Why do men suffer?

[Stuu]

Without God, what are you worth?....

Considerably more!

"What is your body worth?

According to a recent article in Wired magazine, a body could be worth up to $45 million — Calculated by selling the bone marrow, DNA, lungs, kidneys, heart … as components.

What about the value of a body based around just the chemical elements that make up a corpse?....

...The results – Just what is a body worth?

Summing up all the amounts in the Value column, we come to a grand total of just over $160."

http://www.datagenetics.com/blog/april12011/

Nice! Of course most of that value comes from the potassium and sodium, and they have used a list price for the metallic form, but I contain potassium and sodium ions, not the metallic forms. Taking into account the other elemental forms they have listed, which are also present in me as ions, I should think my net value is in the order of a few dollars.

I probably contain about 60kg of water, perhaps more. If you extracted that and sold it as a homeopathic remedy at $10 per 100mL bottle, I could gross $6000.

Stuart

 

[iouae]

John 10:10 because we have an adversary, the thief who cometh not but for to steal and to kill and to destroy. That is the Devil's/Satan's threefold purpose

In pagan cultures where Satan has full sway, He does a tremendous amount of harm.

But his power is zero around Christians, apart from as the Lord allows, which may be to tempt us.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I hate it when folks say it is our lack of faith which is causing us to suffer, to not be healed etc. This is so wrong!! It assumes that it is ALWAYS God's will for us to be healed. Paul besought the Lord 3 times to have his thorn in the flesh removed, and it was not. And we will all die of old age some time, with its accompanying suffering.

Timothy had "oft infirmities" 1 Tim 5:23

You admit in one breath that you lack faith "it assumes that it is always God's will for us to be healed" their is room there for the devil to drive a fleet of buses filled with demons of doubts.

I don't blame the hearers, I blame the preachers YOU.

You ask what is God's will...Jesus is God's will, "I came down from heaven not to do Mine own will but to do the will of Him who sent me"

Show one single example where Christ turned a sick person away saying "it is God's will for you to be sick"

ALL who came to Him were healed....that is God's will.

Paul's thorn in the flesh was no sickness.

You cain't pick out one or two exceptions and set them against the overwhelming weight of scripture and hold up the one or two exceptions as God's will.

People fall into sin...will you preach that it is God's will for them? you do all you can to bring them back to the Lord.

When did God ever will that any should be sick? sickness is a curse it comes because man is a fallen creature.

How can you preach faith and say in your sermon "it may not be God's will?" you can only have faith when you KNOW God's will.

Do you say to the sinners "come ye sinners, receive pardon...but it may be God's will for you to be a sinner" can you see how the devil will come in like a flood if you preach in that fashion.

So he does when you preach healing in such a fashion...it is not the hearers fault but the preachers.

Not everyone is saved at the preaching of the gospel, not everyone is healed....but that does not mean it was not God's will.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Correct. Not to mention that early Christians suffered more than most in preaching the Gospel.

One does not want to add a guilt trip on top of the original suffering by blaming the sufferer for their lack of faith.

I'm putting the guilt trip on YOU

You preach faith mixed with doubt in one breath

You say it is God's will not to heal everyone...so we have a fickle God, not a God of eternal counsels. A God who makes distinctions between persons.

Jesus did not heal everyone, but He healed ALL who came to Him...that is God's will.

 

[iouae]

I'm putting the guilt trip on YOU

You preach faith mixed with doubt in one breath

You say it is God's will not to heal everyone...so we have a fickle God, not a God of eternal counsels. A God who makes distinctions between persons.

Jesus did not heal everyone, but He healed ALL who came to Him...that is God's will.

2 Timothy 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

Apparently Paul did not know that it was God's will to ALWAYS heal.

Otherwise he would not have left Trophimus sick.

Your full redemptive ideas are just not biblical.
And I bet, if you were honest, God does not heal all in your church.
But of course you would blame them, not God.

 

[Totton Linnet]

2 Timothy 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

Apparently Paul did not know that it was God's will to ALWAYS heal.

Otherwise he would not have left Trophimus sick.

Your full redemptive ideas are just not biblical.
And I bet, if you were honest, God does not heal all in your church.
But of course you would blame them, not God.

You can't pick a needle out of a haystack and say this is God's will. Nowhere does Paul say it was God's will for Trophimus to be sick. Paul says in another place that Demas had turned away from the Lord...was it God's will? Could not Paul stop it from happening?

The whole weight of the NT doctrine is that Christ pardons all who come to Him and He heals all who come to Him.

I don't say we will ever see it so, everyone being saved, everyone being healed....but we preach salvation to all.

And to be saved means to be made every whit whole.

 

[False Prophet]

Adam fell from grace, suffering came to Adam's offspring. One man Adam sinned, so sin spread to all men; because all men sin.
12 Sin came into the world because of what one man did, and with sin came death. This is why everyone must die—because everyone sinned. Rom 5

 

[Stuu]

Adam fell from grace, suffering came to Adam's offspring. One man Adam sinned, so sin spread to all men; because all men sin.
12 Sin came into the world because of what one man did, and with sin came death. This is why everyone must die—because everyone sinned. Rom 5

Apart from the inherent injustice, that doesn't even make any logical sense.

Stuart

 

[iouae]

Adam fell from grace, suffering came to Adam's offspring. One man Adam sinned, so sin spread to all men; because all men sin.
12 Sin came into the world because of what one man did, and with sin came death. This is why everyone must die—because everyone sinned. Rom 5

That's why it makes sense. Everyone dies for their own sin. Adam just set us a great example. Paul set us a great example of blaming our parents.

 

[iouae]

You can't pick a needle out of a haystack and say this is God's will. Nowhere does Paul say it was God's will for Trophimus to be sick. Paul says in another place that Demas had turned away from the Lord...was it God's will? Could not Paul stop it from happening?

The whole weight of the NT doctrine is that Christ pardons all who come to Him and He heals all who come to Him.

I don't say we will ever see it so, everyone being saved, everyone being healed....but we preach salvation to all.

And to be saved means to be made every whit whole.

So why did Paul not heal Trophimus?

 

[patrick jane]

So why did Paul not heal Trophimus?

he wasn't worthy

 

[Town Heretic]

Why do men suffer?

Is it possible for the imperfect not to?

God is responsible for the good and the bad.

God is above judgment, so can responsible be the right word? It sounds like a judgment.

God makes no claim to fairness either. All men are not created equal. Some are born talented and beautiful, and others not so lucky.

Why is it "fair" that all men are born as more than equals in will?

People are like fish to God.

No one ever went to a cross for a fish.

For those who do choose Him, the rules change. They become HIS fish. Only now do they gain intrinsic value.

For God so loved the world. The world He loved was broken, unredeemed.

It is a requirement of believers to develop faith. This means not falling apart and losing faith when bad things happen to them. For all eternity, God will send us places we might have second thoughts about going. That is why faith is a prerequisite to eternal life. We will not balk at His command, but go with trust in his watching over us.

An interesting speculation. I don't know if it's true, but it's interesting.

Beings with free will have to learn to say "No" to themselves.

And understand, in time, their nature, that they will still say "yes" by the same means and require grace because of it.

When the smallest misfortune comes upon us we cry “Why me Lord?”. In the 99% good times we never question “Why me Lord” when He blesses us.

"...for my strength is made perfect in weakness."

Thanks. Solid prose and some curious musing. :cheers:

 

[quip]

??

The Origin of Suffering

 

[iouae]

The Origin of Suffering

How similar do you think "attachment to things causes suffering" is to this New Testament scripture?


1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

 

[iouae]

he wasn't worthy

None of us are worthy.

Luckily, healing does not depend on our worthiness, but rather God's grace.

But the very word "grace" means it is a gift from God, not a due.

And God is never obliged to do anything. That is what makes Him God.

All preachers selling the idea "How to unleash the power of God in your life" [if you send me $100 for my snake oil DVD] are trying to sell the idea that God is on a leash, and they control Him.

God heals when He wants, who He wants.

As for Trophimus, a fellow helper of Paul's, if anyone was worthy, it was him. But he was sick. As was Timothy who had "oft infirmities" as was Paul who had a "thorn in the flesh" which may have been a disease. Some say Paul had eyesight problems.

The fact that Christ healed, and that at times Peter's shadow passing over a sick person caused healing, or that power was given to Paul to send out cloths to the sick and they were healed - these are special cases of exceptional healing to promote the Gospel.

But I could be completely wrong

 

[iouae]

Is it possible for the imperfect not to?

True.

God is above judgment, so can responsible be the right word? It sounds like a judgment.

The buck stops at God's desk.

Why is it "fair" that all men are born as more than equals in will?

Fairness is what we complain about only when we see others blessed more than us.

No one ever went to a cross for a fish.

Nice. God saw potential, when it was not there yet.

For God so loved the world. The world He loved was broken, unredeemed.

Still a "fish".

An interesting speculation. I don't know if it's true, but it's interesting.

Harp playing will only be a hobby in heaven.

Thanks. Solid prose and some curious musing. :cheers:

Thank you.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Adam fell from grace, suffering came to Adam's offspring. One man Adam sinned, so sin spread to all men; because all men sin.
12 Sin came into the world because of what one man did, and with sin came death. This is why everyone must die—because everyone sinned. Rom 5

Jesus died for us

The physical death of our bodies is the only enemy left to face for the believer

 

[Totton Linnet]

So why did Paul not heal Trophimus?

Why did God heal Epaphraditus? nobody mentions him, they fix their eyes upon Trophimus

Epaphraditus was sick even was dying but God had mercy and restored him to the Ephesians.

The bible nowhere says that it was God's will that Trophimus was sick, or in fact that he also did not recover, it does not say what his sickness was, if he had a bout of flu that would be reason enough for Paul to leave him at Miletus.

My only purpose is to show that it is not God's will that the child of God be sick and that it is always His will to heal.

If you are ever going to pray the prayer of faith you must start out there.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I will give you FOUR cardinal facts which PROVE infallibly that sickness was never God's will for man, that it is ALWAYS God's will for man to be in health and prosper, even as his soul prospers.

No.1

The Garden of Eden

When God made man he placed him for his home in a garden of great beauty and abundance, there was no sickness, no sorrow, poverty was an alien to the Garden of Eden...this is PROOF that God's will for man has ALWAYS been good and only good and that continually.

No.2.

My second infallible proof is

Heaven.

Heaven is to be man's eternal home, he will dwell with God forever. There is no sickness, no sorrow. This is PROOF that God's will for mankind has only ever been good.

No.3.

The life and ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ.

He IS the very Persona of God's will for man. Whatever He did is what God will always do. He ALWAYS healed EVERYONE who ever came to Him asking for healing.

He NEVER turned away a single person, there was never a single instance where He said "go thy way, it is not God's will for you to be healed....or go in sickness that it might bring glory to God, or you need to learn a lesson or it will help thee to be holy or humble"

Never, never, never.

This is infallible proof that God's will is ALWAYS to heal all who ask Him.

No.4.

My fourth infallible proof may seem the weakest but it is not, it is the proof we need and the proof that we must come to God with in believing prayer.

Scripture is my fourth infallible proof

Bless the Lord O my soul and forget not all His benefits
Who forgiveth ALL thine iniquities [who is "thine"]
Who healeth ALL thy diseases [who is "thy"]
Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things

There are no "ifs" no "buts" the leper knelt before Him and said "Lord if it be Thy will...."

Jesus said "I will"

I do not say we will ever see like gospel days when everybody who comes to be healed will be healed....maybe we will, God is on the march in other places in the world. But I DO say it is always His will.

 

[chrysostom]

Why do men suffer?

it is part of the test