Why Homosexuality MUST Be Recriminalized! Part 7

[Idolater]

Being denied my freedom for the rest of my life would be torture for me.

Rights are not and are not supposed to be subjective.

 

[Arthur Brain]

The truth really makes you angry.
You should look into that.

The truth is that there's no justification, Biblical or otherwise for executing five year old children, just one of the things (the most vile, certainly) that far right fundamentalism advocates. Sure, such an appalling notion makes me angry as it would anyone who's remotely 'normal'. If it doesn't for you then don't lecture about truth cos you ain't got any.

 

[Arthur Brain]

TL;DR ---- I also reject that.

I am Catholic (I go to weekly Mass, and I get my cookie) and one of the Catholic things I'm considering is whether there exists an unconditional human right against being executed, period. Of course, Pope Francis has put the idea in my head himself, not only in my head, but in everyone's heads, and especially into Catholic heads.

Who read headlines. Because I did not learn about it at Mass.

The papacy's a bit of a 'bully pulpit', the pope's just automatically famous, and Pope Francis uses his fame to communicate to us easily, the press largely does the legwork for him, and for us.

He's put the idea that maybe we all have a right against being executed, of even quote-unquote "justified" execution, out there, and I'm thinking it over. It would have to mean that it would be immoral to ever execute anybody at any time for any reason. Note that the pope explained that it is because of our prisons that this right is coming revealed now, our prisons are so good now that we can afford to be moral with immoral people (violent criminals), without risking our family's lives in the process.

Since it is within our power now to ensure that they will 'rot' in prison, now this right against being executed comes clearer into view, the final blind spot of myopia melts away. The idea that capital punishment is immoral is not new in our generation, it was already here when we were born, it is a traditional idea, it is old. But the idea that there exists a human right, that is absolute, against being executed, strikes at the heart of the history of the Church, because from John the Baptist, to Jesus, Stephen, all the Apostles, each of them were executed ---- they were unarmed and they were put to death.

It would mean that the Nazis were immoral even if every one of their victims was a violent criminal (which of course they weren't). I do kind of like that angle. Anything to pile on the Nazis is good stuff.

To be fair, I didn't think you'd support it.

I'm against capital punishment, mainly because of the inevitable wrongful convictions and would only support it for crimes such as murder, rape, child molestation with 100% proof of guilt before sentence.

 

[Right Divider]

The truth is that there's no justification, Biblical or otherwise for executing five year old children, just one of the things (the most vile, certainly) that far right fundamentalism advocates. Sure, such an appalling notion makes me angry as it would anyone who's remotely 'normal'. If it doesn't for you then don't lecture about truth cos you ain't got any.

This thread is about homosexuals. Homosexuals are sexual perverts.

 

[Arthur Brain]

This thread is about homosexuals. Homosexuals are sexual perverts.

And folk who advocate for human beings who are homosexual to be executed are far right fundamentalists who can be dismissed, just like all manner of else the far right advocates.

 

[ok doser]

This thread is about homosexuals. Homosexuals are sexual perverts.

raising children in a culture that teaches that sexual perversion is normal is the worst kind of child abuse.

 

[Idolater]

... Matthew 5:32 and Matthew 19:9.

...
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of ΠΟΡΝ, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

...
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for ΠΟΡΝ, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
...

'ΠΟΡΝ' is the Greek for 'perversion'.

If ΠΟΡΝ is recriminalized, it won't be because of fundamentalism, it will be because we all democratically are persuaded that it is a crime, based on self evidence, that's liberalism. And if not that, it will be because we all democratically agree that it's unethical and so we're going to paternalistically impose our ethics on everybody, that's conservativism. There isn't another option.

Here's some grist for our mill:

...
Porneia: The Greek word porneia is more expansive than the term for adultery. English Bible versions often translate it with the word fornication. It covers sexual sin generally and so includes adultery, fornication, homosexuality, prostitution, transgenderism, pornography, etc. The Bible uses the word porneia to refer to sexual aberrations such as homosexuality and incest (Rom. 1:29; 1 Cor. 5:1).


SOURCE: https://kgov.com/homosexuality-debate-bob-enyart-vs-wayne-besen

The Greek ' ΠΟΡΝ' I argue means in English 'perversion', but there are some who believe that ΠΟΡΝ only ever means prostitution.

As such when they read Matthew 5:32 and Matthew 19:9 they only think that the Lord was excusing prostitution, and not the much more widely implying 'perversion'. But it's not hard to compare the two positions, by just substituting in for that Greek word both my (and the late @Bob Enyart 's) interpretation and this former one, to see what they look like in print.

The limited view:

...
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of prostitution causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

...
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for prostitution, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

My 'Perversion' view:

But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of adultery, fornication, homosexuality, prostitution, pornography, incest, masturbation, or other sexual aberrations causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
...
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for adultery, fornication, homosexuality, prostitution, pornography, incest, masturbation, or other sexual aberrations, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Note that ' ΠΟΡΝ' is unlikely to mean just 'adultery,' since there's another Greek word for adultery, and that other word is used in those same scriptures, so it's unlikely that ' ΠΟΡΝ' should be rendered as "unfaithfulness" imo.

 

[Idolater]

raising children in a culture that teaches that sexual perversion is normal is the worst kind of child abuse.

It would be worse in a culture that teaches that rape is normal.

 

[Idolater]

And folk who advocate for human beings who are homosexual to be executed are far right fundamentalists who can be dismissed, just like all manner of else the far right advocates.

I don't think that I'm not a far right fundamentalist, and I don't advocate for the execution of any perverts.

 

[Idolater]

This thread is about homosexuals. Homosexuals are sexual perverts.

'Practicing' ones. Celibate (iow chaste) homosexuals are not perverted.

 

[ok doser]

I don't think that I'm not a far right fundamentalist, and I don't advocate for the execution of any perverts.

Rapists should be executed.
Child molesters should be executed.
Adulterers should be executed.
Homosexuals should be executed.

 

[Idolater]

To be fair, I didn't think you'd support it.

I'm against capital punishment, mainly because of the inevitable wrongful convictions

And the pope isn't saying that. He's proffering that there is an absolute human right against it, and it has nothing to do with inevitable wrongful convictions. It's definitely a different take on the matter.

and would only support it for crimes such as murder, rape, child molestation with 100% proof of guilt before sentence.

Violent crimes, yeah. What about perjury with the result being someone wrongly convicted of and then executed for a violent crime? Would you support executing that false witness?

 

[Idolater]

Rapists should be executed.
Child molesters should be executed.

Those are violent criminals. They're categorically different from just perverts.

Adulterers should be executed.
Homosexuals should be executed.

OK. Disagreed.

 

[ok doser]

Those are violent criminals.

not according to modern fourth wave feminism definitions of rape which are now applicable legally

and pedophile supporters will argue that they are not violating a willing child

 

[Idolater]

not according to modern fourth wave feminism definitions of rape which are now applicable legally

and pedophile supporters will argue that they are not violating a willing child

How is rape not a violent crime? I can understand people not recognizing perjury as a violent crime since there's no bodily harm, but in rape there is sometimes bodily harm.

 

[ok doser]

How is rape not a violent crime? I can understand people not recognizing perjury as a violent crime since there's no bodily harm, but in rape there is sometimes bodily harm.

Sometimes, yes

But now with modern definitions and concepts of consent, you have the peculiar situation that my children were conceived through rape. The rape of me.

 

[Arthur Brain]

And the pope isn't saying that. He's proffering that there is an absolute human right against it, and it has nothing to do with inevitable wrongful convictions. It's definitely a different take on the matter.

Violent crimes, yeah. What about perjury with the result being someone wrongly convicted of and then executed for a violent crime? Would you support executing that false witness?

Well, if I'm against the DP with the exception for horrific crimes and even then only if such has been established with absolutely no room for even a shadow of doubt, then your scenario isn't applicable. To me, anyway.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I don't think that I'm not a far right fundamentalist, and I don't advocate for the execution of any perverts.

Are you saying that you think that you are a far right fundamentalist or was the "not" inadvertent? I don't consider you to be so although I am wondering what the point of this thread is?

 

[Idolater]

Sometimes, yes

But now with modern definitions and concepts of consent, you have the peculiar situation that my children were conceived through rape. The rape of me.

That's odd.

Which has become par for the course, for the modern culture, as far as I'm concerned.

Sadly, I think.

Well, if I'm against the DP with the exception for horrific crimes and even then only if such has been established with absolutely no room for even a shadow of doubt, then your scenario isn't applicable. To me, anyway.

Specifically what if a false witness committed perjury that resulted in the incorrect conviction and subsequent execution of an innocent person? Does that rise to the level of "horrific crimes" in your view?

Are you saying that you think that you are a far right fundamentalist or was the "not" inadvertent?

It was not inadvertent, yes I am a far right fundamentalist.

I don't consider you to be so

Thank you.

although I am wondering what the point of this thread is?

It's a tradition, what was begun perhaps in an unethical spirit nonetheless provides a unique place on the web to discuss the matter without getting downvoted or cancelled because that's not what we do here. It's an important question to answer, are there 'consensual' acts that should be criminalized and why? Or why not. This will be answered in this thread.

 

[Arthur Brain]

That's odd.

Which has become par for the course, for the modern culture, as far as I'm concerned.

Sadly, I think.

Specifically what if a false witness committed perjury that resulted in the incorrect conviction and subsequent execution of an innocent person? Does that rise to the level of "horrific crimes" in your view?

It was not inadvertent, yes I am a far right fundamentalist.

Thank you.

It's a tradition, what was begun perhaps in an unethical spirit nonetheless provides a unique place on the web to discuss the matter without getting downvoted or cancelled because that's not what we do here. It's an important question to answer, are there 'consensual' acts that should be criminalized and why? Or why not. This will be answered in this thread.

Well, again, if I'm against the DP then such a scenario couldn't apply in terms of anyone being executed. Now, that's not to say that perjury is anything to be taken lightly, it absolutely isn't, especially in regards to crimes that can put wrongfully convicted people behind bars for a long time, not to mention the horrible toll it can take on their life in general. Those who willingly and falsely accuse others of serious offences and even more minor ones should face severe penalty for it IMO.

AFAIC, in terms of the topic, then no, homosexuality should not be remade a crime. If you have religious objections to it and consider it a sin then that's different and your prerogative to believe so, obviously. That's no reason why the whole of society should be subjected to laws based on certain religious views.