ECT Which Gospel Preached During the Tribulation Period?

[Jacob]

The idea is formulated around human responsiblity and human moral accountability before God. Adam was created a moral agent, responsible and accountable to live according to God's commands and moral demands. This was a "covenant" established in the garden, and it is defined as a covenant of "works" because Adam was responsible and accountable to act according to God's commands, lest he die. Adam's actions (works) were the cause of his being consigned to a death sentence.

What if a person does not accept the words of Jesus?

Deuteronomy 18:19 'It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.

John 5:47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

Hebrews 2:1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.

Hebrews 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,

Hebrews 2:3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,

Hebrews 2:4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.

 

[Jacob]

No, death is not a perpetual work. Death is the result of Adam's disobedient works. A guilty death sentence was imposed upon Adam, because Adam committed the crime of disobedience. And that disobedience was defined by God's Law.

When I use the word "Law" I am refering to the commands of God to the nation of Israel through Moses.

Which commands of God should we disobey now?

Revelation 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Matthew 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Matthew 5:19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Nang]

Yes.? You mean the promise of salvation by faith?

Yes.

If the law came later, how is it a reiteration of law? You don't get what I am saying.

The Covenant of Works (Law) came before the Covenant of Grace. For if the Covenant of Works (Law) had not been broken by A&E there would have been no need of another covenant or promise of grace from God.

The Mosaic Covenant (formal Law) came after the promises of grace made to Eve and the promises of grace made to Abraham.

The Ten Commandments are an expanded version of the Law as was given to Adam in the garden, which violation of course, preceded the necessity of a saving grace from God.

I know this is new thinking for you, but Scripture is clear. There are two covenants. One of Law and one of Grace. All persons live or die under one or the other.

Nand

 

[Jacob]

If there had been no Law, and Adam had not acted against any Law given, there would have been no legal basis for God to declare Adam guilty and deserving of death.

". . . Sin is not imputed when there is no law." Romans 5:13

This Law as Paul relates it, if you read Romans, is in Moses. He is talking about since the fall, not to include the fall and or before the fall.

 

[Jacob]

Since Adam is held guilty and responsible for death (Romans 5:12), then we must conclude Adam sinned, and since Adam's sin brought a legal death penalty, we must conclude according to Scripture, that Adam indeed acted to break God's commands and Law. And since God's commands included a provision of life if the commands were met ("tree of life"), then the reader of Holy Scripture can conclude there was all the elements of a covenant between God and man in place in the garden.

Yes Adam sinned, but the law had not come yet.

Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

You are saying that sin is transgression of the law, so if we do away with the law we don't sin anymore. This is how you find your freedom.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

You seem to think that in the garden "the horrid law had a place". But Adam really did have a choice, whether you call it law or not. And there were consequences. Just as with the law. Are you saying there are no consequences for sin now?

Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

 

[Nang]

When I use the word "Law" I am refering to the commands of God to the nation of Israel through Moses.

O.K.

Which commands of God should we disobey now?

None.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Matthew 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Matthew 5:19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

This describes how the Christian, who lives by faith in Jesus Christ, and who is now under the Covenant of Grace, is to live.

The Law is never abrogated. The fate of the sinner is one of pardon by faith in Christ, and his life is changed to one of thankfulness and obedience due to love of God's Word and commands. This new obedience, in the Holy Spirit, to the moral laws of God is called living the "Law of Christ."

Scripture says the faith of the believer, in fact, establishes the Law. Romans 3:31

Christians willingly live according to the good moral laws of God by faith in the righteousness of Christ; thankful for the promises of grace, and not in hopes of meriting God's favor by their works.

Nang

 

[Jacob]

The death sentence imposed by God upon Adam was a legal consequence, according to Law.

But why do you say there was Law before the covenant that brought the Law?

This was the Law of creation that was formalized by God through the agency of Moses.

?

It is defined as the Mosaic Covenant, which is no different than the Covenant of Works except it is more detailed to further reveal the extent of human sins to mankind, and purposed to draw men to their need of a Savior.

? The Law is only a part of the Covenant of Works? Where do you get this Covenant of Works?

Yes, the formal and more detailed Decalogue came later, but when there are Godly commands, there is Law.

Are you one to say we are not without law now? For we have commands that we are to be obedient to! Why do we separate commands and choose that God only has new commands for us?! Why make a veil in Adam?

And Adam was given commands (Law) and moral agency to obey those commands in order to live and avoid death, in the garden of Eden.

It was a contract between God and man, based upon Divine Law, that the man failed to keep, resulting in his death and the death of all mankind. Hosea 6:7

How do you think that Hosea is talking about the death of all mankind? It is talking about covenant with God.

"Covenant of Works" is the terminology used by all sound theologians to describe the establishment of Law and subsequent events in the garden, just as "Trinity" is used by sound theologians to define Infinite God in heaven.

Nang

Are you FOR the establishment of Law then? Romans 3:31?

 

[Jacob]

O.K.



None.



This describes how the Christian, who lives by faith in Jesus Christ, and who is now under the Covenant of Grace, is to live.

The Law is never abrogated. The fate of the sinner is one of pardon by faith in Christ, and his life is changed to one of thankfulness and obedience due to love of God's Word and commands. This new obedience, in the Holy Spirit, to the moral laws of God is called living the "Law of Christ."

Scripture says the faith of the believer, in fact, establishes the Law. Romans 3:31

Christians willingly live according to the good moral laws of God by faith in the righteousness of Christ; thankful for the promises of grace, and not in hopes of meriting God's favor by their works.

Nang

Sounds like you are for law and not against it as I had supposed. Your covenant of works sounds like a straw man... especially since you talk about freedom from God's commands.

 

[Nang]

Sounds like you are for law and not against it as I had supposed. Your covenant of works sounds like a straw man... especially since you talk about freedom from God's commands.

The sons of God live under the Covenant of Grace that provides the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ that fulfilled all the Law on their behalf.

By faith, Christians live moral lives according to God's Law. Not out of fear of failure to keep all the law (for Christ has satisfied our human obligations under the Law), or to merit salvation in ourselves, but out of thankfulness to God for the goodness and wisdom of His law.

And all such holy living is enjoyed through the power and sanctification of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ (who Personifies all that is morally and legally good), who abides in us, and we in Him.

According to the great new Covenant of Grace that God has established, promised, and performed for us.

Nang

 

[Nick M]

In context and grammatically, this is a demarcation of ministry or different target audiences for the one NT gospel based on the cross, not two true NT gospels for two groups.

Really?

Jn. 3:16; I Jn. 5:11-13; Jn. 1:12 You say this is circ. This is now, not future. Jesus, Peter, John, James taught grace.

Jesus taught grace? Where? You just said Jesus taught the law pre-cross, and that is the change over point. When you aren't claiming Acts 2 is the changing point.

Transition, we agree.

Transition? You just said Jesus taught grace.

Acts 2 The message is that Jew/Gentiles both come to Christ through the gospel, faith in Christ.

but Jew/Gentile individually were one in Christ through the cross.

You just said Acts 2.

Israel/Judaism is pre-cross

Jesus.... taught grace.

Judaism is grace? Wow. I didn't know sacrficing your best ram without spot or blemish was grace.

You are not just the clown of TOL. You probably are the con man John W says you are. Nobody can be as stupid as you appear to be.

Jesus taught grace, and Judaism. How can you possibly say that? :kookoo:

 

[Nick M]

To answer the OP,

20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

It sure looks like Jesus is saying if they do not honor the sabbath and instead run and hide, they are in trouble for breaking his law.

 

[beloved57]

Col 1
23: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

It's all over, the end has come and gone!

lol ok !

 

[Stripe]

Just use the NIV

(Gal 2:7 NIV) On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews

Much less confusing, and only one gospel.

Unless you're one of those King James Onlyist/MAD people

That doesn't answer the question. :nono:

And it doesn't change the fact that two gospels are referred to. This version is just a little less specific and thorough.

Note the two different greek texts. Also, the second "gospel" seems to be added by the translator.

Galatians 2:7 (KJV)

But g235 ἀλλά alla

contrariwise, g5121 τοὐναντίον tounantion

when they saw g1492 εἴδω eidō

that g3754 ὅτι hoti

the gospel g2098 εὐαγγέλιον euaggelion

of the uncircumcision g203 ἀκροβυστία akrobystia

was committed unto me, g4100 πιστεύω pisteuō

as g2531 καθώς kathōs

[the gospel] of the circumcision g4061 περιτομή peritomē

[was] unto Peter; g4074 Πέτρος Petros



Galatians 2:7 (NASB)

But g235 ἀλλά alla

on the contrary, g5121 τοὐναντίον tounantion

seeing g3708 ὁράω horaō

that g3754 ὅτι hoti

I had been entrusted with g4100 πιστεύω pisteuō

the gospel g2098 εὐαγγέλιον euaggelion

to the uncircumcised, g203 ἀκροβυστία akrobystia

just as g2531 καθώς kathōs

Peter g4074 Πέτρος Petros

had been to the circumcised g4061 περιτομή peritomē

Again .. two nouns described in different ways means two objects. That the article is suppressed is of little relevance.

 

[Jacob]

The sons of God live under the Covenant of Grace that provides the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ that fulfilled all the Law on their behalf.

I have no idea what you are meaning by this sentence. It is confusing to me what you mean. There is no distinction in what you are saying. Your ideas are running together.

1 Corinthians 14:7 Yet even lifeless things, either flute or harp, in producing a sound, if they do not produce a distinction in the tones, how will it be known what is played on the flute or on the harp?

By faith, Christians live moral lives according to God's Law. Not out of fear of failure to keep all the law (for Christ has satisfied our human obligations under the Law), or to merit salvation in ourselves, but out of thankfulness to God for the goodness and wisdom of His law.

Now your enemies are fear and failure or a sense of failure...

How do you know Christians live according to the law?

And all such holy living is enjoyed through the power and sanctification of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ (who Personifies all that is morally and legally good), who abides in us, and we in Him.

Legally good?

1 Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

According to the great new Covenant of Grace that God has established, promised, and performed for us.

Nang

Would that be New Covenant or Covenant of Grace? Sounds like you are saying grace always was and yet there is a covenant sense in which it is new. But again, you are comparing it with your contrived Covenant of Works.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Are good works old or old hat?

Ephesians 2:10.

Anyone saved before Christ? How if all they had was a Covenant of Works (for we know no one is justified by the works of the law)?

 

[Jacob]

Again .. two nouns described in different ways means two objects. That the article is suppressed is of little relevance.

I'm not quite following. Maybe you are addressing something unique? What two "objects" are you identifying? What is an object? (In what sense do you mean "object"?)

Which nouns are you getting your equation out of?

Why not just recognize that the NKJV has the word "gospel" twice... contrary to the original?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Then you say one gospel is one covenant and the other gospel is a different covenant? Why are we arguing that a Jew is saved by works?

No, there were two covenants, one with Abraham in uncircumcision and the other made with the circumcision at Sinai. In early Acts, there were people under each covenant, both in the promises of God.

That's what Gal 2:7 is all about. No one would say there was one covenant, but two audiences. Neither is there, in this passage, one gospel with two audiences. People who say that don't understand the promises made to Abraham.

 

[andyc]

No, there were two covenants, one with Abraham in uncircumcision and the other made with the circumcision at Sinai. In early Acts, there were people under each covenant, both in the promises of God.

That's what Gal 2:7 is all about. No one would say there was one covenant, but two audiences. Neither is there, in this passage, one gospel with two audiences. People who say that don't understand the promises made to Abraham.

There was only one covenant with Abraham, and a promise concerning him being a father of many nations. The covenant was to the physical nation that would come from his loins, but the promise would be to those who have a similar faith. Taking God at his word.
The Israelite is introduced to Christ via Abraham, but the gentile is introduced to Abraham via Christ. This is why the promise is to his seed. Christ has begot us into a family of faith where Abraham becomes our father of those who are of faith.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

There was only one covenant with Abraham,

one with Abraham in uncircumcision and the other made with the circumcision at Sinai

 

[tetelestai]

No, there were two covenants, one with Abraham in uncircumcision and the other made with the circumcision at Sinai. In early Acts, there were people under each covenant, both in the promises of God.

That's what Gal 2:7 is all about. No one would say there was one covenant, but two audiences. Neither is there, in this passage, one gospel with two audiences. People who say that don't understand the promises made to Abraham.

Galatians tells us that we are “in Christ” and fellow heirs with the covenant given to Abraham.

We are also told that the blood of Christ initiated a NC with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

This NC replaced the OC that was given to Moses

Then Paul tells us that the Gentiles are fellow heirs with the Israelites (house of Judah & house of Israel) in the NC

Therefore, the NC made with the blood of Christ also fulfills the covenant made with Abraham.

All of this is stated in one verse:

(Eph 3:6) This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

First this verse tells us that Gentiles are heirs together with the house of Israel and the house of Judah in the NC, AND sharers together in the covenant given to Abraham.

The covenant given to Moses is finished, gone, done away with, expired, fulfilled, history, etc.

 

[andyc]

The covenant involving circumcision was in preparation for the law - physical Christ = substance of the law. The promise involved Christ's fulfillment of the law which would then enable him to be a father of many nations (John 8:56) which opens the door to spiritual birth.