ECT When where angels created?

[Derf]

These 2 passages are often associated with Satan, or morning star in some translations:

[Isa 14:12-15] 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

[Eze 28:12-15] 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

If those passages really apply to Satan, or at least to some angel (as suggested by Ez 28:14), then it seems like in Eden he was still not corrupted at the first, that he was created, despite Lazy Afternoon's assertion, so it seems like their creation was during the 6 creation days.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

I tend to believe that they were created on day 1 between the sequence of the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:1 KJV​

(1) In the beginning God created the heaven [with the angels] and the earth.​

What's your best guess?

Day 1 when He made the Third Heaven just after He had made time.

 

[ttruscott]

Because man cannot be singing and shouting for joy before they were created.
Man was created on the 6th day, and were not present at the laying of the foundation of the earth.

Man was breathed into his new body - sounds like being sown into the world by the Son of Man to me, Matt13:36-39

 

[dodge]

Those sons of God were already around.

Found an excellent article on the subject. Angels witnessed the creation because they were already created by God.

http://blowthetrumpet.org/when-did-god-create-the-angels-booklet.html

 

[Danoh]

Found an excellent article on the subject. Angels witnessed the creation because they were already created by God.

http://blowthetrumpet.org/when-did-god-create-the-angels-booklet.html

dodge; good to see you still around.

 

[ttruscott]

"not yet born as human"

existing as unembodied souls?

Exactly - just like the angels who sang at the creation of the physical universe.

 

[ttruscott]

Good quote, Tambora.

The sons of God are presumably the angels,

If so you believe angels can have sex with human females? Gen 6:1? Few do...

I suppose that the "heaven of heavens" could be a place beyond our universe, where God dwells and where angels are there with Him, in which case it's hard to say if they were included with the things in "heaven".

Ummm, is not Sheol in the center of the earth now and paradise is one of its rooms that was moved to the heavenly realm...the heaven of heavens need not be beyond physicality, eh? Just beyond our perception?

 

[ttruscott]

Creation is not about the creation of Paradise, that place already existed, and the angels assisted. From the time He says 'Let us make man in our image' to when He had angels guarding Eden after the Fall, they existed without any statement of having been created.

A lot of theologians suggests that Satan had already been cast out of Heaven, which is why he was in the garden with Adam and Eve- that there was already a fall, essentially, and Satan spread it to man.

And few heterodox theologians suggest that the rebellion spread to some of the elect before the creation of humans and when these sinful elect were breathed (sown) into their human bodies, they brought their sinfulness with them, standing naked but not ashamed before their GOD, rejecting HIS estimation of their actions as sinful as sinners like to do.

 

[Derf]

If so you believe angels can have sex with human females? Gen 6:1? Few do...

Some do, partly for that reason. I'm undecided--it doesn't seem to fit what we know about angels, but we know so little about angels. Adam was also called a son of God:
[Luk 3:38 NIV] 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
But if someone was really singing at the time Job 38:7 refers to, it can't be man, can it?

What do you propose for "sons of God" in Job 38:7?

Ummm, is not Sheol in the center of the earth now and paradise is one of its rooms that was moved to the heavenly realm...

Sheol is usually representative of "the grave". I think it's hard to make a positive statement about it being a holding place of souls rather than bodies. But there are certainly some suggestions in that direction.

Jesus promised the thief to be in paradise together that day, while Jesus was going to be "in the heart of the earth" (Matt 12:40) and "in Sheol" (Psalm 16:10). Paul doesn't make much of it, just saying he was "buried" (1Cor 15:4).

Jonah called his fish's belly Sheol (Jon 2:2), I would suggest figuratively only.

Strangely a mother's womb seems to be related to the depths of the earth, too. [Psa 139:15 NIV] 15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.

The story about paradise being in Sheol at the time before Christ's resurrection and in heaven afterward is somewhat compelling, but not completely convincing.

Death and Hades (New Testament for Sheol) are thrown into the lake of fire in Rev 20:14, along with everyone not written in the book of life (vs 15).

the heaven of heavens need not be beyond physicality, eh? Just beyond our perception?

Isn't our perception limited to physicality? Maybe I don't understand your wording.

From what I see in scriptures, "heaven" seems to be in the "up" direction anytime a direction is indicated. Jesus "ascended" into heaven ([Act 1:10 KJV] 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel. It wasn't just metaphorical--that's what the disciples saw. The "two men in white" promised He would come back (descending, I suppose) in the same way. Jesus talked about angels "ascending and descending on the son of man".

New Jerusalem comes "down" out of heaven: [Rev 21:2 NIV] 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

 

[ttruscott]

Some do, partly for that reason. I'm undecided--it doesn't seem to fit what we know about angels, but we know so little about angels. Adam was also called a son of God:
[Luk 3:38 NIV] 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
But if someone was really singing at the time Job 38:7 refers to, it can't be man, can it?

What do you propose for "sons of God" in Job 38:7?

I think all people created in HIS image were created at the same time and some chose to accept HIS deity and promise of election / salvation and went to work for HIM as angels (angels is a job description, not a race) while other rejected HIS deity and HIS promises of salvation becoming eternally evil and condemned at that moment while others elect rebelled against the judgement of their friends who had chosen to be eternally evil, becoming evil themselves. All sinners were sent to live together as humans until the sinful elect could all be redeemed and made holy so they were not liable anymore to be pulled up with the tares and the judgement harvest may proceed.

So, for me, the sons of GOD are the elect and the morning stars are the non-elect... there are illegitimate non-sons who are not under HIS promise: Heb 12:8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. and Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have acted corruptly toward Him, They are not His children, because of their defect; But are a perverse and crooked generation. OR: their defect is that they are not HIS children... Can illegitimate non-children, those who are not HIS children be called sons of GOD? This suggest the fall of the demons and the sinful elect both happened before the creation of the physical universe, not here on earth.

Sheol is usually representative of "the grave". I think it's hard to make a positive statement about it being a holding place of souls rather than bodies. But there are certainly some suggestions in that direction.

There is certainly more than "some suggestions"... Go here since there are too many reasons to copy and paste them all to here: http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/sheol_hades.htm

Jesus promised the thief to be in paradise together that day, while Jesus was going to be "in the heart of the earth" (Matt 12:40) and "in Sheol" (Psalm 16:10). Paul doesn't make much of it, just saying he was "buried" (1Cor 15:4).

It was considered that Paradise was a room in Sheol until Christ went there and moved it to heaven.

Jonah called his fish's belly Sheol (Jon 2:2), I would suggest figuratively only.

By what authority since it is the only sign that is going to be given of His resurrection? No death, no sign...

Strangely a mother's womb seems to be related to the depths of the earth, too. [Psa 139:15] 15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.

Dead men DO bleed! This verse refers to Sheol, the place of the creation of each spirit.

Psalm 139:15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth Strongs: Psalm 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts 8482 of the earth 776.

In eight out of nine times (that I could find using Strong's) this phrase, lower(est) parts of the earth, is used, it is accepted to refer to HADES or SHEOL as per: Psalm 63:9 But those [that] seek my soul, to destroy [it], shall go into the lower parts 8482 of the earth 776.
except in Ps 139:15 where the plain and simple words imply that [he] was formed/created in Sheol, as pre-conception existence suggests, yet it is called a metaphor for, an allusion to, the womb due to an interpretational necessity brought on by anti-pce bias. It can't be interpreted as it plainly reads since that would prove pce, opening it to scrutiny.

From what I see in scriptures, "heaven" seems to be in the "up" direction anytime a direction is indicated.

There are three heavens, the sky is up, the rest of the universe is up and the heaven where GOD is in the communion of HIS Church, non-directional or omni-directional, imCo

 

[Derf]

I think all people created in HIS image were created at the same time and some chose to accept HIS deity and promise of election / salvation and went to work for HIM as angels (angels is a job description, not a race) while other rejected HIS deity and HIS promises of salvation becoming eternally evil and condemned at that moment while others elect rebelled against the judgement of their friends who had chosen to be eternally evil, becoming evil themselves. All sinners were sent to live together as humans until the sinful elect could all be redeemed and made holy so they were not liable anymore to be pulled up with the tares and the judgement harvest may proceed.

So, for me, the sons of GOD are the elect and the morning stars are the non-elect... there are illegitimate non-sons who are not under HIS promise: Heb 12:8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. and Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have acted corruptly toward Him, They are not His children, because of their defect; But are a perverse and crooked generation. OR: their defect is that they are not HIS children... Can illegitimate non-children, those who are not HIS children be called sons of GOD? This suggest the fall of the demons and the sinful elect both happened before the creation of the physical universe, not here on earth.

There is certainly more than "some suggestions"... Go here since there are too many reasons to copy and paste them all to here: http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/sheol_hades.htm

It was considered that Paradise was a room in Sheol until Christ went there and moved it to heaven.
By what authority since it is the only sign that is going to be given of His resurrection? No death, no sign...

Dead men DO bleed! This verse refers to Sheol, the place of the creation of each spirit.

Psalm 139:15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth Strongs: Psalm 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts 8482 of the earth 776.

In eight out of nine times (that I could find using Strong's) this phrase, lower(est) parts of the earth, is used, it is accepted to refer to HADES or SHEOL as per: Psalm 63:9 But those [that] seek my soul, to destroy [it], shall go into the lower parts 8482 of the earth 776.
except in Ps 139:15 where the plain and simple words imply that [he] was formed/created in Sheol, as pre-conception existence suggests, yet it is called a metaphor for, an allusion to, the womb due to an interpretational necessity brought on by anti-pce bias. It can't be interpreted as it plainly reads since that would prove pce, opening it to scrutiny.

There are three heavens, the sky is up, the rest of the universe is up and the heaven where GOD is in the communion of HIS Church, non-directional or omni-directional, imCo

I don't have much problem with your sheol interpretations.

The rest of the stuff is rather speculative and foreign to the scriptures. Where else are you getting your material?

 

[ttruscott]

The rest of the stuff is rather speculative and foreign to the scriptures.

Ever since Moses wrote 'naked' about Adam and Eve when they were just newly created and so perfect and all, naked had to mean unclothed and not sinful becasue GOD cannot create sin. This mistake has had 4000 years of other verses being found to support its pov, that we are created on earth, Being created on earth leads directly to the idea that we are sinners in Adam which is a founding blasphemy of all (most all) Christian theology.

So pervasive is the idea of our being created on earth that we can not even see our pce when it is shown to us, like we cannot see the elephant in the strawberry patch because his toe nails are painted red...It is just too big to see! In other words - the Bible is full of our pre-conception existence!

 

[Danoh]

I doubt the angel Moroni could have put that any better; ttruscott :chuckle:

 

[dodge]

dodge; good to see you still around.

Thank you Danoh. I drop in from time to time and visit.

 

[Derf]

Ever since Moses wrote 'naked' about Adam and Eve when they were just newly created and so perfect and all, naked had to mean unclothed and not sinful becasue GOD cannot create sin. This mistake has had 4000 years of other verses being found to support its pov, that we are created on earth, Being created on earth leads directly to the idea that we are sinners in Adam which is a founding blasphemy of all (most all) Christian theology.

So pervasive is the idea of our being created on earth that we can not even see our pce when it is shown to us, like we cannot see the elephant in the strawberry patch because his toe nails are painted red...It is just too big to see! In other words - the Bible is full of our pre-conception existence!

Fortunately, you are right on track! You just have to redefine a few more words in the bible, so that it doesn't mean anything at all. Then we can toss the whole thing.:nono:

 

[6days]

We don't know how much time the earth was in this condition.

God does tell us how how long the earth was formless and empty..."one day". We see on the second day, God began to form and fill the earth.

*We do know that 'tohu wa-bohu' means a judgement took place

No, you might believe that in order to insert deep time into scripture....But, 'tohu wabohu' simply means without form and empty. There is nothing about any type of chaos or judgement. *Tohu wabohu was simply the initial stage of creation. God then proceeded to give form to the earth...oceans, dry land, hills etc. And, God proceeded to fill the earth with life. *


Also, re your comments about Satan.... There is nothing in the Bible suggesting Satans rebellion was on the earth (wasn't the rebellion in heaven?). Also scripture says nothing regarding your belief that that Satand rebellion effected the earth.*

 

[way 2 go]

Also, re your comments about Satan.... There is nothing in the Bible suggesting Satans rebellion was on the earth (wasn't the rebellion in heaven?). Also scripture says nothing regarding your belief that that Satand rebellion effected the earth.*

just a theory
lucifer fell when he tempted Adam & Eve

Lucifer was the guardian in the garden (and it was good)


Eze 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.
Eze 28:14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.

 

[6days]

just a theory
lucifer fell when he tempted Adam & Eve

Lucifer was the guardian in the garden (and it was good)


Eze 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.
Eze 28:14 You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.

Cool... thanks. I don't think I had even thought of that possibility before, but that may be correct.

 

[Patrick Cronin]

There is no point in speculating about when the angels were created and when they fell. Even if you were to find out (which is impossible)it would not bring unbelievers any nearer to salvation, or increase your faith in Jesus Christ. But we are told why the Scriptures were given to us in 2 Timothy 3:16 (for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness)If we concentrate on that we would make far more effective use of our time. Patrick Cronin.