this is a great question
but
the answer here is not so great
the real question is
how can God know what the free will will choose before He creates it?
the answer must be
He can't
so
it must be tested
and
that is why we are here
Why do men suffer?
- Thread starter iouae
- Start date
this is a great question
but
the answer here is not so great
the real question is
how can God know what the free will will choose before He creates it?
the answer must be
He can't
so
it must be tested
and
that is why we are here
lain:
iouae
Well-known member
Nice post.
I tend to forget that Satan does cause SOME problems. What problems do you feel Satan causes us in everyday life?
iouae
Well-known member
That scripture is a dual example of how our desires lead to attachment which, in turn, lead us to suffering. Some of our paths to suffering are obvious .. as in the attachment to money per the quoted scripture. Many sources of our suffering present a more subtle demeanor.
Can you discern the second iteration of attachment within Timothy 6:10 ?
Why do men suffer?
Because they deserve it :devil:
Because they deserve it :devil:
Ask Mr. Religion
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Rather, it is the duty of all to obey. Just because fallen man has no ability to do this does not change the command. That's why every time a lost person rejects the outward call of the gospel he falls deeper and deeper into covenantal curse with God. It's a savor of death unto death.
As we find in Romans 1, the wrath of God is against men for their suppressing the righteousness of God and what is known of Him. All have no excuse in their suppression of the truth of God in unrighteousness.
Even those who have never heard the Good News, including the pagan in the jungle is without excuse for they have a duty to seek after God because of God's general revelation. Paul explicitly says to the pagan Athenians in Acts 17,
Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Accordingly, general revelation reveals enough of God for us to have a duty to seek him, and if we do we will "perhaps reach out for him and find him".
We are to regard repentance and faith as the means by which the great commandment to love God and love our neighbor finds fulfillment. This duty to love God and neighbor existed before the fall and Adam certainly enjoyed the ability to do so. Our love of God is therefore still obligatory, and the means through which it is to be realized, namely repentance and faith, are likewise obligatory. All mankind owe God our love and trust by the very fact that all are His rational creatures. Adam had the ability to love and trust God before the Fall. All are still responsible to love and trust God despite the Fall and while in our unregenerate state, we do not have the ability to do so.
Note here that an imperative (the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.) cannot be deduced from an indicative (man has the creaturely power within him to do as he is told). Romanists historically have assumed that the biblical call to perfection implied its possibility. Thanks be to God Luther knew better. What can be and what ought to be are not necessarily coordinate. That all who hear the Good News are under obligation to repent and believe (irrespective of election or reprobation) is not disproved by the reality of the fallen mind. After all, the elect had carnal minds, too, when they first heard the gospel. God's command to believe presupposes man's ability to do so. Firstly, by man's original ability, lost by the fall. Secondly, by a renewed ability, in which the Holy Spirit determines the will of the elect so that they can receive and embrace the gospel offer. [Note: Hyper-Calvinists will deny "duty-faith" on the basis that man now has no ability to believe, but we Reformed reply that the creditor does not lose His right simply because the debtor has lost his estate.]
In summary, fallen man is duty-bound to repent and believe in Christ—even though left to himself he is unable. Biblically speaking, responsibility to God does not imply or necessitate ability on our part. Yet, the basis and motive for the gospel call is not man's duty, but the grace of God in Christ. God everywhere in Scripture commands what man cannot supply, such that we may pray as Augustine, Demand what You will, O Lord, and give what You demand.”
AMR
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ttruscott
Well-known member
IF GOD created us perfectly innocent with the ability to choose by free will to choose to become either perfectly good/holy or perfectly/eternally evil and
IF no one chose to be evil at all,
THEN heaven would have started at that moment to fulfill HIS purpose in creating us in HIS image, that is, the Heavenly Marriage.
We were not created to be dependant upon HIM but to be a righteous Bride for His Son.
Our free will is a spiritual necessity to keep GOD at arm's length from the creation of evil and to make our guilt over our sins absolutely real and no one's fault but ours. BUT...
since we are born sinners and enslaved to sin at our conception, we cannot have our free will experience of choosing to become evil in HIS eyes on earth so it must have been pre-earth in Sheol.
And to answer Why do men suffer?
Men suffer because they are sinners.
No innocent person suffers or dies.
Suffering and death prove sin.
Only the guilty suffer or die.
Did you never think of taking up a healthier hobby?
Bowling: there's a wholesome activity that doesn't command anyone to avoid covenantal disasters with wrathful gods.
In bowling, the more that are fallen, the better.
Stuart
iouae
Well-known member
John 1
1*In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2*The same was in the beginning with God.
3*All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
you got a problem with owls boy ? :chuckle:
iouae
Well-known member
iouae
Well-known member
You are right we deserve it. We also deserve to wake up on a bed of sticks, breathing air smelling of backside, our mouths tasting like an owl's nest, our skin covered with oozing sores, covered in parasites, with the prospect of starving another day - Oh wait, I was thinking of "Naked and Afraid".
What I meant to say is we DESERVE a lot worse.
Instead we will rise to a lovely breakfast, drive to work in our air conditioned car, arrive at work and get a coffee, check our email, do a few hours of work with no slave-master standing over us, go home to another big meal, watch some TV etc.
It is grace, grace and more grace that we are so blessed to live now, and not any time else.
We are truly blessed, but many people don't get to work everyday or eat meals and watch tv.
iouae
Well-known member
Do you mean they "erred from the faith"?
Christianity and Judaism allow for possessions, not for attachment to them. We have to be able to turn our backs and walk away from everything we own, at a moment's notice. And if this is the end time, then we will be tested on this issue.