Who's Really Saved?

[jamie]

So to Lilstu, you believe then neither Moses, Elijah, nor Jesus is yet saved?

In John 3:7 Jesus explained that people must be born again, not of the flesh but born of the Father. Jesus is the firstborn of the dead in terms of being born again of the Spirit.

If Jesus is the firstborn of the dead (Colossians 1:18) then Moses, Elijah nor anyone else preceded him.

No one other than Jesus has been born again. We are conceived as spirit beings but not yet born. Our eternal life is held in trust for us by Jesus (1 John 5:11).

When we are born again our eternal life will be forever inherent.

 

[JonathanSpires]

True. Moses was not resurrected. However, the Bible recorded his body as being claimed by the angel. Elijah was not resurrected. However, the Bible recorded him being raptured into heaven by way of the whirlwind. Note, however, resurrection and being born again of the spirit are two different things.

Paul asked the disciples in Ephesus if they had received the Holy Ghost, and when they said they'd never heard of the Holy Ghost he asked under what doctrine they were baptized. Baptism is the point in which one is born again of the spirit, not resurrected, but because of their faith worked out in obedience they are gifted with salvation as evidenced by the Holy Ghost.



[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

 

[JonathanSpires]

Nikolai_42 if they had asked the question and had not been baptized as commanded would they have been saved?


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

 

[nikolai_42]

Nikolai_42 if they had asked the question and had not been baptized as commanded would they have been saved?


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

That's separating what I see as all a part of an outworking of one thing being worked in :

Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Acts 8:35-39

I take it that the word preached worked into the eunuch the desire to be baptized - not simply reading a text and wanting to fulfill a command. It was what was worked in being worked out. Otherwise, his joy is out of place. His faith was confirmed - not his obedience.

 

[JonathanSpires]

Certainly the faith worked on the inside first. But still the outside work was needed, you say as evidence I say as evidence and obedience. If it had not been needed then Christ wouldn't have commanded it to be done.


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

 

[nikolai_42]

Certainly the faith worked on the inside first. But still the outside work was needed, you say as evidence I say as evidence and obedience. If it had not been needed then Christ wouldn't have commanded it to be done.


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Anything that is not of faith is sin. Any command outside of the obedience of faith is (at best) futile.

 

[JonathanSpires]

So two questions nikolai_42

1. Was the faith of the 400 prophets of Baal sin?

2. Was Job's preventative burnt offerings sin?


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

 

[nikolai_42]

So two questions nikolai_42

1. Was the faith of the 400 prophets of Baal sin?

2. Was Job's preventative burnt offerings sin?


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

The faith of the prophets of Ba'al? It was idolatry, not faith. Not the faith spoken of. Faith is only as good as its object. So Job's action was in faith. Did it benefit his family? I don't know. Cain offered an offering as well but it wasn't accepted while his brother's was.

 

[Lilstu]

True. Moses was not resurrected. However, the Bible recorded his body as being claimed by the angel. Elijah was not resurrected. However, the Bible recorded him being raptured into heaven by way of the whirlwind. Note, however, resurrection and being born again of the spirit are two different things.

Paul asked the disciples in Ephesus if they had received the Holy Ghost, and when they said they'd never heard of the Holy Ghost he asked under what doctrine they were baptized. Baptism is the point in which one is born again of the spirit, not resurrected, but because of their faith worked out in obedience they are gifted with salvation as evidenced by the Holy Ghost.



[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

Did Enoch or Elijah go to Heaven?
Let’s ask Jesus.
John 3:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

 

[JonathanSpires]

To Nikolai_42 the 400 prophets did indeed have faith. It was faith in idols yes, but faith nevertheless. Don't rewrite or redefine faith. No it wasn't faith in any good thing, but it was faith. I shouldn't gamble because that's putting FAITH in something bad.

The purpose of your faith is not for the attainment of anything here on earth; not a family or a house or anything. It should solely be a witness and a testimony to God that you believe in Him. Even David who had the word of the Lord by Nathan tell him he would lose the child of Bathsheba fasted and prayed hoping God would take pity but knowing he would lose his son.

Yet David was rewarded with king Solomon and Jesus the Christ.

Job also was rewarded with double that which he had lost.

I believe you may have understood the top level of faith spoken of in these scriptures and have not understood the true purpose of faith. It's not to gain or keep things, but to prove and strengthen our relationship with God.


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

 

[quip]

consideration and evidence of the scriptures. I can not accept an answer that is not hermeneutically sound.

My question in regards to salvation:

How can you tell if someone is living in salvation?(if they're saved)
For an example,if you're walking down the street and you meet someone and begin a conversation, from that conversation what tools of discernment can you use to determine whether this person is living in salvation or not?

Jonathan

Why?

Why not instead seek for mutual commonalities while understanding the differences of others instead of promulgating judgmental differences.

Otherwise, this is nothing more than a self projecting, self-righteous ego trip...i.e. I'm special thus how can I identify the similarly exalted (or avoid/condemn the ones not identically 'blessed' as I) :sherlock:

 

[JonathanSpires]

To Lilstu 2 kings 2.11 tells the story. Elijah was taken up as was Enoch. Jesus rose and ascended.


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

 

[nikolai_42]

To Nikolai_42 the 400 prophets did indeed have faith. It was faith in idols yes, but faith nevertheless. Don't rewrite or redefine faith. No it wasn't faith in any good thing, but it was faith. I shouldn't gamble because that's putting FAITH in something bad.

The problem there is that it strips Paul's statement that anything that is not of faith of sin (if the prophets of Ba'al actually did have faith, then it wasn't sin if we take a generic definition of the term in scripture) and they could please God by their faith (because they had it...per Hebrews 11:6) and that Enoch simply had to believe (whatever) to please God and be translated without seeing death. It skews the understanding of sin and of pleasing God. Again...the object is all important and is always either stated or implied to be in God Himself to be pleasing and to be good (or idolatry can be okay...just misunderstanding instead of sin).

The purpose of your faith is not for the attainment of anything here on earth; not a family or a house or anything. It should solely be a witness and a testimony to God that you believe in Him. Even David who had the word of the Lord by Nathan tell him he would lose the child of Bathsheba fasted and prayed hoping God would take pity but knowing he would lose his son.

I wouldn't go quite that far...simply because earthly recognition (while certainly not the goal) is intended to encourage us in our faith. So it may be that we will receive much now AND in the life to come.

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,
Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
Luke 18:29-30

Again...to be clear...this is not prosperity gospel in any sense. We are not owed this, nor is it automatically received by the faithful - but to exclude it is not right either. God gives good gifts to His children as He wills.

Yet David was rewarded with king Solomon and Jesus the Christ.

And the loss of his son (an earthly gift) was a punishment. So an earthly reward or punishment can be linked with faith. Though I agree it need not be.

Job also was rewarded with double that which he had lost.

If you say that to contrast the loss of David's son with the gain of Job (and yet both were men of faith), I agree. But I also see some connection with God's response to man's faith or lack of it. David's loss was a direct result of his lack of faith (though he was a man after God's own heart). Job's gain was from something that went well beyond him, but out of which he grew in faith (and the Lord gave abundantly in his physical wealth).

I believe you may have understood the top level of faith spoken of in these scriptures and have not understood the true purpose of faith. It's not to gain or keep things, but to prove and strengthen our relationship with God.

I agree - that is not the purpose. But there is that which God provides the faithful even on earth. The Psalmist said he had never seen a righteous man begging bread. It isn't how much we have...it's what we do with what we do have.

 

[JonathanSpires]

I'm glad we've had so much discussion on repentance, faith, sacrifice, obedience, and works. However, I have an honest and harmless question that I don't feel I've been given a straight answer to.

I believe my question is important for several reasons. If you don't agree my question to be important or necessary you are invited to ignore it.

For those who may have the mental bandwidth to consider my question with the knowledge and understanding of the scriptures as proof, please do answer the question:

How do we know if one is saved or is living in salvation or not? How can we tell even if we don't know this person's deeds? What do the scriptures of both the Old and New Testament say on this question?


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

 

[nikolai_42]

I'm glad we've had so much discussion on repentance, faith, sacrifice, obedience, and works. However, I have an honest and harmless question that I don't feel I've been given a straight answer to.

I believe my question is important for several reasons. If you don't agree my question to be important or necessary you are invited to ignore it.

For those who may have the mental bandwidth to consider my question with the knowledge and understanding of the scriptures as proof, please do answer the question:

How do we know if one is saved or is living in salvation or not? How can we tell even if we don't know this person's deeds? What do the scriptures of both the Old and New Testament say on this question?


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

I don't believe there is an infallible way to determine this. But I would also question that we need to. At a certain point we need to accept a person's confession and leave the rest to God. If a man confesses Jesus Christ as Lord having come in the flesh (Romans 10:9, I Cor 12:3 and I John 4:2-3), loves the brethren (I John 2:10, I John 3:14-16, John 15:13 and John 13:34-35) and has a life that is inclined towards holiness - and repentance when sin is found (I John 2:1 and I John 3:9) then it is a reliable indication that that man is born of God.

 

[False Prophet]

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Look at the sower of seed. The seed that falls on rocky soil does not grow. The seed that falls along the road side is plucked up by the birds. The seed that is sown among the weeds is choked out, and does not survive. The seed that is sown in good soil grows and sprouts. The seed is the word of God, and the soil is the condition of men's hearts.

 

[JonathanSpires]

False Prophet I'm not sure what statement you are addressing, but not all who "endure to the end" will be saved. Also, you've misapplied that parable.

Revelation speaks to those who endured the several judgements of the last days. Though they "endured to the end", they wouldn't repent of their evil works and they were ultimately slain by God's wrath. (Rev. 9.20)

Enduring to the end as a child of God is much different from enduring to the end as a child of rebellion or a child of ignorance.

So the statement that those who endure to the end will be saved is not a true statement. Please quote and apply the scriptures properly. If you do not understand where to apply the scripture, don't quote them. Instead study and learn.

In Mt. 24, Christ is speaking to his disciples, that is those who believe in him and are enduring in him. He was speaking about the torments of the end time, especially of the false prophet who would deceive many, causing iniquity to abound and love to wax cold. This "enduring" would be necessary for those suffering from the works of the false prophet. Mt. 24.11-13



[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

I'm glad we've had so much discussion on repentance, faith, sacrifice, obedience, and works. However, I have an honest and harmless question that I don't feel I've been given a straight answer to.

I believe my question is important for several reasons. If you don't agree my question to be important or necessary you are invited to ignore it.

For those who may have the mental bandwidth to consider my question with the knowledge and understanding of the scriptures as proof, please do answer the question:

How do we know if one is saved or is living in salvation or not? How can we tell even if we don't know this person's deeds? What do the scriptures of both the Old and New Testament say on this question?


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

With all due respect, you seem to be trying to generate attention and lack regard for good answers you've already been given. It's intuitively obvious the Holy Spirit is not discerned in other people by any physical sense. God does not put a Hindu dot on anybody's forehead. Just as we are not omniscient to see the future, as is the Lord, we are neither omniscient to discern the hearts of others as God can. Again, the Bible has stated by our confession and our fruits, though, even in these things, there is no certainty in short order, since these things can be feigned, the way an emotionally dead sociopath feigns, mimics, emotions, the best of them able to fool everybody, for a time, anyway.

Bottom line, you can't and will never have God's sure and explicit knowledge of the hearts of others, and you are not, therefore, to summarily judged anybody's salvation, even be seeking to, as ultimate judgement is God's, alone. You're just barking at the wind, ostensibly seeking some sort of nonexistant litmus paper that reads invisible spirits, and, if others here lack mental breadth, why don't you, who one must presume has mental breadth wide as a river others lack (to offer that criticism of everybody else), and if you're not the usual message board legend in your own mind, please spit out how you run into somebody in the produce aisle of the supermarket and determine their salvation. I'm void such mental bandwidth and need real help, then. Has it however briefly crossed your mind you're filled with criticism of answers you received, offering nothing, nada, yourself? I, for one, am dying to see some expansive bandwidth around here, would often settle for just a little real spirituality or human decency.

In that vein, as painful as it must be for you, it couldn't hurt to give some people who've gone to the trouble of giving you some good and scriptural answers a little thank you. Or is that not in your "Christian" bandwidth? Lastly, if you want Old Testament answers, don't ask questions about New Testament Christianity.

 

[Nick M]

How can you tell if someone is living in salvation?(if they're saved)

Jonathan

By what comes out of their mouth.

 

[JonathanSpires]

To WonderfulLordJesus, a few things in actuality:

To every scripturally supported answer I have responded with thanks and a scripturally supported response.

I in kind have offered answers to those who have questioned my premises on which my answers are based.

I have been more focused on how God would want us to deal with others, which is the motive of my question and NOT to know hearts as God does. I don't claim that ability nor would I seek it(for various reasons).

I am convinced there is a solid answer to this question that has clearly frustrated you by evidence of your inability to acknowledge all of the scriptural discussions that have conspired heretofore. Please dispute it if you can grasp it;

All persons on earth alive, Greeks(which God hath made), Hindu(which God hath made and Christ hath ministered to), Christians(which God hath made), and Atheist(which God hath made) alike; they are all of them under salvation. We can tell because they're alive. Both the Old and New Testaments tell us that the world is the Lords and that it is by his grace and mercy that we are saved. So they're actually all saved.


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