Why do men suffer?

[iouae]

I am clearly an 'anti-authoritarian'. For the simple reason that I see no evidence at all that any adult human being should have authority over any other. A collective of humans, by necessity, must establish some functional authority to keep order amongst themselves, and that authority should be respected. But even that will be subject to corruption, and so respected 'with skepticism'.

The relationship between parents and children should NOT be taken as any sort of model for relationships between adults. To do so would be both absurdly irresponsible and dangerously unhealthy. (I'm excluding instances of debilitating illness that render adults unable to function as adults.) Our lives, our ideals, our actions, and our reactions are our own responsibility. No one else's. And anyone who tries to set themselves up as having "authority" over us in that way is a liar and thief, and is trying to steal our autonomy. And a life without autonomy is not living life at all. It's just existing.

I love the way the kids of today have opinions and are not backward in coming forward to express these. Of course one has to be respectful doing so. But they feel quite on a par with adults and can hold their own, and feel they have rights, including the right to be heard.

And they have computer skills far beyond their parents. So the kids have power, because whenever the computer goes down, the kids are called to fix it. And if the parents are snippy, or want to ground them, they just shrug their shoulders and say sorry I can't fix your computer.

And because kids are more like equals, they are happy to stay at home into their 30's because they don't feel bossed over or beholden.

Frankly I feel no sorrow for the kids of today. I think they are living in the best of times. Of course they have to stay away from drugs, trolls, kids bullying them in cyberspace and a few other hazards. I don't see too much suffering on the part of Western kids, if they can learn to control peer pressure.

So were you a middle-child that you are anti-authoritarian?

 

[PureX]

So were you a middle-child that you are anti-authoritarian?

I am a long time past my childhood. I think childhood is different for every kid. As evidenced by how kids that grow up under the same conditions will react to them very differently. And I expect the same will be true of kids that grow up in different times, and cultures.

But the point of growing up is to become autonomous. The responsibility of the parents is to teach their kids this, and to show them how. Parents that want to teach their kids to depend on some religion, or government, or social niche all their lives have never fully grown up themselves, and are acting to retard their own kid's growth.

Life without autonomy is not living.

None of us can ever become fully autonomous, as we need each other to fully find and express ourselves. But we should strive to be as self-sufficient and autonomous as we can be. And we should devote ourselves, if we have kids, to teaching them to do the same.

Much human suffering comes from our struggle to be free, both of our own dependencies, and of the dependancies of others. Once we get free of these, though, we can give freely of ourselves, without all the suffering or struggle. Then we are truly enriched.

 

[iouae]

I am a long time past my childhood. I think childhood is different for every kid. As evidenced by how kids that grow up under the same conditions will react to them very differently. And I expect the same will be true of kids that grow up in different times, and cultures.

But the point of growing up is to become autonomous. The responsibility of the parents is to teach their kids this, and to show them how. Parents that want to teach their kids to depend on some religion, or government, or social niche all their lives have never fully grown up themselves, and are acting to retard their own kid's growth.

Life without autonomy is not living.

None of us can ever become fully autonomous, as we need each other to fully find and express ourselves. But we should strive to be as self-sufficient and autonomous as we can be. And we should devote ourselves, if we have kids, to teaching them to do the same.

Much human suffering comes from our struggle to be free, both of our own dependencies, and of the dependancies of others. Once we get free of these, though, we can give freely of ourselves, without all the suffering or struggle. Then we are truly enriched.

I could not agree with you more!

And growing up means losing all the baggage which one's parents have unwittingly placed on one, and embracing all the good traits which they have blessed one with. But being autonomous is great. And for women today, they truly are free to fly.

 

[quip]

We fear God for the same reason, viz. that we feel He knows better than us, what is for our own good.

So, you suffer to attain the desire of "goodness"... QED.

Do you ever attain/sustain it....or is it constantly just short of reach?

 

[iouae]

So, you suffer to attain the desire of "goodness"... QED.

Do you ever attain/sustain it....or is it constantly just short of reach?

Many Christians feel this way.
I used to feel this way.
Now I feel that Jesus "imputes" righteousness to us because we believe, just as Abraham was forgiven and declared righteous BECAUSE he believed.

I do believe there are 1050 do's and don'ts in the NT which I try to do or not do. But no action on my part will save me.

So there is no suffering or mental anguish or feeling of "falling short", just total peace.

Do you ever feel inadequate in your religion?
Are there any do's and don't for you?

 

[quip]

Many Christians feel this way.
I used to feel this way.
Now I feel that Jesus "imputes" righteousness to us because we believe, just as Abraham was forgiven and declared righteous BECAUSE he believed.

I do believe there are 1050 do's and don'ts in the NT which I try to do or not do. But no action on my part will save me.

So there is no suffering or mental anguish or feeling of "falling short", just total peace.

...and if you don't believe, what happens?

Do you ever feel inadequate in your religion?
Are there any do's and don't for you?

By who's measure of inadequacy?

 

[iouae]

...and if you don't believe, what happens?



By who's measure of inadequacy?

I have been a believer since my earliest memory since my Grandfather got hold of me early, so I have no clue what it is like to not believe. That someone else will have to answer.

The only measure of inadequacy that matters is if you feel inadequate. Do you feel at total peace in your faith as I do?

 

[quip]

I have been a believer since my earliest memory since my Grandfather got hold of me early, so I have no clue what it is like to not believe. That someone else will have to answer.

What is stopping you from losing your attachment to faith?

The only measure of inadequacy that matters is if you feel inadequate. Do you feel at total peace in your faith as I do?

Yes, because there is no "faith" per se.

 

[iouae]

What is stopping you from losing your attachment to faith?



Yes, because there is no "faith" per se.

At age 5 my folks moved to a new town. First day of school, I got lost walking home, so prayed and eventually found my way home after much wandering. Second day, got lost again, prayed again, and after much wandering got home. All my life I felt helped in times of need.

All can be tested like Job to feel neglected by God, but like Job, we must be resolute. Even Jesus felt deserted by God on the cross. So we can all resolve before the time to be resolute in trouble. And God does provide relief.

I take it you are a Buddhist. Is that more of a philosophy than a faith?

 

[quip]

At age 5 my folks moved to a new town. First day of school, I got lost walking home, so prayed and eventually found my way home after much wandering. Second day, got lost again, prayed again, and after much wandering got home. All my life I felt helped in times of need.

All can be tested like Job to feel neglected by God, but like Job, we must be resolute. Even Jesus felt deserted by God on the cross. So we can all resolve before the time to be resolute in trouble. And God does provide relief.

Understandable.

I take it you are a Buddhist. Is that more of a philosophy than a faith?

Precisely. There's simply "is" or "isn't", faith need not apply. Buddhism is either complete bunk (in whole or in part) or it's not. It makes no sense to worry whether its true or not, nor to convince others otherwise.

Take it or leave it....just don't do either via blind faithfulness.

 

[iouae]

Understandable.



Precisely. There's simply "is" or "isn't", faith need not apply. Buddhism is either complete bunk (in whole or in part) or it's not. It makes no sense to worry whether its true or not, nor to convince others otherwise.

Take it or leave it....just don't do either via blind faithfulness.

Is it possible to be a Buddhist and a Christian?
Are the two incompatible in their lifestyles?

I just had a quick read about Buddhism at http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/5minbud.htm

 

[PureX]

At age 5 my folks moved to a new town. First day of school, I got lost walking home, so prayed and eventually found my way home after much wandering. Second day, got lost again, prayed again, and after much wandering got home. All my life I felt helped in times of need.

I understand, believe me. But I would like to point out that the praying didn't show you the way home so much as it kept you calm and focussed and hopeful while you found your own way home. This is important to recognize, I think, if we wish to practice prayer with honesty and humility.

I am a proponent of the practice of prayer, but not to seek 'magical solutions'. Rather, to help oneself find the focus, and the courage, and the wisdom to act as needed in trying circumstances. And I believe those prayers nearly always work, whether we find our way home or not.

All can be tested like Job to feel neglected by God, but like Job, we must be resolute. Even Jesus felt deserted by God on the cross. So we can all resolve before the time to be resolute in trouble. And God does provide relief.

I have found that when I feel like I'm being "tested by God" (I don't anymore), it's because I think I should be treated better by God and by life than I am. And that's essentially a flaw in my own thinking, not a deliberate imposition, by God. And once I humble myself, I understand that we all get our share of trials and tribulations, and I'm not any different or any better than anyone else; I find my trials and tribulations don't bother me nearly so much. I simply do what I can do to mitigate the suffering, and then wait it out. Because I know that change is inevitable, and all suffering ends sooner or later. Because neither God nor life is merciless.

I take it you are a Buddhist. Is that more of a philosophy than a faith?

I am a taoist Christian. But taoism is very old and is also expressed to some degree by Buddhism. I find that philosophical taoism 'dovetales' seamlessly with practical Christianity, and together they are a most sensible and effective way of being.

 

[quip]

Is it possible to be a Buddhist and a Christian?
Are the two incompatible in their lifestyles?

All's contingent upon perspective.

Buddhism has no such restraint...Christianity on the other hand....



Good read. (or listen...as the case may be. )

 

[iouae]

I am a proponent of the practice of prayer, but not to seek 'magical solutions'. Rather, to help oneself find the focus, and the courage, and the wisdom to act as needed in trying circumstances. And I believe those prayers nearly always work, whether we find our way home or not.
I have found that when I feel like I'm being "tested by God" (I don't anymore), it's because I think I should be treated better by God and by life. And that's essentially a flaw in my own thinking, not an imposition by God. And when I humble myself, and understand that we all get our share of trials and tribulations, and I'm not different or better than anyone else, I find my trials and tribulations don't bother me nearly so much. I simply do what I can do, and wait it out. Because change is inevitable, and all suffering ends sooner or later. Because neither God nor life is merciless.
I am a taoist Christian. But taoism is very old and is also expressed to some degree by Buddhism. I find that philosophical taoism 'dovetales' seamlessly with non-religious Christianity, and together they are a most sensible and effective way of being.

Just looked up Taoism at https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090421180322AAaG0RO

Seems like there is a lot of overlap between Christianity and Taoism, except for the priority Christians place on a relationship with Christ. Possibly the imputing of righteousness by Christ. I don't know if Taoists are made to feel guilty about sin?

Expectations are a huge source of suffering. One can have unrealistic expectations of God and materialism which will both equally lead to dissatisfaction.

I must admit to a life devoted to removing feelings of inadequacy and guilt and worry. I am pretty practiced at it now. Started with reading "How to stop worrying and start living" by Dale Carnegie, and I apply this like the Bible.

 

[iouae]

All's contingent upon perspective.

Buddhism has no such restraint...Christianity on the other hand....



Good read. (or listen...as the case may be. )

I try to live by the 1050 do's and don't of the NT.
I personally find them to be good sense and not restrictive.

Probably there is a lot in common with Buddhism, such as Christ was really against attachment to wealth and possessions and cares of this world. I believe Christians today falsely teach that Christ promises wealth and possessions and worldly blessings.

Instead I believe He promised peace.

John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

 

[PureX]

Just looked up Taoism at https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090421180322AAaG0RO

Seems like there is a lot of overlap between Christianity and Taoism, except for the priority Christians place on a relationship with Christ. Possibly the imputing of righteousness by Christ. I don't know if Taoists are made to feel guilty about sin?

Philosophical taoism does not recognize 'sin', or even 'evil'. Nor does it refer to the tao as any sort of god. It simply accepts all that is, as an expression of the tao ("tao" meaning way, or more specifically the way existence exists: the 'flow of being'). There is no good and evil, only the yin and the yang of being. Perceptual forces that appear to oppose each other, yet cause each other to exist. The taoist understanding of the yin and the yang would be more along the lines of them being illusions created in our own minds by the way we humans perceive the world around us. Yet these illusion are not dismissed or disparaged, because they are a part of the 'tao of man'. Just as are our gods, and superstitions, and so on.

The point of taoism is simply to be who and what we are (authenticity and spontaneity through the practice of honesty and humility), which will often include religions, for many of us, and yet none, for others. Taoism recognizes both theism and atheism as being expressions of the yin and yang of human kind. And so accepts both theism and atheism as equally relevant and authentic.

I find taoism to be incredibly freeing while being both simple and honest. And it's all-inclusive so it finds no contention with Christian principals. What a breath of fresh air!

Expectations are a huge source of suffering. One can have unrealistic expectations of God and materialism which will both equally lead to dissatisfaction.

Yes, in Dante's Inferno, the phrase "abandon all hope, ye who enter here" was written over the gateway to hell. It's classic western philosophy. Yet in eastern thought, that same phrase might be found written over the gateway to heaven. As in eastern philosophy, desire (hope) is considered the root of all our suffering. To abandon such, is to be set free!

I must admit to a life devoted to removing feelings of inadequacy and guilt and worry. I am pretty practiced at it now. Started with reading "How to stop worrying and start living" by Dale Carnegie, and I apply this like the Bible.

I was in an AA meeting many years ago, and a young man that looked amazingly like pictures of my father when he was young, commented in the meeting. He was talking about the effect of the baggage we all seem to carry around with us. He said; "they spoon fed me 'crap' until I learned to hold the spoon, myself. And then I just kept on eating it!".

How true that is, for all of us! And if don't recognize what's happened to us, we'll just go one taking the crap and feeding it to our own kids! And on and on and on it goes. Such the primary responsibility of every adult, I think, is to divest themselves of as much of this 'crap' they've been fed, and can identify, as they can. So that they won't be spitting it back out at everyone around them, and feeding it to the next generation. And that requires rigorous honesty, and continuous effort at self-awareness and spiritual change.

It's a responsibility that many of us never recognize, sadly, and so never address.

 

[iouae]

As in eastern philosophy, desire (hope) is considered the root of all our suffering.
I was in an AA meeting many years ago, and a young man that looked amazingly like pictures of my father when he was young, commented in the meeting. He was talking about the effect of the baggage we all seem to carry around with us. He said; "they spoon fed me 'crap' until I learned to hold the spoon, myself. And then I just kept on eating it!".

How true that is, for all of us! And if we don't see what's happening, we'll go one to feed it to our own kids! And on and on and on … The primary responsibility of every adult, I think, is to divest themselves of as much of this 'crap' that they've been fed as they can identify. So that they won't be spitting it at everyone around them, and feeding it to the next generation.

It's a responsibility that many never recognize, sadly, and so never address.

People moan about how their children raised them, and then raise their children exactly the same way.

I used to belong to a cult where I never questioned anything.
Then I left and now question everything, taking nothing for granted.

That quote you gave contains a lot of truth.

As for hope, I am a big optimist. I really think that the more hope the better. It is not hoping for a new xxxx but rather looking at the blessings which each day brings and being grateful for these.

Even if I were to die now, nothing could erase all the blessings I have received so far. And I recognise these as coming from God, even if it is just through Him designing such a beautiful, colourful, aromatic, opportunity filled world, where every minute we can enjoy things that no others in history have seen before. Think of the world in a drop of pond water that nobody saw till recently, or the furthest galaxies which Hubble saw for the first time, or fish from the bottom of the ocean, or new scientific discoveries, or new electronic robots or.....

 

[KingdomRose]

Why do men suffer?

One cannot blame it on Satan. Even things which Satan is allowed to do are with permission of God. God is responsible for the good and the bad.

And its not man’s fallen nature which is responsible for the problems either. God created the thorns and cursed the land. And animals have been eating each other since the Cambrian. Diseases have probably been killing off the weak since pre-history.

We can cause some of our own problems through stupidity. The movie “Jackass” comes to mind.

God makes no claim to fairness either. All men are not created equal. Some are born talented and beautiful, and others not so lucky.

Time and chance happen to all. Turns out God does play dice.

And God is not opposed to suffering. Why would He send His Son to die an agonising death if God’s priority was to have no suffering in the world?

And nothing is predestined either as the Calvinists wrongly believe. So fate cannot be blamed either.

If God had created a perfect world where it was impossible to need anything, then why would anyone need God?

God’s priority is to give people life and freedom to choose. Try designing a world where mortals have freedom of choice and no chance of hurting themselves. The world would look like a padded cell, with a person in a strait-jacket. Instead, God created a world with sharp edges, hot and cold, poisons, stinging plants and animals, edges one can fall off, rocks which can fall and crush us.

People are like fish to God. If one dies, He has more. God created an excess of humans, knowing that many would reject him. For God, it’s a game of odds.

For those who do choose Him, the rules change. They become HIS fish. Only now do they gain intrinsic value. He promises to watch over them. This does not mean that time and chance are suspended. Bad things can still happen to good people. The worst that can happen is death, and God has power over this even, to resurrect his saints.

It is a requirement of believers to develop faith. This means not falling apart and losing faith when bad things happen to them. For all eternity, God will send us places we might have second thoughts about going. That is why faith is a prerequisite to eternal life. We will not balk at His command, but go with trust in his watching over us.

One other thing. Parasites, deep water, broken glass, fire, poison, God created a world with sharp edges. We mostly manage to negotiate our way around these. And in the process we learn the meaning of the word "No". "No don't touch, go there, drink that,..."

Which is why "law" is such a big word in the Bible.
Beings with free will have to learn to say "No" to themselves.

If parents don't teach it.... then prison will.
If prison doesn't teach it, then nature will when one takes an overdose. Either way, you will learn to deny yourself. And God created the world to teach us “No”.

Where did God ever promise a perfect world? Show me the place in the book of rules. But we do live in an extremely benevolent world where 99% of the time we are neither hungry nor in pain. The people born in the worst places are generally the last to complain too. When the smallest misfortune comes upon us we cry “Why me Lord?”. In the 99% good times we never question “Why me Lord” when He blesses us.

This is not to trivialise any person’s suffering.

This is a beautiful world and we do not deserve one bit of good that we get. Every thing that brings pleasure is God’s grace. And for those who have trials, God promises His people that they will never be tempted above what they are able to bear. God will reduce the trial, or strengthen His believer, one or the other. For the uncalled, they take their chances, and God owes them nothing.

Yet God’s ultimate goal is to create us needy. Only then will we come to Him for help. Later He will give us a perfect world where all tears will be wiped away.

God allows persons to go ahead and act on their desires. He has given everyone free will, and He has given the angels and mankind a certain amount of time to straighten out the mess they've made because of their wanting independence. The fault belongs to each person, not to God. Adam in essence gave Jehovah the finger and chose to go his own way, independent of Him.

Why did God curse anything? It was AFTER Adam deliberately disobeyed and sought his own ability to decide for himself what was good or bad. The cursing of the ground and thorns, etc., was a direct result of Adam's rebellion. Adam is responsible for that. It IS man's fallen nature that is responsible for all the suffering on Earth today. Jehovah isn't involved in how people are born. He created everything perfect in the beginning. Because of Adam's disobedience and bringing imperfection onto his descendants, people are born imperfect and some more imperfect than others....but it isn't God's fault. He TOLD Adam what the result of his rebellion would be.

Jehovah created angels and humans to have a RELATIONSHIP with Him. He loves His creations. He wants everyone to be happy and listen to Him so they will BENEFIT themselves. You have a twisted view of God. It is, right now & for a little while longer, Satan's world. He is the one who laughs when someone cuts themselves on broken glass. (I John 5:19)

You ask "where did God ever promise a perfect world?" If you read the first couple chapters of Genesis you have to concede that a perfect world was the original intent of God. Everything was just fine. Humans were provided with everything they needed, and they had a close relationship with God. It would have gone on just like that if Adam had continuing obeying God's instructions. He would still be here, today. The world and everything in it would be perfect. Jehovah sent His Son to "buy back" that perfect world. He balanced out Adam's disobedience with his own obedience. One perfect human for the other.

Yes we are "needy" in this system of things, and Jehovah wants us to see that He wants to help us get through it. In the "new world" no one will be needy. We will be back to where Adam left off. You are right in your last statement.

 

[KingdomRose]

Apart from the inherent injustice, that doesn't even make any logical sense.

Stuart

Yes it does, if you stop to think about it. The bottom line is---it's all in the DNA. When Adam rebelled, he immediately started to die. His perfection was gone. Something in his DNA was undoubtedly changed. So how could he pass perfection on to his descendants?

God told him he would die. Plain and direct. Adam disobeyed anyway. His punishment, as he was told, was death. When he disobeyed that punishment was instituted. Jehovah was merely doling out the consequences of Adam's deliberate disobedience. After that, God had no part in how Adam's children would turn out. Everything was contingent upon what happened within Adam to cause him to grow old and die.

And Adam wanted to decide for himself what he wanted to do. He found out that his independence wasn't really to his advantage! He didn't want Jehovah's instructions on anything. So he tried to figure everything out on his own. Stupid.

 

[iouae]

Why did God curse anything? It was AFTER Adam deliberately disobeyed and sought his own ability to decide for himself what was good or bad. The cursing of the ground and thorns, etc., was a direct result of Adam's rebellion. Adam is responsible for that. It IS man's fallen nature that is responsible for all the suffering on Earth today. Jehovah isn't involved in how people are born. He created everything perfect in the beginning. Because of Adam's disobedience and bringing imperfection onto his descendants, people are born imperfect and some more imperfect than others....but it isn't God's fault. He TOLD Adam what the result of his rebellion would be.

I agree with most of your post.

Just on the point of Adam's sin. I believe that Eden was just one of many lands on earth. And in the East was a smallish garden of Eden. Only there was life perfect. Outside were the thorns and land which did not readily yield food. When Adam sinned, they were thrown into the larger world, which the fossil record shows, animals were eating each other since the Cambian.


Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

I don't believe anything which Adam did punishes us today. Sooner or later someone would have sinned, and mankind would have been banished from Eden. There must have been other rules like "Thou shalt not kill each other in an argument". It just so happened they broke the Tree one.

And because newborn babies sooner or later sin "for that all have sinned", they reap the reward for THEIR OWN SINS not Adam's ones.
It was only through Adam that sin entered the world, and 900 years later "death by sin". Think of it, a lamb died, Abel died long before Adam died, so death entered the world not strictly from Adam. Abel's death was not caused by Adam. Paul makes a point, and I think we sometimes make much more of his writings than he ever intended.