Why I Don't Believe in Calvinism or Predestination

God's Truth

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Although this is a strange direction to come at my beliefs, I believe in our Existence in Sheol prior to the creation of the physical universe. This is the time of my quote, not during our time on earth: It was by our free will decision at this time that some became demonic, rejecting HIM totally and some became elect, accepting HIS deity but then chose to be sinners by rejecting HIS plans for the judgment and it is both types of sinners (and only sinners) who are born / sown into the world as human as per His explanation without metaphor, symbolism or analogy of our coming to earth: Matt 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”

37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

I agree but what is in scripture about our relationship with HIM is about our being sinners and how HE fulfills HIS promise to us of salvation which HE first preached to us in Sheol: Colossians 1:23...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven [which has never happened on earth yet the verb proclaimed is a finished past action], and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

NOT about how our faith in YHWH as our GOD and our faith in HIS promise of salvation to be found in HIS Son brought us under HIS promise and so brought us into salvation BEFORE we sinned in Sheol (before the existence of the physical universe). It is this faith, a faith without works that ultimately saved us from all sin. On earth the fulfillment of our salvation as promised does indeed have works appended to it, causing the confusion because all churches reject that faith prior to human existence can be real.

I don't go by what denominations teach. I only go by what the scriptures say in the Holy Bible. There is nothing in the scriptures that say what you claim. We were not all from Sheol.

One has to make up their mind if they want some religion's truth, some denomination's truth, your own made up truth, or God's Truth.

Jesus can reveal himself to you in a powerful way, if you obey him, and if His written words are carefully followed. He is the Way and gives directions. You cannot get to the Father unless you obey the Way exactly. If you do not obey exactly, you might end up in false religions, false doctrines and saying we are from Sheol and other things that are not about the true God.
 

God's Truth

New member
When Jesus went to prison/hell, he went to those who were born on this earth and then did wrong and then died, and went to prison/hell. Not all are from prison/hell.

As for sowing good seed, good people, and sowing bad seed and evil people...that is about after we are born in this world and how we choose to live. Have we heard of Jesus' gospel and accepted it and obeyed it? Or, have we heard about the way of this world and chose to accept it and obey it?
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
I don't go by what denominations teach. I only go by what the scriptures say in the Holy Bible. There is nothing in the scriptures that say what you claim. We were not all from Sheol.
Maybe you should do a little more reading with a soupcon of critical thinking...Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall RETURN to Sheol ... Kiel - Delitzsch(#16): Yea, back to Hades must the wicked RETURN. Just how can anyone return to where they never were?

Job 1:21 - And Job said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb and naked shall I return thither. Do we really think Job is planning on returning to where he was born from, his mother's womb or to before the womb into annihilation (if he did not exist before the womb) or is this a poetic way of saying he is going back to where he came from, sheol. Where else could he be going?

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. Well, to return, one must have been there before, at least, according to the normal use of the word. Therefore, in this verse, it would be normal to infer that the sheep that had gone astray, were, at one time part of the Shepherd's flock but had strayed away from HIS care. Since I am sure that the Shepherd was not negligent, the straying away from HIS care must involve some rebellion.

Therefore, it is normally obvious that Peter is writing to some apostatized (gone astray) Christians (people of the flock). It is also normally apparent that what he was writing is intended for every new convert in every age since.

Therefore, it seems normal that the Holy Spirit would have us believe that all of the Church has personally apostatized from Christ prior to their conversion in this life. Since we are conceived as sinners, it is easy to see that we apostatized from Christ before our conception and that is why we are sinners at our birth.

I think that Peter bore added witness to this fact in 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ...which ...hath begotten us again unto a lively hope... Just when was the first time you were begotten by GOD? And when did you get unbegotten? Well, unless you are one of those earthly backslidden types, the only time such an un-begetting or rebellion could have taken place is prior to your conception. And since Peter is writing to the whole Church rather than to just the backslidden types, he must be referring to a preconception rebellion and the straying of HIS elect since that time, which straying or rebellion ends only upon conversion to obedience unto holiness to that Shepherd, that is, upon being born in Christ (begotten) again.

One has to make up their mind if they want some religion's truth, some denomination's truth, your own made up truth, or God's Truth.
Done! Now, what do you teach that RETURN means in these verses...esp Psalm 9:17 just for my edification, of course.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
When Jesus went to prison/hell, he went to those who were born on this earth and then did wrong and then died, and went to prison/hell. Not all are from prison/hell.

As for sowing good seed, good people, and sowing bad seed and evil people...that is about after we are born in this world and how we choose to live. Have we heard of Jesus' gospel and accepted it and obeyed it? Or, have we heard about the way of this world and chose to accept it and obey it?

Sure, but in context what does "to sow" mean?
 

God's Truth

New member
Maybe you should do a little more reading with a soupcon of critical thinking...Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall RETURN to Sheol ... Kiel - Delitzsch(#16): Yea, back to Hades must the wicked RETURN. Just how can anyone return to where they never were?
In scriptures that are harder to understand, one should study other translations and decide reasonably.

King James Bible
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

King James 2000 Bible
The wicked shall be turned into sheol, and all the nations that forget God.

Job 1:21 - And Job said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb and naked shall I return thither. Do we really think Job is planning on returning to where he was born from, his mother's womb or to before the womb into annihilation (if he did not exist before the womb) or is this a poetic way of saying he is going back to where he came from, sheol. Where else could he be going?
I take Job as saying he came with nothing not even clothes, and will leave with nothing.

Read this scripture, it confirms it:

1 Timothy 6:7
For we brought nothing into the world, and neither can we carry anything out of it.

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. Well, to return, one must have been there before, at least, according to the normal use of the word. Therefore, in this verse, it would be normal to infer that the sheep that had gone astray, were, at one time part of the Shepherd's flock but had strayed away from HIS care. Since I am sure that the Shepherd was not negligent, the straying away from HIS care must involve some rebellion.
Well, the shepherds were the one at fault in that case.
The lost sheep were actually the sheep that did not rebel.

Ezekiel 34

Prophecy against the Shepherds of Israel

1 Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and say to those shepherds, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Woe, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock? 3 You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fat sheep without feeding the flock. 4 Those who are sickly you have not strengthened, the diseased you have not healed, the broken you have not bound up, the scattered you have not brought back, nor have you sought for the lost; but with force and with severity you have dominated them. 5 They were scattered for lack of a shepherd, and they became food for every beast of the field and were scattered. 6 My flock wandered through all the mountains and on every high hill; My flock was scattered over all the surface of the earth, and there was no one to search or seek for them.”’”

7 Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 8 “As I live,” declares the Lord God, “surely because My flock has become a prey, My flock has even become food for all the beasts of the field for lack of a shepherd, and My shepherds did not search for My flock, but rather the shepherds fed themselves and did not feed My flock; 9 therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 10 ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will demand My sheep from them and make them cease from feeding sheep. So the shepherds will not feed themselves anymore, but I will deliver My flock from their mouth, so that they will not be food for them.”’”
The Restoration of Israel

11 For thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd cares for his herd in the day when he is among his scattered sheep, so I will care for My sheep and will deliver them from all the places to which they were scattered on a cloudy and gloomy day. 13 I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land; and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the inhabited places of the land. 14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and their grazing ground will be on the mountain heights of Israel. There they will lie down on good grazing ground and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I will feed My flock and I will lead them to rest,” declares the Lord God. 16 “I will seek the lost, bring back the scattered, bind up the broken and strengthen the sick; but the fat and the strong I will destroy. I will feed them with judgment.

17 “As for you, My flock, thus says the Lord God, ‘Behold, I will judge between one sheep and another, between the rams and the male goats. 18 Is it too slight a thing for you that you should feed in the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the rest of your pastures? Or that you should drink of the clear waters, that you must foul the rest with your feet? 19 As for My flock, they must eat what you tread down with your feet and drink what you foul with your feet!’”

20 Therefore, thus says the Lord God to them, “Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you push with side and with shoulder, and thrust at all the weak with your horns until you have scattered them abroad, 22 therefore, I will deliver My flock, and they will no longer be a prey; and I will judge between one sheep and another.

23 “Then I will set over them one shepherd, My servant David, and he will feed them; he will feed them himself and be their shepherd. 24 And I, the Lord, will be their God, and My servant David will be prince among them; I the Lord have spoken.

25 “I will make a covenant of peace with them and eliminate harmful beasts from the land so that they may live securely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods. 26 I will make them and the places around My hill a blessing. And I will cause showers to come down in their season; they will be showers of blessing. 27 Also the tree of the field will yield its fruit and the earth will yield its increase, and they will be secure on their land. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bars of their yoke and have delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them. 28 They will no longer be a prey to the nations, and the beasts of the earth will not devour them; but they will live securely, and no one will make them afraid. 29 I will establish for them a renowned planting place, and they will not again be victims of famine in the land, and they will not endure the insults of the nations anymore. 30 Then they will know that I, the Lord their God, am with them, and that they, the house of Israel, are My people,” declares the Lord God. 31 “As for you, My sheep, the sheep of My pasture, you are men, and I am your God,” declares the Lord God.


Continued ...
 

iouae

Well-known member
That you cannot admit your theology limits GOD's eternal love, HIS eternal patience and HIS never ending kindness to 70 years is my problem.

You are right that it is your problem.


Psa 148:4
Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.
Psa 148:5
Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.
Psa 148:6
He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass.
Psa 148:7
Praise the LORD from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps:
Psa 148:8
Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfilling his word:
Psa 148:9
Mountains, and all hills; fruitful trees, and all cedars:
Psa 148:10
Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl:

Psa 148:11
Kings of the earth, and all people; princes, and all judges of the earth:
Psa 148:12
Both young men, and maidens; old men, and children:

Psa 148:13
Let them praise the name of the LORD: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven.

God tells us that everything which has life should thank Him, because it is a great blessing.
It is a demonstration of God's love, and they all live for greater and shorter lengths of time. And animals have no further expectation of life after death, yet they too should be grateful.

But only ttruscott has a problem with man living 70 years. In your head, and there alone, you find fault with God's love. God is not obliged to give all men eternal life. You are inventing the rules for yourself as to God's love.
 

God's Truth

New member
Therefore, it is normally obvious that Peter is writing to some apostatized (gone astray) Christians (people of the flock).

Now when Jesus came, he came for the lost sheep of Israel.
He came for the sheep who repented of their sins. John the baptizer prepared the way for Jesus and the lost sheep had to repent of their sins before the Savior would come for them. See Luke 1:76-80.

The Jews had the covenant with God, the old law, and it did not require faith to obey.
God cut off and hardened the Jews who did not have faith before Jesus came, and the Jews who did have faith, they believed in Jesus.

Those who were cut off when Jesus came, they are the ones who have to be grafted back in.


Ask for any scriptures if you need to see them.


It is also normally apparent that what he was writing is intended for every new convert in every age since.

The Jews who were cut off from the sheep, they were bound over to where the Gentiles were. God bound everyone to the same condemnation; hell bound. The only way any can be saved now would be through Jesus.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.


Therefore, it seems normal that the Holy Spirit would have us believe that all of the Church has personally apostatized from Christ prior to their conversion in this life. Since we are conceived as sinners, it is easy to see that we apostatized from Christ before our conception and that is why we are sinners at our birth.
Well, it happened in the garden of Eden because of Adam. We all inherited the human propensity to sin. Not all sin the same, but all must learn about God and be taught; no one just knows God.


I think that Peter bore added witness to this fact in 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ...which ...hath begotten us again unto a lively hope... Just when was the first time you were begotten by GOD? And when did you get unbegotten? Well, unless you are one of those earthly backslidden types, the only time such an un-begetting or rebellion could have taken place is prior to your conception.
No. You are confusing discussion about the nature of humans and those who came and lived before us with our personally living before we were born on earth.


And since Peter is writing to the whole Church rather than to just the backslidden types, he must be referring to a preconception rebellion and the straying of HIS elect since that time, which straying or rebellion ends only upon conversion to obedience unto holiness to that Shepherd, that is, upon being born in Christ (begotten) again.
See this is what I explained to you before about the Jews, the sheep who were CUT OFF and hardened when Jesus came. They were bound to the place the disobedient Gentiles were. Now though, since Jesus was crucified, even they could be grafted back in.
God will let those cut off people come back. And, Jesus will let all people come to him.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


Done! Now, what do you teach that RETURN means in these verses...esp Psalm 9:17 just for my edification, of course.

I hope you have better understanding now. I really am just trying to help. All I want is God’s Truth and want to help others to know God better. If you would like to discuss more about it I would be glad to do so.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Now when Jesus came, he came for the lost sheep of Israel.
He came for the sheep who repented of their sins. John the baptizer prepared the way for Jesus and the lost sheep had to repent of their sins before the Savior would come for them. See Luke 1:76-80.

The Jews had the covenant with God, the old law, and it did not require faith to obey.
God cut off and hardened the Jews who did not have faith before Jesus came, and the Jews who did have faith, they believed in Jesus.

Those who were cut off when Jesus came, they are the ones who have to be grafted back in.


Ask for any scriptures if you need to see them.




The Jews who were cut off from the sheep, they were bound over to where the Gentiles were. God bound everyone to the same condemnation; hell bound. The only way any can be saved now would be through Jesus.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.



Well, it happened in the garden of Eden because of Adam. We all inherited the human propensity to sin. Not all sin the same, but all must learn about God and be taught; no one just knows God.



No. You are confusing discussion about the nature of humans and those who came and lived before us with our personally living before we were born on earth.



See this is what I explained to you before about the Jews, the sheep who were CUT OFF and hardened when Jesus came. They were bound to the place the disobedient Gentiles were. Now though, since Jesus was crucified, even they could be grafted back in.
God will let those cut off people come back. And, Jesus will let all people come to him.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.




I hope you have better understanding now. I really am just trying to help. All I want is God’s Truth and want to help others to know God better. If you would like to discuss more about it I would be glad to do so.

You sound more like a Calvinist than a Christian. People are cut off because the don't believe. God cuts no one off, they cut themselves off because they don't believe.
 

God's Truth

New member
You sound more like a Calvinist than a Christian. People are cut off because the don't believe. God cuts no one off, they cut themselves off because they don't believe.

Reply to what I said and stop doing what unsaved beloved57 does.

Stop giving your mote false statements to everything anyone says.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
To sow is when one speaks the gospel, it is as throwing seed around; and whoever is interested in what they hear is someone in whom the seed landed and can either grow to eternal life or not.

The parable Matt 13:36 in His EXPLANATION ie, no hyperbole, no metaphor, no analogy, says that the good seed are THE PEOPLE OF THE KINGDOM SOWN INTO THE WORLD BY THE SON OF MAN and it says that the tares are the people of the evil one sown into the world by the devil. ...just like a farmer scatters seeds of grain.It is the parable of the sower that speaks of seed, the parable of the good seed and the weeds has the seeds being people... and they are sown as sinners from the git go, not after they have lived and done evil. Since none are good, the good seed cannot be morally good since they are sinners liable to be pulled up in the judgement against the tares, so good must be a status word denoting their relationship with GOD, ie, as one of HIS elect.
 
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ttruscott

Well-known member
In scriptures that are harder to understand, one should study other translations and decide reasonably.

King James Bible
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

King James 2000 Bible
The wicked shall be turned into sheol, and all the nations that forget God.

You should know better than judge a verse on the use of the English...the KJV tried to morph this phrase to hide the fact they return but no one was fooled... Go to Strongs...
 

God's Truth

New member
You should know better than judge a verse on the use of the English...the KJV tried to morph this phrase to hide the fact they return but no one was fooled... Go to Strongs...

Are you kidding? Mr. Strong is just a man. He is not in the Bible.

God brings His gospel to people in their language.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by ttruscott

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. Well, to return, one must have been there before, at least, according to the normal use of the word. Therefore, in this verse, it would be normal to infer that the sheep that had gone astray, were, at one time part of the Shepherd's flock but had strayed away from HIS care. Since I am sure that the Shepherd was not negligent, the straying away from HIS care must involve some rebellion.

Well, the shepherds were the one at fault in that case.
The lost sheep were actually the sheep that did not rebel.

Ezekiel 34

Prophecy against the Shepherds of Israel

1 Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel.

Sure there were bad human shepherds who were cursed but Peter is NOT talking about them. These sheep in 1 Peter 2:25 whoever they were returned to the Shepherd and so no mistake can be made about who this is, He is named as the Bishop of their souls. Peter is NOT talking about Jewish leaders failing in their duties but Christians as the context of the phrase shows clearly: 23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25 For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

If you can make this Shepherd the Bishop of our soul to be a false shepherd who betrayed the flock just to avoid dealing with the fact that going astray into our sins means we were in His flock then left and that our conversion is a true return to Him, our Saviour, then I am beat.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
...I hope you have better understanding now. I really am just trying to help. All I want is God’s Truth and want to help others to know God better. If you would like to discuss more about it I would be glad to do so.

You haven't read 1 Peter 2 in full context recently, have you. It is no more about Jews being cut off than my left ear. It is about people being astray in sin and being encouraged to return to Christ to be holy.
 
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ttruscott

Well-known member
Are you kidding? Mr. Strong is just a man. He is not in the Bible.

God brings His gospel to people in their language.
A short perusal of common interpretations:

Psalm 9:17

Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
The wicked go down to the realm of the dead, all the nations that forget God.

The wicked willgo down to the grave. This is the fate of all the nations who ignore God.

The wicked shall return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.

The wicked will return to Sheol, Even all the nations who forget God.

The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

The wicked will return to Sheol-- all the nations that forget God.

The wicked will turn back to where the dead are — all the nations that have forgotten God.

The wicked are turned back and sent to Sheol; this is the destiny of all the nations that ignore God,

The wicked shall be turned back to Sheol, even all the nations that forget God.

The wicked shall turn back to Sheol, and all the peoples that forget God

Wicked people, all the nations who forget God, will return to the grave.

The wicked shall return to the nether-world, Even all the nations that forget God.

The wicked will return to Sheol,
Even all the nations who forget God.

The wicked shall be put into Sheol, all the Gentiles that forget God.

The wicked shall be turned into sheol, and all the nations that forget God.

The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

The wicked shall be turned back unto Sheol, Even all the nations that forget God.

The wicked shall be turned into hell, all the nations that forget God.

The wicked shall be turned into Sheol, all the nations that forget God.

The wicked shall return to Sheol, even all the nations that forget God.

The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

The wicked shall be turned back to Sheol, even all the nations that forget God.

The wicked do turn back to Sheol, All nations forgetting God.

So you scorn Strong's because he disagrees with your theology? Here is the Hebrew concordance for your edification:
Psalm 9:17
HEB: יָשׁ֣וּבוּ רְשָׁעִ֣ים לִשְׁא֑וֹלָה
The wicked will return to Sheol,
will return the wicked to Sheol

and the same word is also to be turned back (not away from) as in to return, in Psalm 59:6 and Psalm 70:3 so those quotes with 'turn back' are in essential agreement with return, not to be turned into...
 

iouae

Well-known member
God spent an awful lot of time in the OT opening and closing wombs, keeping folks like Ab from having babies, enabling Sarai to conceive at age 90, not allowing Rachel to conceive while blessing Leah because she was so disliked by Jacob.

Other womb activities include Rebeckah with Esau and Jacob, even Joseph with Ephraim and Manasseh where the younger was to exceed the elder from the beginning.

Then David was born to replace Saul.
Jeremiah was chosen before he was born.

Then of course John the baptist and Christ's miraculous birth.

To me it is obvious that God is choosing breeding pairs as any farmer chooses breeding stock for a particular purpose. Even the flood was intended to remove the breed of Nephilim where the "Sons of God" interbred with "the daughters of men", polluting the Homo sapiens bloodline.

The fact that God worked so hard at this selective breeding, especially with the 12 tribes of Israel, making sure the Ab, Isaac and Jacob all had wives from the same stock, show that God is prepared to invest an inordinate amount of effort in His selective human breeding program.

This in fact demonstrates the process of predestination.
Suppose a horse breeder wants a fast horse. He chooses two likely horses to breed racing horses.
Likewise, God had a certain bloodline in mind for ancient Israel. And Revelation tells us that God is going to surround New Jerusalem with Israelites, and that the gates to New Jerusalem all are named after the tribes of Israel, but Dan loses out - again another God choice.

This is exactly what predestination means. God works hard to achieve an effect. In this way He can prophesy "this is what will be" and then He can work to make it come to pass.

Just as there is no spookiness here in the form of knowing the future, there is exactly the same lack of spookiness in horse breeding. Yet a horse breeder achieves his goal inevitably, with enough resources. And nobody has resources like God.

And just as horse breeding has some hit-and-miss randomness about it, so the Bible is FULL of the hit-and-miss successes and failures of God in achieving His purposes. At one point, but for Moses, God might have thrown the petri dish of Israel into the garbage, and made Moses a great nation. Only Moses prevented that disaster.

God does not have to know the future to predestinate. He just has the power to work at something for as long as it takes to achieve His goal. And God has the time.

Pate is right that Calvinistic predestination is a non-starter.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
God spent an awful lot of time in the OT opening and closing wombs, keeping folks like Ab from having babies, enabling Sarai to conceive at age 90, not allowing Rachel to conceive while blessing Leah because she was so disliked by Jacob.

Other womb activities include Rebeckah with Esau and Jacob, even Joseph with Ephraim and Manasseh where the younger was to exceed the elder from the beginning.

Then David was born to replace Saul.
Jeremiah was chosen before he was born.

Then of course John the baptist and Christ's miraculous birth.

To me it is obvious that God is choosing breeding pairs as any farmer chooses breeding stock for a particular purpose. Even the flood was intended to remove the breed of Nephilim where the "Sons of God" interbred with "the daughters of men", polluting the Homo sapiens bloodline.

The fact that God worked so hard at this selective breeding, especially with the 12 tribes of Israel, making sure the Ab, Isaac and Jacob all had wives from the same stock, show that God is prepared to invest an inordinate amount of effort in His selective human breeding program.

This in fact demonstrates the process of predestination.
Suppose a horse breeder wants a fast horse. He chooses two likely horses to breed racing horses.
Likewise, God had a certain bloodline in mind for ancient Israel. And Revelation tells us that God is going to surround New Jerusalem with Israelites, and that the gates to New Jerusalem all are named after the tribes of Israel, but Dan loses out - again another God choice.

This is exactly what predestination means. God works hard to achieve an effect. In this way He can prophesy "this is what will be" and then He can work to make it come to pass.

Just as there is no spookiness here in the form of knowing the future, there is exactly the same lack of spookiness in horse breeding. Yet a horse breeder achieves his goal inevitably, with enough resources. And nobody has resources like God.

And just as horse breeding has some hit-and-miss randomness about it, so the Bible is FULL of the hit-and-miss successes and failures of God in achieving His purposes. At one point, but for Moses, God might have thrown the petri dish of Israel into the garbage, and made Moses a great nation. Only Moses prevented that disaster.

God does not have to know the future to predestinate. He just has the power to work at something for as long as it takes to achieve His goal. And God has the time.

Pate is right that Calvinistic predestination is a non-starter.


In the old Testament era God was bringing forth a nation and a people from whom the savior of the world would come. Now that the savior has arrived God is no longer a respecter of persons, Acts 10:34. It is God's will now that we all become conformed to the image of his Son, Romans 8:29.
 
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