ECT WHY DID PAUL HAVE AND UNTIMELY BIRTH , 1 COR 15:8 ?

[God's Truth]

Hi and we are a NEW CREATION in Christ and are not vines or branches and not an OLIVE TREE !!

dan p

Those are the ways Jesus wants to describe himself then that is the way.

Romans 11:17
Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root,

Romans 11:24 For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

 

[glorydaz]

The old law was not based on faith.

There were Jews who had faith and some Jews who did not have faith.

Galatians 3:12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."

:doh:

 

[JudgeRightly]

The old law was not based on faith.

I didn't say it was.

I said that faith was one of the requirements of the law.

Under the Mosaic law, faith was a work.

Under the gospel of the grace of God, faith is not a work.

There were Jews who had faith and some Jews who did not have faith.

And those who did not went to hell, because they did not keep the whole law.

Galatians 3:12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."

 

[God's Truth]

I didn't say it was.

I said that faith was one of the requirements of the law.

Under the Mosaic law, faith was a work.

Do you have scriptures for that?

God made the new covenant because it would require faith, UNLIKE the old covenant.

Under the gospel of the grace of God, faith is not a work.

Faith is a work, and it is dead without a right action work with it, a work that we are supposed to do, like have faith that Jesus' shed blood on the cross washes away our sins that we repent of doing. Now that is faith required for the new law.

And those who did not went to hell, because they did not keep the whole law.

No; all they had to do is the purification/ceremonial works of the law to stay in the covenant.

 

[DAN P]

Hi and do say that FAITH is a work and use Heb 11:4 to prove their proof and say when God say do THIS , and Abel offered a SACRIFICE !!

dan p

 

[God's Truth]

Hi and do say that FAITH is a work and use Heb 11:4 to prove their proof and say when God say do THIS , and Abel offered a SACRIFICE !!

dan p

That was before the old law.

 

[DAN P]

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, Dan. I was referring to the "due time" part.

As for the quotes you gave about untimely birth, I still don't really get it. But, I'm eager to hear what you have to say about it.

Hi glorydaz , and it says Jesus came at the right time as ALL OF Israel had been corrupted and were due to be set ASIDE as referenced in 2 Cor 3:13-15 and of many other verse , Luke 13:6-9 !!

Israel will be BORN AGAIN , Rom 11:26 at the end of the Great Tribulation and will be KINGS and PRIESTS IN THE MILLENNIUM , Ex 19:6 and in Rev 1:16 !!

Then the Gentiles that enter the Millennium ( 1000 years ) and are the Gentiles that will grafted into the Olive Tree Rom 11:17 !!

dan p

 

[God's Truth]

Hi glorydaz , and it says Jesus came at the right time as ALL OF Israel had been corrupted and were due to be set ASIDE as referenced in 2 Cor 3:13-15 and of many other verse , Luke 13:6-9 !!

Israel will be BORN AGAIN , Rom 11:26 at the end of the Great Tribulation and will be KINGS and PRIESTS IN THE MILLENNIUM , Ex 19:6 and in Rev 1:16 !!

Then the Gentiles that enter the Millennium ( 1000 years ) and are the Gentiles that will grafted into the Olive Tree Rom 11:17 !!

dan p

When Jesus comes again, it will be too late to be saved.
He will come not to bear sin.
He comes as a thief in the night and all better be ready.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Do you have scriptures for that?

You don't know Exodus 20:3?

God made the new covenant because it would require faith, UNLIKE the old covenant.

Not even close.

Faith is a work,

Faith WAS a work. Now faith has already been had, by Jesus Christ.

Sounds like you're a worker bee who wants to work for her salvation.

and it is dead without a right action work with it, a work that we are supposed to do, like have faith that Jesus' shed blood on the cross washes away our sins that we repent of doing. Now that is faith required for the new law.

Reading letters meant for people other than you and applying what is contained within to yourself is generally a terrible idea. Or would you like to share with us what son of Israel you are descended from?

No; all they had to do is the purification/ceremonial works of the law to stay in the covenant.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

 

[JudgeRightly]

When Jesus comes again, it will be too late to be saved.
He will come not to bear sin.
He comes as a thief in the night and all better be ready.

Sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[God's Truth]

Sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about.

Here are the scriptures:

Hebrew 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Luke 13:25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'


Did you hear that? When Jesus comes the heavens will disappear and the earth will be destroyed by fire. There won't be any people having a chance to repent.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Here are the scriptures:

Hebrew 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Luke 13:25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'


Did you hear that? When Jesus comes the heavens will disappear and the earth will be destroyed by fire. There won't be any people having a chance to repent.

Yup. Just as I thought. No idea what you're talking about.

 

[DAN P]

When Jesus comes again, it will be too late to be saved.
He will come not to bear sin.
He comes as a thief in the night and all better be ready.

Hi and why not produce a verse , for that CLAIM ??

And Israel will also be saved in Rom 11:26 !!

People will be saved in the Millennium , Rom 11:17-23 and these are Gentiles !!

dan p

 

[God's Truth]

Hi and why not produce a verse , for that CLAIM ??

You always ask for the scripture even when I give it.

Hebrew 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

And Israel will also be saved in Rom 11:26 !!

All Israel will be saved means no Jews are cut off forever.
It doesn't mean every single Jewish person will be saved.
Israel are all nations who get saved through Jesus Christ.

People will be saved in the Millennium , Rom 11:17-23 and these are Gentiles !!

dan p

When Jesus comes again he is NOT coming to bear sin. We are saved because Jesus intercedes for us. If he is coming for those waiting for him, then that means you must already be saved when he comes.

 

[Right Divider]

When Jesus comes again he is NOT coming to bear sin. We are saved because Jesus intercedes for us. If he is coming for those waiting for him, then that means you must already be saved when he comes.

No. We are saved because Jesus DIED for us and was RAISED again.

Once again, you get your doctrines from the wrong part of the Word of God.

 

[Derf]

Hi to all and 1 Cor 15:8 reads , And last of all He was seen by me also , as if ot were an UNTIMELY BIRTH !!

What doe and UNTIMELY BIRTH MEAN ?

What does a TIMELY BIRTH MEAN ?

How does it affect the 12 apostles ??

Does the MESSAGE CHANGE ??

This verse answers Rom 16:7 !!

And since ONLY was ABORTED the other were the BORN IN DUE TIME , and that means that the 12 apostles WERE NOT in the B O C !!

Let the debate begin ??

dan p

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. [1Co 15:4-8 KJV]

The thing that makes the most sense to me is that he was not around when Jesus was on earth, at least not old enough to be part of His earthly ministry. And if one characteristic of apostles was that they were with Jesus throughout His earthly ministry (21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. [Act 1:21-22 KJV]), Paul doesn't qualify. He's going through the list of those that had seen Jesus after His resurrection, and Paul hadn't, and had never met Jesus prior to His ascension as far as we know.

Why was he not around for Jesus' ministry? He might have been too young:
58 And cast [him] out of the city, and stoned [him]: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. [Act 7:58 KJV]

If Stephen died in 34 AD, and Jesus died in 30 AD (these are commonly accepted dates), then if Paul was a young man in 34 (he might have been a teenager still, and not old enough to participate in the stoning, which was probably 20 years minimum), then when Jesus died, he was only 15, perhaps, and when Jesus started His ministry, only 12, perhaps.

Jesus disciples were not old, for the most part. They might have been only teenagers when Jesus called them. But it seems unlikely that they were as young as 12.

Gamaliel is mentioned twice in scripture, once (Acts 5:34) prior to Stephen's stoning, and once by Paul, explaining that Gamaliel was his tutor (Acts 22:3). Could it be that the first time Gamaliel is mentioned, S(P)aul is still his pupil? Seems likely to me, and possibly Paul is the source of the information about Gamaliel's testimony in the verses following Acts 5:34, since the apostles had already been put out of the room.

I don't think the translation of "abortion" or "miscarriage" applies, though some give that option.

 

[Right Divider]

I don't think the translation of "abortion" or "miscarriage" applies, though some give that option.

What do you think that the Greek word "ἔκτρωμα" means?

Strongs lexicon says this about it:
ἔκτρωμα éktrōma, ek'-tro-mah; from a comparative of G1537 and τιτρώσκω titrṓskō (to wound); a miscarriage (abortion), i.e. (by analogy) untimely birth:—born out of due time.

Is Strong mistaken?

 

[Derf]

What do you think that the Greek word "ἔκτρωμα" means?

Strongs lexicon says this about it:
ἔκτρωμα éktrōma, ek'-tro-mah; from a comparative of G1537 and τιτρώσκω titrṓskō (to wound); a miscarriage (abortion), i.e. (by analogy) untimely birth:—born out of due time.

Is Strong mistaken?

No, Strong's says "(by analogy) untimely born:-born out of due time." I don't disagree with that at all. You can be "untimely" by being late as much as by being early.

The miscarriage/abortion picture doesn't fit the immediate context "Last of all He was seen by me...". He certainly presented himself humbly in the next verse, and some say it was like he was a premature birth, because he persecuted the church. I'm just not convinced.

 

[Right Divider]

No, Strong's says "(by analogy) untimely born:-born out of due time." I don't disagree with that at all. You can be "untimely" by being late as much as by being early.

You're putting the card before the horse.

The English Bible is translated FROM the Greek.

The miscarriage/abortion picture doesn't fit the immediate context "Last of all He was seen by me...". He certainly presented himself humbly in the next verse, and some say it was like he was a premature birth, because he persecuted the church. I'm just not convinced.

Paul's point is that he was saved apart from his kinsmen and before them. They will be born again into their kingdom per Ezekiel 36.

 

[Derf]

You're putting the card before the horse.

The English Bible is translated FROM the Greek.


Paul's point is that he was saved apart from his kinsmen and before them. They will be born again into their kingdom per Ezekiel 36.

Paul was comparing his experience with that of the other people that saw Jesus after His death, all of which were his kinsmen, and all of which saw Jesus prior to Paul. The passage offers no apparent distinction between the kingdom and the body of Christ.