Who's Really Saved?

[Tambora]

So you believe that the scriptures tell us that no matter what we do in this life, we will all be saved from the second death because Christ died on the cross?

Because He was the only sinless substitute that could.


Titus 3:5 KJV
(5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;




Romans 3:20-21 KJV
(20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
(21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 

[nikolai_42]

If Christ's shedding of blood is enough for me to be saved, do I need to be baptized? Do I need to confess him to be Lord? Do I need to pray?


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

I apologize for the quick post, but I have very little time - just had to respond, though. The isolation of confession, baptism and the blood of Christ is problematic for me. When God instructed the people to put the blood of the lamb on their doorposts so that the angel of death would pass over them, the effective agent in that salvation was the blood. Not the work of the individual - however, the confession of the rightness of the command and the obedience to God was evident. In other words, one who is covered by the blood (in the sense of the passover) confesses Christ by word and deed (which includes baptism). No man can call Jesus Christ Lord except by the Holy Spirit. All these things - these works - follow after in the life of one born again. As Paul told the Ephesians, they are good works we are created unto in Christ. Christ Himself is made unto us wisdom AND righteousness AND sanctification AND redemption that no flesh should glory in His presence. It really is all Him - but we need to bear fruit as evidence of that change. Fruit unto holiness and (in the end) eternal life. Not that we are made sinless, but that we are freed from its clutches. We may fall, but the trend of our lives (if we are saved) is necessarily "Godward". Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith...

(Apologies for not including scripture references - I will do so at a later time if requested).

 

[JonathanSpires]

And to WonderfulLord Jesus, these are deeds; I agree with you these can be conclusive to our dispensation in or out of salvation. However here I'm posing a different question.

What about discerning salvation outside of knowing the deeds of another? For what man knows all the deeds of another? Please also list some Old Testament scripture as the New Testament is an amplification of the Old Testament.


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

 

[Robert Pate]

Hi,

It's a privilege to be a part of this community and have the opportunity to explore your personal thoughts on Word and ways of God. I have a question regarding the Theological Principle of Salvation. Please answer with consideration and evidence of the scriptures. I can not accept an answer that is not hermeneutically sound.

My question in regards to salvation:

How can you tell if someone is living in salvation?(if they're saved)
For an example,if you're walking down the street and you meet someone and begin a conversation, from that conversation what tools of discernment can you use to determine whether this person is living in salvation or not?

Jonathan

John encourages us to "Try the Spirits to see if they are of God" 1 John 4:1.

Are they Christ and Gospel centered, or is it all about them?

 

[JonathanSpires]

To Robert Pate, I agree we should try the spirit. I wonder what this looked like in the O.T.?


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

 

[Lilstu]

So [MENTION=18573]Lilstu[/MENTION], no one then is saved? What then is eternal life?


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

If one is saved from death to eternal life, then no one is saved until after the resurrection.

 

[JonathanSpires]

To nikolai_42: If the work of those Israelites who obeyed(work) the command of God was not an effective agent, how did the blood get upon the door? Did the lamb slay itself?

"Faith without works is dead" implying faith with "works" is life.


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

 

[JonathanSpires]

So to Lilstu, you believe then neither Moses, Elijah, nor Jesus is yet saved?


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

 

[nikolai_42]

To nikolai_42: If the work of those Israelites who obeyed(work) the command of God was not an effective agent, how did the blood get upon the door? Did the lamb slay itself?

"Faith without works is dead" implying faith with "works" is life.


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 16:30-31

It wasn't the act that saved (though it was necessary), it was the faith :

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:4-5

To take the killing any further would require that we slay Christ ourselves to be saved....

Gotta run.

 

[Lilstu]

So to Lilstu, you believe then neither Moses, Elijah, nor Jesus is yet saved?


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

You are asking me to respond to a category of apples and oranges.
Moses and Elijah are dead. I assume God intends to resurrect them. When they resurrect to eternal life they will have been saved.

 

[Tambora]

Your filth is washed away not only by Christ's blood.

Yes, it is.
For there is no remission of sin without blood.


The wages of sin is death.
Any sin, no matter how minute.
Sin made you dead.

And as the law shows, it is the sinless substitute that paid the price of death for your sins (not you).

Christ did not die on the cross to make bad men better (for we are all unworthy and still sin).
Christ died on the cross to make dead men live.

 

[JonathanSpires]

Elijah did not die. He was raptured in a whirlwind as was Enoch. Jesus was also taken in a cloud. The body of Moses Jude records was also taken by divine means via the archangel Michael as recorded in Jude.

These things happened before Christ's resurrection and before the resurrection of the saints at the opening of the fifth seal and the seventh trumpet. So there are in fact souls that are resurrected and saved before which ever resurrection to which you were referring.


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

 

[Lilstu]

Elijah did not die. He was raptured in a whirlwind as was Enoch. Jesus was also taken in a cloud. The body of Moses Jude records was also taken by divine means via the archangel Michael as recorded in Jude.

These things happened before Christ's resurrection and before the resurrection of the saints at the opening of the fifth seal and the seventh trumpet. So there are in fact souls that are resurrected and saved before which ever resurrection to which you were referring.


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

The Dead Are Unconscious In Their Grave.

So what happens when you die?
Do you go to Heaven?
Or do you lay unconscious in the grave waiting to be resurrected on the last day?

The Bible teaches that the dead are unconscious.

Psalm 13:3 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
3 Consider and answer me, O Lord my God;
Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

Psalm 6:5 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
5 For there is no mention of You in death;
In Sheol who will give You thanks?

Psalm 146:4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

Daniel 12:2
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Remember Lazarus’ sister Martha? She understood that Lazarus was dead in the grave and he would remain in the grave until the last day when Messiah would come and the dead would be raised.
John 11:23-24 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
23 Jesus *said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

So where are your Scriptures that say the dead go to Heaven?

 

[Tambora]

"Faith without works is dead" implying faith with "works" is life.

Ahhh, but what works would that be?
The works of the law.
For the very chapter of which James says that faith without works is dead, he is speaking of the law.

James 2:10 KJV
(10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.​

A stark contrast to what Paul teaches.

Galatians 2:16 KJV
(16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.​

.

Galatians 2:21 KJV
(21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.​

Romans 3:19-21 KJV​

(19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.​

(20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.​

(21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;



Galatians 3:11-12 KJV
(11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
(12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


​

 

[JonathanSpires]

To Lilstu ok so the revelation of Jesus given to John says

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the sounds of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

A few things implied here,

One, that these dead souls can speak

Two, that they're in a conscious state as they are aware that their deaths have not been avenged.

Exegesis teaches understanding the scriptures through textual and contextual criticism which can lead us to a more full understanding of the words "dead" and "sleep".



[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

 

[Lilstu]

To Lilstu ok so the revelation of Jesus given to John says

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the sounds of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

A few things implied here,

One, that these dead souls can speak

Two, that they're in a conscious state as they are aware that their deaths have not been avenged.

Exegesis teaches understanding the scriptures through textual and contextual criticism which can lead us to a more full understanding of the words "dead" and "sleep".



[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

Do you take the book of Revelation as being literal? I don't and I suspect many others do not.

 

[JonathanSpires]

To Tambora,

Both James and Paul are in fact endorsing he following of the law. The difference in the scriptures you've quoted are thus:

James saying if you follow the law, but still do harm to someone, thus failing to follow the spirit of the law, then you have missed the point of every law.

Paul saying to the Gentile audience who's laws in some ways differed from those of Judaism, simply following law does not lead to following Christ. You'd still be missing following His doctrines, namely the doctrine of faith and the doctrine of obedience(of the mosaic law i.e. the witnessing of the law and the prophets)

We need the law. Hence God gives us the Torah and Christ says render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

 

[PureX]

How can you tell if someone is living in salvation?(if they're saved)
For an example,if you're walking down the street and you meet someone and begin a conversation, from that conversation what tools of discernment can you use to determine whether this person is living in salvation or not?

Jonathan

Why would we be asking such a question? We are not in charge of anyone else's salvation. That's between them and God.

 

[JonathanSpires]

Our sins are forgiven when we repent. They are also in that time forgotten as uttered by the prophet Ezekiel in Eze. 18.26-32.


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?

 

[JonathanSpires]

To PureX we are not in charge of anyone's salvation. True. We are, however, charged to go and preach the gospel, to convert souls to Christ, to cast our demons in the name of Christ, to offer salvation to our brothers and sisters who may be lost in darkness, anger, sadness, rebellion, or ignorance.

We leave their choice to come to God between them and Him, but we definitely have a role in getting them to know that he is here for them, and is calling them. This is for those who have not heard or have heard and have not hearkened.

The question is how we discern the need to assume this role.


[emoji119]?It is through Him that we live, move, and have our being![emoji119]?