Why "Conversion Therapy" Should Be Illegal

[Danoh]

Well, it should be! Now I do like behaviour modification, as it was the only psychology game in town when I went to school, but if I had my way, I would rather attempt to do in on a consent basis and see if I could get some subjects attracted to ducks.

Guess I am a bit class conscience?

Which reminds me of an old joke - "how many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? One, but it's a long process - and the light bulb's got to want to change."

:chuckle:

Speaking of ducks, there is much of great merit to Konrad Lorenz's - learned attraction - "imprint" findings.

 

[Danoh]

Instead of 'pray away the gay,' can't you just mock it away? Would that work?

How well has that worked on the many Pedophile Priests within your beloved RCC?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

It doesn't work and it's abusive:

The first five results on Google for "Does Conversion Therapy Work?"

https://www.livescience.com/25082-gay-conversion-therapy-facts.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstr...sion-therapy?utm_term=.tdVrmPql0N#.wkQJLo9BVN

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/...rs/201801/conversion-therapy-isnt-therapy-all

https://www.quora.com/Does-voluntary-gay-conversion-therapy-work



The following five are no more positive and given that the "practices" have been roundly condemned as not only quackery but harmful in accredited scientific circles and that's there's no credible evidence that homosexuals can be "cured" anyway then what justification is there for "therapy centers" to be open anywhere at all?

Good for New Hampshire to be the latest state to outlaw such abuse but unfortunately there's still places where it's legal for minors to be forced into what is nothing other than degrading and harmful "treatment".

How can that be acceptable to anyone?

\
Homosexuals suffer from a mental disorder. A good place to start would be with society not lying to them and telling them that they are normal.

As for therapy: What works is what works for alcoholics: Admitting you have a problem, and then finding a support group to help you remain chaste.

 

[Arthur Brain]

\
Homosexuals suffer from a mental disorder. A good place to start would be with society not lying to them and telling them that they are normal.

Society has moved away from the dark ages and accepts that people can naturally be homosexual. I wouldn't expect you to even consider that such people aren't "mentally ill".

As for therapy: What works is what works for alcoholics: Admitting you have a problem, and then finding a support group to help you remain chaste.

Alcoholics can still find happiness and companionship with a partner. You're effectively saying that homosexuals should be denied that. Still, at least you don't seem to give any credence to it being "cured".

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Society has moved away from the dark ages and accepts that people can naturally be homosexual. I wouldn't expect you to even consider that such people aren't "mentally ill".......

I did not say they are mentally ill. I said they suffer from a disorder, as most people actually do to one degree or another. There are lots of alcoholics who have stayed clean and sober for decades, God bless them. A homosexual can do the same equivalent.

And by the way, you are way wrong about society accepting this as normal. Only a few extremists think its normal along with the scared-to-death sell-outs in the medical community.
In fact, while many people think gay marriage should be "legal", they do not necessarily accept the behavior as normal. And when you take the entire world into account and not just westerners who have lost all sense or morality, in fact most people do not accept this as normal.

And BTW: Your references to the dark ages and such were unnecessary distractions meant to belittle my correct position on the subject.

.....Alcoholics can still find happiness and companionship with a partner. You're effectively saying that homosexuals should be denied that........

I'm sorry if nobody told you that life can be hard for some people. Some people are born without legs and arms, and worse. Some are born blind and deaf. We all have crosses to bear, some worse than others. Not having sex is a pretty mild cross to bear, or had you not considered that.

..... Still, at least you don't seem to give any credence to it being "cured"

I don't, that's right, but what is truly sad is that people like you hold out these extremist nonsense therapies as if they are what is offered, and nobody talks about real answers to help them with their disorder.

COURAGE - https://couragerc.org/

QUOTE
"Courage members are men and women who experience same-sex attractions and who have made a commitment to strive for chastity. They are inspired by the Gospel call to holiness and the Catholic Church’s beautiful teachings about the goodness and inherent purpose of human sexuality.

Through our apostolate, people who experience same-sex attraction receive pastoral support in the form of spiritual guidance, community prayer support, and fellowship.

5 GOALS OF COURAGE: The Five Goals were created by the members themselves, when Courage was founded. The goals are read at the start of each meeting and each member is called to practice them in daily life. Here are the Goals in their entirety:

1. To live chaste lives in accordance with the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching on homosexuality (Chastity);

2. To dedicate our entire lives to Christ through service to others, spiritual reading, prayer, meditation, individual spiritual direction, frequent attendance at Mass, and the frequent reception of the sacraments of Reconciliation and Holy Eucharist (Prayer and Dedication);

3. To foster a spirit of fellowship in which we may share with one another our thoughts and experiences, and so ensure that no one will have to face the problems of homosexuality alone (Fellowship);

4. To be mindful of the truth that chaste friendships are not only possible but necessary in a chaste Christian life; and to encourage one another in forming and sustaining these friendships (Support);

5. To live lives that may serve as good examples to others (Good Example/Role Model).

 

[Arthur Brain]

I did not say they are mentally ill. I said they suffer from a disorder, as most people actually do to one degree or another. There are lots of alcoholics who have stayed clean and sober for decades, God bless them. A homosexual can do the same equivalent.

You class it as a disorder, science doesn't. An alcoholic is suffering from an addiction, one that can be brought about by varying factors so the two aren't comparable. What you're suggesting is that a homosexual shouldn't be allowed or should abstain from any sort of romantic or intimate relationship with another.

And by the way, you are way wrong about society accepting this as normal. Only a few extremists think its normal along with the scared-to-death sell-outs in the medical community.
In fact, while many people think gay marriage should be "legal", they do not necessarily accept the behavior as normal. And when you take the entire world into account and not just westerners who have lost all sense or morality, in fact most people do not accept this as normal.

Well, no. That's just hyperbole taken to the next level CC. Most people who don't have hang ups over it accept it as part and parcel of humanity. Sure, there's still zealots in the West who would go so far to kill people for being gay but overall? Hardly, and nobody was "scared to death" in the medical community to declassify it as a mental disorder. Would you prefer the oh so moral approach of places like Uganda and Iran on the topic?

And BTW: Your references to the dark ages and such were unnecessary distractions meant to belittle my correct position on the subject.

No, but it's thankfully one that's been moved away from in the main.

I'm sorry if nobody told you that life can be hard for some people. Some people are born without legs and arms, and worse. Some are born blind and deaf. We all have crosses to bear, some worse than others. Not having sex is a pretty mild cross to bear, or had you not considered that.

I'm sorry if nobody told you that condescending, religious puritans don't really have any say in what people should or shouldn't be allowed to do outside of their own church. Pretty easy for you to lecture about what people should be allowed to have in life when you don't suffer from any of the aforementioned afflictions? Oh, and btw, having a relationship encompasses far more than just sex. Sex is just a facet of a loving relationship.

I don't, that's right, but what is truly sad is that people like you hold out these extremist nonsense therapies as if they are what is offered, and nobody talks about real answers to help them with their disorder.

Eh? You do realize that I think any sort of "conversion therapy" is nonsense as well, right? The only "help" you seem to offer people who are gay is to tell them that they should be brave enough not to have a romantic partner in their life.

COURAGE - https://couragerc.org/

QUOTE
"Courage members are men and women who experience same-sex attractions and who have made a commitment to strive for chastity. They are inspired by the Gospel call to holiness and the Catholic Church’s beautiful teachings about the goodness and inherent purpose of human sexuality.

Through our apostolate, people who experience same-sex attraction receive pastoral support in the form of spiritual guidance, community prayer support, and fellowship.

5 GOALS OF COURAGE: The Five Goals were created by the members themselves, when Courage was founded. The goals are read at the start of each meeting and each member is called to practice them in daily life. Here are the Goals in their entirety:

1. To live chaste lives in accordance with the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching on homosexuality (Chastity);

2. To dedicate our entire lives to Christ through service to others, spiritual reading, prayer, meditation, individual spiritual direction, frequent attendance at Mass, and the frequent reception of the sacraments of Reconciliation and Holy Eucharist (Prayer and Dedication);

3. To foster a spirit of fellowship in which we may share with one another our thoughts and experiences, and so ensure that no one will have to face the problems of homosexuality alone (Fellowship);

4. To be mindful of the truth that chaste friendships are not only possible but necessary in a chaste Christian life; and to encourage one another in forming and sustaining these friendships (Support);

5. To live lives that may serve as good examples to others (Good Example/Role Model).

If people want to live chaste lives for religious reasons then that's one thing. Their choice.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

You class it as a disorder, science doesn't.........

It was always classified as a disorder, until recently. There was not one, single, shred of evidence for the APA to change its classification. The APA is a political lobbying group, not some purist group of doctors, and they changed the classification for purely political reasons, not medical. They are frauds and liars and should all lose their medical licenses. Only an idiot thinks that the DSM no longer has same-sex attraction listed as a disorder for medical reasons. Good grief. Wake up.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

......If people want to live chaste lives for religious reasons then that's one thing. Their choice.

Thats like saying alcoholics want to remain sober for religious reasons. How demeaning of you.

Just because Courage is a religious group does not mean this is soley for religious reasons. These people recognize their problem, and thank God they are among the few who have not been infected and destroyed by your ilk.

I suppose if the Church feeds the hungry its because people only want to eat for religious reasons. You're a real sad piece of work man. You have no sense of morality, or right & wrong.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Thats like saying alcoholics want to remain sober for religious reasons. How demeaning of you.

Of course it isn't. An alcoholic can get drink under control and have one of the very things in life that's so important and integral to humans, a loving relationship with another person. The very thing you say that a homosexual should absolutely abstain from.

Just because Courage is a religious group does not mean this is soley for religious reasons. These people recognize their problem, and thank God they are among the few who have not been infected and destroyed by your ilk.

How many are living a lie and living lonely lives because of what you think homosexual people should deny themselves?

I suppose if the Church feeds the hungry its because people only want to eat for religious reasons. You're a real sad piece of work man. You have no sense of morality, or right & wrong.

If only the "religious" were more concerned with the practical needs of people instead of sitting in pious judgement of them. Plenty people on here would deny the less well off in society even basic welfare so spare me.

 

[Arthur Brain]

It was always classified as a disorder, until recently. There was not one, single, shred of evidence for the APA to change its classification. The APA is a political lobbying group, not some purist group of doctors, and they changed the classification for purely political reasons, not medical. They are frauds and liars and should all lose their medical licenses. Only an idiot thinks that the DSM no longer has same-sex attraction listed as a disorder for medical reasons. Good grief. Wake up.

Yeah, sure, it all came about just as you say...

Wake up yourself...

:doh:

 

[Idolater]

...
QUOTE
"Courage members are men and women who . . . have made a commitment to strive for chastity....

This part is just Catholic. We are all called to chastity. Chastity is LGBT and straight, single and married, laity and clergy, male, female, and LGBT---we are all called to be chaste.

Just fyi, fwiw.

Not you CC, since I know you already know all this!

 

[Danoh]

This part is just Catholic. We are all called to chastity. Chastity is LGBT and straight, single and married, laity and clergy, male, female, and LGBT---we are all called to be chaste.

Just fyi, fwiw.

Not you CC, since I know you already know all this!

Because you're an idol worshipper (Roman Catholicism) you wouldn't know that in Scripture, Catholic Crusader's rabidly blind idol worship of that life long financial and political fraud presently in the White House, is considered spiritual fornication and an abomination in the sight of the God of Scripture.

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[MennoSota]

Because you're an idol worshipper (Roman Catholicism) you wouldn't know that in Scripture, Catholic Crusader's rabidly blind idol worship of that life long financial and political fraud presently in the White House, is considered spiritual fornication and an abomination in the sight of the God of Scripture.

Rom. 5:6-8.

We do not have to support President Trump or his policies. We should be diligent against injustice at any level. We must also recognize that God raises up both good and bad leaders according to his sovereign plan. Read Habakkuk 1 to see how God raised up the most wicked nation in order to discipline his chosen people.

 

[Stripe]

If Darwinism is true, shouldn't natural selection have wiped out all the homos, if it's true there is a genetic component to perversion?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

 

[Danoh]

We do not have to support President Trump or his policies. We should be diligent against injustice at any level. We must also recognize that God raises up both good and bad leaders according to his sovereign plan. Read Habakkuk 1 to see how God raised up the most wicked nation in order to discipline his chosen people.

2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Brace yourself, the following just might sting a bit...

I would suggest to YOU that you read ancient ISRAEL's Prophet: Habakkuk's words TO ANCIENT ISRAEL in light of THEIR Prophet: Daniel, in Daniel 2.

Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. 9:12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem. 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

The U.S. never was, nor is not, the nation Israel.

Even that fraud presently in the White House knows that much.

Further, of the five kingdoms IN THE MIDDLE EAST that Daniel spoke of that would rise up AGAINST ISRAEL in Daniel 2 and in Daniel 11, only four of those MIDDLE EASTERN Kingdoms did so, the 4th one having been the Mighty Roman Empire, John 19:10,11, the last one - AGAINST ISRAEL: ALSO IN THE MIDDLE EAST - has yet to rise up.

Daniel 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

So please spare me the chosen nation nonsense about the U.S.

The U.S. is and has always been merely one more, vain, secular nation on its own course, which is why the hypocrites within the so called "right" support someone like Donald Trump: who built a Tower in his own name, in homage to his ever preening vanity, via immigrant workers he then proceeded to stiff out of millions of dollars, because the man is a life-long, low life just like his Tammany Hall corrupt old man before him was, who followed in Trump's equally corrupt grandfather's steps before him: a grandfather who made his fortune as owner of a Brothel, in which he also bought and sold politicians, just like his son and grand son would do, one day.

Per Scripture, where is the God of Scripture?

Neither raising up nations, nor punishing one while blessing another, nor calling for the killing of adulterors, or what have you, other than in the minds of Bible verse blenders out to twist a thing to the service of whatever their pet peeve happens to be.

For per Scripture, God is now in Romans 5:6-8.

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling THE WORLD unto himself, NOT imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word OF RECONCILIATION." 2 Corinthians 5:19

 

[Danoh]

If Darwinism is true, shouldn't natural selection have wiped out all the homos, if it's true there is a genetic component to perversion?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

That would be Stripe-ism.

:chuckle:

 

[MennoSota]

2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Brace yourself, the following just might sting a bit...

I would suggest to YOU that you read ancient ISRAEL's Prophet: Habakkuk's words TO ANCIENT ISRAEL in light of THEIR Prophet: Daniel, in Daniel 2.

Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. 9:12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem. 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.

The U.S. never was, nor is not, the nation Israel.

Even that fraud presently in the White House knows that much.

Further, of the five kingdoms IN THE MIDDLE EAST that Daniel spoke of that would rise up AGAINST ISRAEL in Daniel 2 and in Daniel 11, only four of those MIDDLE EASTERN Kingdoms did so, the 4th one having been the Mighty Roman Empire, John 19:10,11, the last one - AGAINST ISRAEL: ALSO IN THE MIDDLE EAST - has yet to rise up.

Daniel 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

So please spare me the chosen nation nonsense about the U.S.

The U.S. is and has always been merely one more, vain, secular nation on its own course, which is why the hypocrites within the so called "right" support someone like Donald Trump: who built a Tower in his own name, in homage to his ever preening vanity, via immigrant workers he then proceeded to stiff out of millions of dollars, because the man is a life-long, low life just like his Tammany Hall corrupt old man before him was, who followed in Trump's equally corrupt grandfather's steps before him: a grandfather who made his fortune as owner of a Brothel, in which he also bought and sold politicians, just like his son and grand son would do, one day.

Per Scripture, where is the God of Scripture?

Neither raising up nations, nor punishing one while blessing another, nor calling for the killing of adulterors, or what have you, other than in the minds of Bible verse blenders out to twist a thing to the service of whatever their pet peeve happens to be.

For per Scripture, God is now in Romans 5:6-8.

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling THE WORLD unto himself, NOT imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word OF RECONCILIATION." 2 Corinthians 5:19

LOL, I never said the US was the chosen Israel. I said that Habakkuk 1 shows us that God raises up wicked kings and kingdoms to accomplish His will. Even the wicked people are used by God to accomplish His perfect will (ie, Donald Trump is president, for good or ill, by God's ordained will just as every other leader is raised up or torn down by God's will.).

 

[Kit the Coyote]

If Darwinism is true, shouldn't natural selection have wiped out all the homos, if it's true there is a genetic component to perversion?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Not really, individual reproduction is not necessary if the trait in question helps the genetic line in some way. One of the genetic groups suspected of being involved in passing homosexual traits is also connected to high fertility in women. Thus families that tend to produce gay males also tend to have more children overall. Since homosexual males not burdened with raising their own children can help to support those larger families overall, they increase the chances of their family genes being passed on.

 

[Stripe]

Not really, individual reproduction is not necessary if the trait in question helps the genetic line in some way. One of the genetic groups suspected of being involved in passing homosexual traits is also connected to high fertility in women. Thus families that tend to produce gay males also tend to have more children overall. Since homosexual males not burdened with raising their own children can help to support those larger families overall, they increase the chances of their family genes being passed on.

Sounds like practically anything could be passed on.

The only more destructive thing I can think of would be suicide.

"The genetic traits of suicidal people are linked with fertility. Thus the mothers of people who jump off buildings have more kids overall."

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

 

[Stripe]

"As people who have killed themselves do not burden their families, the family members who do not can be better supported, increasing the chances of their family genes being passed on."

You can make up any old story to justify such nonsense.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk