 1/2 years for Jesus to make His point and then He died that fallen man could be enabled to follow suit by means of a new birth."
"I am not looking for you to be interpreting what I am writing, because it needs no interpretation, but rather for your understanding of what I am writing by the words I choose to say it. Please read it again __ without insinuating what is not implied at all."
"Why do you feel the need to go in this direction? The OP is not about any of that."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference
"As Jesus was directly conceived by God as the beginning of a new human race of reconciled “sons of God” who were born again by the same Hand that birthed Him."
"It was for the “man” Jesus, given to accomplish all things purposed of God for having sent Him into the world, ___ as a human. You do remember the Christmas story that speaks of His "CONCEPTION" __ which is my only point?
So where did I go wrong when, if His appearing as you believe, is the only thing you wish to emphasize, why not speak of His earlier appearances in the OT?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross Reference
"OMT: Both Adam and Jesus were sons of God who, in complete innocence, came into existence directly by the hand of God but only in the genetic sense at their birth do I believe it is accurate. Both were to be made holy by obedience. That is not arguable for me. One was created, the other, birthed. I have emphasized that many times when discussing the two."
Nikolai, with all sincerity and due respect, may I ask your age?
Thank you.
jsjohnnt
New member
Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
I don't believe He took on humanity as you suppose except to die for its redemption.
_____________
As ridiculous as anything I have ever read and in willful opposition to I John 4:2. So sad that Cross Eyed will have some influence, even on this forum. While he makes Adam and Christ to be the same type of beings, except for the death (no resurrection?), the fact remains that Jesus Christ was and is the creator of all . . . . . including Adam.
The student reader should consider Colossians 1:15 -23.
Hats off to Nikolia_42. Your pursuit of the truth is appreciated. And to the involved post by TFTn5280, I say, "don't get discouraged. Very good stuff, so much so, that Cross Eyed has had to summarily dismiss your article . . . . clearly he had no answer." Appreciate the discussion, all.
I don't believe He took on humanity as you suppose except to die for its redemption.
_____________
As ridiculous as anything I have ever read and in willful opposition to I John 4:2. So sad that Cross Eyed will have some influence, even on this forum. While he makes Adam and Christ to be the same type of beings, except for the death (no resurrection?), the fact remains that Jesus Christ was and is the creator of all . . . . . including Adam.
The student reader should consider Colossians 1:15 -23.
Hats off to Nikolia_42. Your pursuit of the truth is appreciated. And to the involved post by TFTn5280, I say, "don't get discouraged. Very good stuff, so much so, that Cross Eyed has had to summarily dismiss your article . . . . clearly he had no answer." Appreciate the discussion, all.
Cross Reference
New member
While I certainly appreciate your reading my replies to Nikolai, I wonder if you might point out what your disagreement
TFTn5280
New member
Nevermind, I am pretty sure your readers think it was on topic. T.
Cross Reference
New member
If you’re honest you and yours will know to understand that your brand of theology has limited you to the single issue of salvation. You have been taught to say the sinners prayer, join their white knuckle club and hang on until you die. The leadership who persuaded you really can’t say for sure whether or not you have believed unto salvation. They don’t know what really comes after one dies. What they do guarantee is that while you are with them they will make you happy until you die because God wants you to be happy. They believe the extent of their obligation to God is to make you happy. That’s it.
No further comment.
TFTn5280
New member
Well I am glad you have nothing more to say, because to this point you haven't said one thing worth repeating. I dare to say, CR, that my understanding of the full gamut of Christ's work both in creation and in the atonement far exceeds anything you have ever imagined and are capable of understanding. I follow you around this site only because I see how you ride roughshod over anyone who disagrees with your "private interpretation" of Scripture, while the whole time I pray that your marginal (if not down-right heretical) teachings don't impact the innocents who read you. It's kinda like jsjohn said other day: Get used to me, CR, 'cause from now on, we're buds.
Livelystone
New member
It is all on topic and relative to Adam and Jesus for how each has fulfilled God's Will that was needed in order for God's plan to save His creation and destroy evil, to work.
First created Adam was essentially the same as Jesus, because at first Adam could no more sin than Jesus who could not sin! However, when Adam was made "subject to vanity" that describes Adam being altered so he could no longer perform perfectly as he did when Adam was first created, took place in his deep sleep and the forming of Eve,
Prior to Eve, Adam's mind came from the Spirit of God the same as the mind of Jesus (Christ) came from the Spirit of God in Jesus the same as the mind of Christ CAN come from the Spirit of God in us. (Those who have received the Holy Spirit)
Consequently, with the forming of Eve, Adam's flesh now had a mind, will, emotions, and a mouthpiece of its own. Because Eve came from next to Adam's heart, Adam loved Eve that made Adam's sin not a matter of if but when.
Therefore, God and as planned from before the beginning takes the responsibility for Adam sin that condemned ALL of the human race because He has also provided an antidote for sin that will save ALL of the human race.
So why would God cause man to fall and then provide the way for man to regain what was lost at the fall? Certainly, if Adam had been allowed to keep his flawless created state that he had in the beginning, sin in all of mankind never would have become an issue?
Unfortunately, all of mankind had to be condemned in order for God's plan to work, and the only way to do that was condemn the first man to death that in turn would cause all men to become condemned to death
The law of polarity that is a universal law meant Satan had to show up in the Garden where God tempted Satan with the carrot of dominion over the earth through Satan gaining dominion over all of mankind through getting the father of all of the human race to sin. This resulted in the plan for the fall where Satan through first deceiving Eve knowing Adam would follow after her got Adam to sin. Then, through the law of the seed that was already in effect, Satan was able to place a seed of sin in Adam who would then pass it onto all of mankind condemning all of mankind to death
BTW, it was not the knowledge of good and evil that got Adam condemned to death, but because Adam broke the commandment "thou shalt not". For that matter Adam becoming as "one of us" was because one of the seven fold spirits that make up the "us" of God (Is.11:2 KJV) is the spirit of council because God takes council only from Himself. However when Adam took council from himself instead of continuing to take council from God, Adam had to be sentenced to death, or God would have been the cause of introducing a sinful man into the world who would live forever.
The best is last because when evil (Satan) got man to sin against God, sin was then condemned to death. Therefore, through the resurrection of Jesus that takes man from being condemned to death to living eternally in Him; God will be with His creation forever in a place where evil can never appear again because it has died the death that God was able to trick Satan into falling for here on earth.
To say that God's plan to save all of His creation and at the same time sit back while evil destroys itself was a brilliant plan is an understatement
Cross Reference
New member
<. . . and a very unlearned stupid statement conceived and birthed by unbelievable willful ignorance>
TFTn5280
New member
Except for the small fact that Jesus was/is God and Adam ain't...
Cross Reference
New member
Livelystone
New member
Jesus and Adam are brothers from different mothers and both are called to be a son of God, They are the only two who ever walked on earth without sin within them as a principality with Adam's time without sin being short lived
Adam did exactly as he was intended to do by bringing all of mankind under condemnation providing the way for all to be saved by Jesus
Livelystone
New member
You do not have what it takes to judge anyone let alone me
Your ignorance is why you have faith without works because your faith (what you believe) is dead because of the presence of sin in your doctrines......... as is in all of the Pentecostal denomination
TFTn5280
New member
On second thought, CR, keep posting. Given enough rope, you'll hang yourself. Good day.
Cross Reference
New member
I will __ hope you pay attention.
6days
New member
Cross Reference said:
Adam was created by Jesus. John 1:3
Cross Reference said:
Genesis 3:20-24 All humanity is descendants of Adam and seperated from Holy God (spiritually dead) and will suffer physical death.
Genesis 3:15 This verse is a prophecy that seed of a woman would crush the head of the serpent.
In all history, there is only One who was not the seed of man...Jesus.
Jesus was fully human but did not inherit the sin nature you and I have. Because He was sinless...an unblemished Lamb, He could be a sacrifice to pay the penalty that you and I deserve. He is our Mediator between sinful man and a Holy God.*
Romans 5:12, 19 Therefore, just as by one man sin entered the world, and death through sin so death spread wto all men, because all sinned-
... For as through one mans disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One, the many will be made righteous.*
Amazing grace!!
How can it be.....
That thou my God would die for me?
jsjohnnt
New member
We share in the Adamic sin only because we, like Adam, committed personal sin (Rom 5:12). I do not see why this passage does not bear on the discussion. The fall of mankind in Adam should never be considered without taking into account the truth of Rom 5:12.
Secondly, Adam's proclivity for sin, was obvious BEFORE he ate the fruit. Before he violated the only stated law for which he was accountable (there are 613 of those in the Old Law), he was curious to a fault, he doubted God openly, he challenged God's commands, He stopped believing that in his sin, he would surely die, he violated his headship as husband, he put his trust in the words of the serpent as he rejected the words of God in Christ, God had ceased to be his guide in life turning, instead, to the pleasant sounding advise of the Tempter, and, he joined in a corporate challenge to God with Satan and Eve . . . . . the first "den of iniquity, " all of this just BEFORE dinner.
Christ did none of these things and was truly sinless. He not only was sinless with regard to the Law, he had his sinful nature fully in check. When you realize that Jesus of Nazareth was the Creator of Adam and pre-existed Adam for that reason, the similarities between he and Adam are few . . . . . the only major difference is that Adam was the first to fall, and Christ was the first to succeed.
TFTn5280
New member
Hey, js, good post. Could you give us a synopsis of your thought in regards to Christ being called the second Adam? And your interpretation as to what it means that Adam was called "the son of God." Thanks, T
Livelystone
New member
First off Adam only sinned after he was altered aka "made subject to vanity not willingly" but by the will of God when his flesh was given a voice and a mind of its own that was contrary to how Adam thought and acted after he was first given life from the Spirit of God being breathed into his nostrils.......... had Adam not been changed from when he was first created perfect Adam would have not sinned.
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Adam's sin was all part of the plan and to even consider that God was caught by surprise is not giving an all omnipotent God His do respect. For sure had God wanted sinless robots for sons He would have had them but His plan for His creation was far greater than having sinless robots for sons.
Meanwhile the seven fold spirit that is God (Is.11:2 KJV) that has always existed including during the creation, did appear in its fullness in Jesus some 4000 years after creation, however, the man Jesus was not involved with creation........ only His Spirit and Soul were who are the same Spirit and Soul within God who created all things.
This is how we were in Him before the foundations of the earth were formed because we have been given an "earnest" of this same Spirit of God that is the free gift of salvation but is only a partial amount with the balance of it held in reserve for those who gain the mind of Christ that is the mind of God.
Doug
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