What is the Gospel?

[Derf]

Many reasons. I'd say that chiefly, Easter promises that we can live forever.
Much like her answer to the problem of evil, the Church, in my estimation, spells Easter all out, with the Christian faith as a whole.
I've said that Easter is the tip of the Gospel's arrow or spear. ITT, we've been discussing internal matters, answering the question What is the Gospel? from the position of previously chosen faith; we're all already Christians. So for us, the question is muddled a bit, because we're sort of looking back on what the Gospel is, but I've been all along trying to say what the Gospel is primarily to the unbeliever. For the unbeliever, the Gospel is Easter. Easter is the door or gate, into the spelling out of the whole Christian faith, and of all of the rest of the Good News contained therein, first and foremost Good Friday.

The good news, then, is we can live forever. This is news because without Easter we die. It's good because death is not a good thing, despite it being the power of science's evolution, supposedly.

I disagree that we have been discussing internal matters. The presentation of the gospel is the most external thing the church should be doing, and in this thread, [MENTION=16283]Sonnet[/MENTION] was asking for a presentation of the gospel. There have been some decent ones and some not so good ones, imo.

Now, I understand that Sonnet was picking on a particular in-house disagreement, but giving him the benefit of the doubt, it's a valid question--if the answer to "What must I do to be saved?" is "Nothing", then what is he to do? I would hope that any Christian in this forum would have the same answer: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."

But I'm quick to ask, "What does it mean to 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ'?" And so should he. One must count the cost, yes? Is it worth losing the pleasures of this life in exchange for unending joy in the one to come?

I pray Sonnet will see this short life as one not to hang on to, but eternity as something to strive for--through the narrow gate of Jesus' death on the cross.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Guess you can read my words however you like. I can't stop you. :deadhorse:

:deadhorse:

John 16:9 The world’s sin is that it refuses to believe in me.

Here in the book of John.., written by John.., we have confirmation that The Sin of the WORLD is UNBELIEF...

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here we have John in the epistle of John saying that He is the atoning sacrifice for not only “our sins”... but the sin of the Whole World... that’s as in the Kosmos....

John 3:16 says likewise...

Now... this is my rebuke to you, which your haughty soul won’t take, but others need to see... despite what petty filth you will spew back...

AMR specifically said it is Blasphemy to tell Bob Jesus died for Him... Because He doesn’t know if Jesus died for him...

You and AMR are now outside of scripture.

Your Jail Cell analogy involved Jesus unlocking all cells, but AMRs has Jesus only unlocking some....

You should shut your duplicitous mouth... though shutting up is more impossible for you than it is for me... and that’s saying something...

You have been caught lying while rebuking in this very thread...

You may have edited some of it... but those who have been following have seen it...

Your arrogance, pride, duplicitous nature and hardened heart sicken me....

AMR is outside of scripture and you are defending him by lying to Sonnet... who is searching out salvation....

No remorse here... all well expressed from me.., and I may have posted again... but what you are doing is horrible!

 

[glorydaz]

Since 1 Corinthians 15:3 is described by the apostle Paul as THE GOSPEL but you won't express such words to a crowd of unbelievers [YELLOS]then I'd say the OP has made it's point.[/YELLOW]

:chuckle: You wish.

This is very simple....those who preach and believe the Gospel are entitled to use the word "OUR SINS", because we have believed.

We have no business preaching the Gospel unless it's based on the word BELIEVE.

Where, pray tell, is that word BELIEVE in this verse? opcorn:

1 Corinthians 15:3
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:​

Paul alluded to what he had preached previously, just as I did for you, but you chose to IGNORE it. Why? Because it would prove you wrong, and expose your aim is deception and deceit.

This text in Acts is what Paul speaks of in the first two verses of 1 Cor. 15, but you don't want to address that, do you? Why do you skip right over it....as if it was not part of the Gospel he is preaching in 1 Cor. 15:3? I know why, and it doesn't come from honest "seeking".

Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.​

How they had believed in this basic fact of the dbr for the justification of SINS. Those who reject that WORK OF THE CROSS, will die in their sins unless they believe.


Now you've beat this dead horse until the only thing left is bones. Can you really be this dense? When you take verses out of their context, you miss the whole truth. :nono:

 

[glorydaz]

John 16:9 The world’s sin is that it refuses to believe in me.

Here in the book of John.., written by John.., we have confirmation that The Sin of the WORLD is UNBELIEF...

1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Here we have John in the epistle of John saying that He is the atoning sacrifice for not only “our sins”... but the sin of the Whole World... that’s as in the Kosmos....

John 3:16 says likewise...

Now... this is my rebuke to you, which your haughty soul won’t take, but others need to see... despite what petty filth you will spew back...

AMR specifically said it is Blasphemy to tell Bob Jesus died for Him... Because He doesn’t know if Jesus died for him...

You and AMR are now outside of scripture.

Your Jail Cell analogy involved Jesus unlocking all cells, but AMRs has Jesus only unlocking some....

You should shut your duplicitous mouth... though shutting up is more impossible for you than it is for me... and that’s saying something...

You have been caught lying while rebuking in this very thread...

You may have edited some of it... but those who have been following have seen it...

Your arrogance, pride, duplicitous nature and hardened heart sicken me....

AMR is outside of scripture and you are defending him by lying to Sonnet... who is searching out salvation....

No remorse here... all well expressed from me.., and I may have posted again... but what you are doing is horrible!

So the little crybaby is having another meltdown. opcorn:

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Believe or believed.

I say this.....

King James Bible
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

 

[glorydaz]

Shall we discuss further what we are saved from? Adam and Eve were promised death if they disobeyed and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Because of their sin, all mankind is under the same sentence (discussions about why can be left to other threads). If Adam's sin is to be applied universally, we would expect all men to die. If Jesus' death is to be applied universally, then what would we expect regarding everybody that dies?

That they would be resurrected.

Are they?

Yes, all will be resurrected, except, perhaps, for a limited number (the beast and his prophet, for two--not sure if there are others--but they don't experience the first death either). Revelation talks about 2 resurrections. Which seem to include all people in one or the other. Thus, if Bob is part of either group, he will be resurrected, thus, Jesus' sacrifice applies to Bob, as well as all people, and Bob's pastor can rest easy.

Do you think Jesus' sacrifice is why all are resurrected? I don't see the connection. Whether Jesus had gone to the cross or not, men would still be brought before the throne of God for the judgment.

We all die....even those who did not sin like Adam. I just don't see how "Bob's pastor" can credit the resurrection of the unjust to our Lord's sacrifice. Maybe I've missed something.

 

[glorydaz]

Believe or believed.

I say this.....

King James Bible
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

I think that's in reference to believing something can happen rather than believing the Gospel, don't you think?

 

[Derf]

:e4e: I hope you saw that our last discussion ended on your observations because I enjoyed them too thoroughly to add to or subtract from.

You're too kind. But you seem to make me out as a thread killer.

I gather you know we all screw up... and thus we all fall short daily. I also gather that unlike some MAD theologians that may bash confession of sin to God, daily... I think I’m reading that you see it’s profit... and honestly ... so do I. I don’t see daily confession as a requirement for salvation... but I do see it as paramount to a healthy sincerity towards God and self. And... I see admission or confession of my “inability” to save myself through works... of any kind... as paramount to salvation... or in other words... perpetual expression of my need for Jesus Christ’s complete work of salvation... apart from anything beyond my admission of need and gratitude.

And in this light... I’m fully in line with You this far.

Lordship... as in Love one another... and 1 John 4:8? Lordship as in Judge not lest ye be judged?
Lordship as in forgive others as God forgives us?

I guess I'm not sure what you mean. Are you giving me criterion by which I should be judged in my faith???

Derf... I want to thank your post, but I am making certain... Do you ascribe to Romans 4 and Ephesians 2:8f good news of eternal salvation by faith... in HIS work... alone?

You are making certain? Again, are you judging my faith, after such a reference as above? Do you think God ever judges our faith (Luke 18:8, perhaps)? How? Does He peer into our minds to see if what we are thinking is better than what we are doing? Let's say that I need a new car, and to get it, because I haven't been diligent enough to keep a job, I murder someone and take his car. But in my mind (heart?) I realize that I just need to be saved by faith. Should you judge me for such faith? Should God judge me for such faith? If God is going to judge me for such faith, and you don't see anything wrong with it, is it possible that you are missing an opportunity to help me avoid God's judgment?

Is it possible that Abraham was just THINKING God was going to give him descendants (Rom 4, Gen 15), and that was good enough? Or did 86-year-old Abraham go into Hagar and procreate with her (Jam 2:14, Gen 16:4)? That, my friend, is faith, don't you think? Maybe a little misguided, but faith, nonetheless.

Let's bring it a little closer to home. How do you know my faith is real? You were doing it in your post--you judged my words, and you had a question about them, so you asked about them. Why is that important, if we are not to judge? The answer is that we are to judge. You know it intuitively, and thus you judge every post you read here. Why is that? Because there is such a thing as truth, and if we don't discover what things are true, we are going to follow a wrong path and possibly lead others down such a path.

Why do we care what path is right or wrong? Because there is a particular end that is "right" and a particular end that is "wrong". You want to make sure people take the right path to the right end.

That's the gospel, EE. (Are you listening, [MENTION=16283]Sonnet[/MENTION]?) And the right path is to follow the Lord Jesus Christ, to abide in Him. To see His commands as an easy yoke, and to love His law, all of which is made possible by Christ's perfect life and His death on the cross, followed by His resurrection. None of it is made possible by my efforts, yet my efforts are absolutely necessary for me to partake in His salvation.

Please note... I came here specifically to hear your understanding and not debate. I have enormous respect for your perspective and appreciate your words here.

And Derf... This is to you alone... and any cross chatter from Nihilo, Sonnet, Danoh or [y]ou is all I am interested in. Any other response to this post from any other... besides you... Nihilo, Danoh or Sonnet will go ignored by me.

Thank you in advance for always edifying my understanding...

- Me

Oops... sorry [MENTION=15579]1Mind1Spirit[/MENTION] ... I wouldn’t ignore your post either...

I'd sure hate to keep anyone out of the discussion that genuinely wants to ask real questions and hear real answers. And my understanding needs to be monitored and rebuked sometimes, too (there's that judging thing again ). But I understand your concern with rabbit trails and hobby horses.

 

[Derf]

Do you think Jesus' sacrifice is why all are resurrected? I don't see the connection. Whether Jesus had gone to the cross or not, men would still be brought before the throne of God for the judgment.

How do you know that?

We all die....even those who did not sin like Adam. I just don't see how "Bob's pastor" can credit the resurrection of the unjust to our Lord's sacrifice. Maybe I've missed something.

If the original death was the result of Adam's sin, and death was the penalty promised to Adam for such sin, why would he need to be resurrected, just to be judged again, and...what? more death?

And if every single one of Adam's progeny is also headed toward death, whether for their own sins or Adam's, because the wages of sin is death, why do we need a resurrection, just to be judged again, and...more death?

But if Christ really does offer peace to mankind--reconciliation with God by taking our punishment, and if, after He dies and rises, every single one of Adam's progeny really is resurrected, can we put those two with that two and make four? Can we not say that Christ's resurrection actually defeated DEATH, and not just SOME DEATH, for Adam's race?

I acknowledge there is a "second death", but is it of the same type as the first death? Or is it a type that lasts forever--a deathless death? Mainstream Christianity says the latter. And the bible seems to back it up. I kind of want to know why.

 

[glorydaz]

Now... this is my rebuke to you, which your haughty soul won’t take, but others need to see... despite what petty filth you will spew back...

I scoff at any rebuke coming from you.
That's like worrying about a child saying I'm mean for not giving him the candy he's insisted on. :chuckle:

AMR specifically said it is Blasphemy to tell Bob Jesus died for Him... Because He doesn’t know if Jesus died for him...

Your hatred for AMR is noted. In spite of your fake "I love you" notes.

You and AMR are now outside of scripture.

Ah, the Judge Man speaketh. :bow:

Your Jail Cell analogy involved Jesus unlocking all cells, but AMRs has Jesus only unlocking some....

NOPE wrong again. My jail cell analogy only had ONE CELL DOOR. The reasons for who may or may not walk out are outside the scope of the GOSPEL message. In spite of your eagerness to bring division over the BASIC Gospel of Salvation.

You should shut your duplicitous mouth... though shutting up is more impossible for you than it is for me... and that’s saying something...

How many tantrums must we endure? I'm pretty sure I wasn't posting to you at all when you decided to have another meltdown.

You have been caught lying while rebuking in this very thread...

False accusation. :chew:

You may have edited some of it... but those who have been following have seen it...

Unlike you, I stand by my words and see no need to skulk around with dirty socks hanging from my back pocket.

Your arrogance, pride, duplicitous nature and hardened heart sicken me....

Yes, I hurt your little feelings. Poor baby.

AMR is outside of scripture and you are defending him by lying to Sonnet... who is searching out salvation....

Dang, three lies in a row. That's gotta be a record.

1. AMR preaches the same Gospel Paul did. Any other differences in doctrine have nothing to do with the Gospel.

2. I have not lied to Sonnet....Mr. Saviour of all Seekers.

3. Sonnet is NOT searching for salvation. He's here to divide and attack the Gospel itself.

No remorse here... all well expressed from me.., and I may have posted again... but what you are doing is horrible!

I'm sorry, but I really can hardly keep a straight face. Kick your feet and pull your hair out...whatever floats your boat. :nono:

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I think that's in reference to believing something can happen rather than believing the Gospel, don't you think?

Dispensationally maybe?........What was that Nihilo was askin' yuh?

29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him,

 

[glorydaz]

How do you know that?

Because the Scripture tells us. Hebrews 9:27 1 Peter 4:5

If the original death was the result of Adam's sin, and death was the penalty promised to Adam for such sin, why would he need to be resurrected, just to be judged again, and...what? more death?

Adam's death was physical. There remains the punishment element, and the bowing down to their Creator. Open admission of guilt perhaps.

And if every single one of Adam's progeny is also headed toward death, whether for their own sins or Adam's, because the wages of sin is death, why do we need a resurrection, just to be judged again, and...more death?

There is an alternative for those who believe, and that's LIFE. The unjust are raised to damnation, and the just to life.

But if Christ really does offer peace to mankind--reconciliation with God by taking our punishment, and if, after He dies and rises, every single one of Adam's progeny really is resurrected, can we put those two with that two and make four? Can we not say that Christ's resurrection actually defeated DEATH, and not just SOME DEATH, for Adam's race?

No, I don't think we can say that.

I acknowledge there is a "second death", but is it of the same type as the first death? Or is it a type that lasts forever--a deathless death? Mainstream Christianity says the latter. And the bible seems to back it up. I kind of want to know why.

Interesting topic, but way more than can fit in this thread, I'm thinking.

At this point, I'm trying to focus on the Gospel. And I have a dog nipping at my heels trying to tear me to shreds here already. Perhaps you could start a thread, Derf. I would love to get a better grasp of what you're thinking on this.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

You're too kind. But you seem to make me out as a thread killer.

I guess I'm not sure what you mean. Are you giving me criterion by which I should be judged in my faith???

You are making certain? Again, are you judging my faith, after such a reference as above? Do you think God ever judges our faith (Luke 18:8, perhaps)? How? Does He peer into our minds to see if what we are thinking is better than what we are doing? Let's say that I need a new car, and to get it, because I haven't been diligent enough to keep a job, I murder someone and take his car. But in my mind (heart?) I realize that I just need to be saved by faith. Should you judge me for such faith? Should God judge me for such faith? If God is going to judge me for such faith, and you don't see anything wrong with it, is it possible that you are missing an opportunity to help me avoid God's judgment?

Is it possible that Abraham was just THINKING God was going to give him descendants (Rom 4, Gen 15), and that was good enough? Or did 86-year-old Abraham go into Hagar and procreate with her (Jam 2:14, Gen 16:4)? That, my friend, is faith, don't you think? Maybe a little misguided, but faith, nonetheless.

Let's bring it a little closer to home. How do you know my faith is real? You were doing it in your post--you judged my words, and you had a question about them, so you asked about them. Why is that important, if we are not to judge? The answer is that we are to judge. You know it intuitively, and thus you judge every post you read here. Why is that? Because there is such a thing as truth, and if we don't discover what things are true, we are going to follow a wrong path and possibly lead others down such a path.

Why do we care what path is right or wrong? Because there is a particular end that is "right" and a particular end that is "wrong". You want to make sure people take the right path to the right end.

That's the gospel, EE. (Are you listening, @<a href="http://theologyonline.com/member.php?u=16283" target="_blank">Sonnet</a>?) And the right path is to follow the Lord Jesus Christ, to abide in Him. To see His commands as an easy yoke, and to love His law, all of which is made possible by Christ's perfect life and His death on the cross, followed by His resurrection. None of it is made possible by my efforts, yet my efforts are absolutely necessary for me to partake in His salvation.

I'd sure hate to keep anyone out of the discussion that genuinely wants to ask real questions and hear real answers. And my understanding needs to be monitored and rebuked sometimes, too (there's that judging thing again ). But I understand your concern with rabbit trails and hobby horses.

Well... Sh1T!!! You’re not faith only and you mistake human opinion for Righteous Judgment...

Much of your dialogue is valuable... but you took too many words to say by Faith Alone.

You will reject the video I’m closing with... most likely... but [MENTION=16283]Sonnet[/MENTION] ... the video I’m about to post is an excellent synopsis of the gospel... and I really am burning my bridges here... because though I would bible study with Derf any day and benefit from it...

He isn’t teaching others to simply “sit in the chair of faith”...

It’s “Milk Plus”... Droogy Hangout reference.... from A Clockwork Orange.

Derf is the most intensely diplomatic debater here and can teach much...

But it’s either yes or no to Ephesians 2:8f

And yet... Derf is correct on faith taking effort... as all have doubts and not all admit it... but personal relationship with Jesus is the only way to quell those doubts...

So I’m ambiguously concluding my time here with positive and negative notation of Derf’s good and bad points... (In my “opinion”.... not judgment.)

And Derf... you are a thread builder... not a thread killer. You also are the most mysterious Theological perspective here...

The Gospel... in my opinion... is well summarized in this fantastic video...

And Derf is a valid perspective and worth time and ear... though we have a schism of sorts over Romans 4 and Ephesians 2:8f... but then again... we don’t.

[MENTION=17606]Derf[/MENTION]... the fool says in his heart... there is no God... but the mind of a man is a carnal thing.

The heart and mind are not the same... IMNSHO...

Only God knows the heart and we can share opinions... but only God Judges Rightly.

 

[glorydaz]

Dispensationally maybe?........What was that Nihilo was askin' yuh?

29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him,

I don't know about the Dispensational aspect, but I'm all down with the suffering stuff.

Suffering fools seems to be my special calling.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Believe or believed.

I say this.....

King James Bible
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

:cheers:

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

:cheers:

NET Bible
Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will guard you.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

 

[God's Truth]

Well... Sh1T!!! You’re not faith only and you mistake human opinion for Righteous Judgment...

Much of your dialogue is valuable... but you took too many words to say by Faith Alone.

You will reject the video I’m closing with... most likely... but [MENTION=16283]Sonnet[/MENTION] ... the video I’m about to post is an excellent synopsis of the gospel... and I really am burning my bridges here... because though I would bible study with Derf any day and benefit from it...

He isn’t teaching others to simply “sit in the chair of faith”...

It’s “Milk Plus”... Droogy Hangout reference.... from A Clockwork Orange.

Derf is the most intensely diplomatic debater here and can teach much...

But it’s either yes or no to Ephesians 2:8f

And yet... Derf is correct on faith taking effort... as all have doubts and not all admit it... but personal relationship with Jesus is the only way to quell those doubts...

So I’m ambiguously concluding my time here with positive and negative notation of Derf’s good and bad points... (In my “opinion”.... not judgment.)

And Derf... you are a thread builder... not a thread killer. You also are the most mysterious Theological perspective here...

The Gospel... in my opinion... is well summarized in this fantastic video...

And Derf is a valid perspective and worth time and ear... though we have a schism of sorts over Romans 4 and Ephesians 2:8f... but then again... we don’t.

[MENTION=17606]Derf[/MENTION]... the fool says in his heart... there is no God... but the mind of a man is a carnal thing.

The heart and mind are not the same... IMNSHO...

Only God knows the heart and we can share opinions... but only God Judges Rightly.

Every time Paul says not of works, Paul is speaking of the works of the law that used to justify one's soul. The works of the law was circumcision, a dietary law, special various external washings, and the sacrifice of animals.

Paul would not ever teach faith without obedience. Peter must have heard of the faith alone gospel that people misunderstood Paul as teaching because he said what he did in 2 Peter 3:16, and 17. Even James heard what some people misunderstood Paul as saying and James says those people are foolish. See James 2:14, 17, 20, 22, and 24.

 

[glorydaz]

Every time Paul says not of works, Paul is speaking of the works of the law that used to justify one's soul. The works of the law was circumcision, a dietary law, special various external washings, and the sacrifice of animals.

Paul would not ever teach faith without obedience. Peter must have heard of the faith alone gospel that people misunderstood Paul as teaching because he said what he did in 2 Peter 3:16, and 17. Even James heard what some people misunderstood Paul as saying and James says those people are foolish. See James 2:14, 17, 20, 22, and 24.

Ah, now here is that "Other Gospel" Paul was talking about. :readthis:

 

[God's Truth]

Do you think Jesus' sacrifice is why all are resurrected? I don't see the connection. Whether Jesus had gone to the cross or not, men would still be brought before the throne of God for the judgment.

Jesus IS the resurrection.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;