What is the Gospel?

[glorydaz]

Where in scripture is the exclusion of Egyptians and the inclusion of the Israelites made to explicitly symbolise a limited atonement?




I give my opinion and you give yours - why is that problematic?




Those who may have decided to not heed God's/Moses's advice were not excluded from the provision.

The "provision" was not made for the Egyptians.

 

[Sonnet]

Many....just what it says. Many will be made righteous....not all.

So many, but not all were made sinners?

 

[Sonnet]

The "provision" was not made for the Egyptians.

Perhaps that is why Jesus chose a more appropriate analogy - one in which all were provided for. That's why Paul told unbelievers that, 'Christ died for our sins,' isn't it?

 

[glorydaz]

So many, but not all were made sinners?

The verse does not say all were made sinners.

Words matter. False doctrines are built on such.

 

[glorydaz]

Perhaps that is why Jesus chose a more appropriate analogy - one in which all were provided for. That's why Paul told unbelievers that, 'Christ died for our sins,' isn't it?

He was talking to those who had believed his Gospel...he was not speaking to unbelievers. "By which also you are saved...." Do those sound like unbelievers to you? Are unbelievers saved? :chew:

1 Cor. 15:1 I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.​

Paul always preached justification by faith....believing was an essential of his Gospel.

Acts 13:38-39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.​

 

[Sonnet]

The verse does not say all were made sinners.

Words matter. False doctrines are built on such.

Romans 5:12,19
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[glorydaz]

Romans 5:12,19
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Just as I said....it does NOT say all were made sinners. :yawn:

 

[Sonnet]

He was talking to those who had believed his Gospel...he was not speaking to unbelievers. "By which also you are saved...." Do those sound like unbelievers to you? Are unbelievers saved? :chew:

Yes, Paul was talking to believing Corinthians but Paul still makes, 'Christ died for our sins,' (along with the proof of His resurrection) the Gospel.

You don't seem to want acknowledge that simple fact.

1 Cor. 15:1 I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.​

'Preached' is the word he uses - past tense. He is reminding them of what was said when he came to them. He even, as I have remarked on before, allows for for those that have not believed completely...and tells them what Christ has done for them.

Paul always preached justification by faith....believing was an essential of his Gospel.

Acts 13:38-39 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.​

Indeed - and 'without the sedding of blood there is no forgivness'.

 

[Sonnet]

Just as I said....it does NOT say all were made sinners. :yawn:

You know of but one person apart from Christ that has not sinned? When Paul says, 'many were made sinners,' he is using the word to mean all.

In which case I wonder why you cited Hebrews 9:28 to prove limited atonement?

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, Paul was talking to believing Corinthians but Paul still makes, 'Christ died for our sins,' (along with the proof of His resurrection) the Gospel.

You don't seem to want acknowledge that simple fact.

No, he doesn't. You do.

'Preached' is the word he uses - past tense. He is reminding them of what was said when he came to them.

The Gospel he preached was BELIEVE for the forgiveness of sin.
These people had claimed to have done that, which is why he said "our sins".

He even, as I have remarked on before, allows for for those that have not believed completely...and tells them what Christ has done for them.

Nonsense...there is no "believed completely" about it. :nono:

Indeed - and 'without the sedding of blood there is no forgivness'.

And we access that blood through faith. Which is Paul's Gospel, and it's why I keep trying to make that clear to you. "That they may receive forgiveness of sins...."

NOT that they have already received forgiveness of sins as you want Paul to be claiming.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.​

 

[glorydaz]

You know of but one person apart from Christ that has not sinned? When Paul says, 'many were made sinners,' he is using the word to mean all.

No, he isn't. And babies and children don't sin. The Lord, Himself, makes that clear. Matthew 19:14

In which case I wonder why you cited Hebrews 9:28 to prove limited atonement?

It has nothing to do with "limited atonement". It has to do with the word many.

If many means all, as you claim, then all are made righteous, too. Is that your claim?

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.​

 

[Sonnet]

No, he doesn't. You do.

That you deny what Paul emphatically and explicitly declares to be the Gospel is astonishing.

"...the gospel I preached to you...By this gospel you are saved..."

And all the while you continue to withhold it from people Glorydaz.

Paul did something quite different,'...this is what we preach and this is what you believed...' He says it without scruple: 'this is what we preach.'

 

[Clete]

Paul's unequivocal view that the Gospel may include (indeed, should include - as it is the very essence of what he considered to be the Gospel) the statement that, 'Christ died for our sins,' isn't shared amongst all Christians. Rather, such, they say, is to be actually withheld from preaching.

This proscription should be contrasted, of course, with Paul's emphatic, 'this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.'

Are you saying that this applies to glorydaz? What Christians say that it should be withheld from preaching?

 

[Sonnet]

Are you saying that this applies to glorydaz?

GD has said so.

What Christians say that it should be withheld from preaching?

Calvinists.

 

[glorydaz]

I am a non-believer interested in knowing what the good news is.

That you deny what Paul emphatically and explicitly declares to be the Gospel is astonishing.

"...the gospel I preached to you...By this gospel you are saved..."

And all the while you continue to withhold it from people Glorydaz.

Paul did something quite different,'...this is what we preach and this is what you believed...' He says it without scruple: 'this is what we preach.'

And is this why you still aren't saved? Did someone tell you that Christ died for your sins whether you believe or not? Is that why you feel it's safe for you to attack the Gospel and the Bible....because Christ already died for your sins and you will not face the wrath of God nor suffer the consequences of your sins?

You're wrong. You will face the wrath of God, because Paul's Gospel absolutely always includes a big fat IF. If you believe, then your sins are forgiven. Paul preached it, and the Corinthians believed it. They are included in the word "our", and you aren't.

When I preach the Gospel, I do as Paul did. I preach the whole truth, and give no false hope to unbelievers who then go on as if they had no need to have their sins forgiven.

Colossians 3:5-6
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:​

 

[Sonnet]

And is this why you still aren't saved? Did someone tell you that Christ died for your sins whether you believe or not? Is that why you feel it's safe for you to attack the Gospel and the Bible....because Christ already died for your sins and you will not face the wrath of God nor suffer the consequences of your sins?

Paul, according to scripture, tells me that Christ died for me.

I don't believe anyone in scripture suggests that belief isn't required.

You're wrong. You will face the wrath of God, because Paul's Gospel absolutely always includes a big fat IF. If you believe, then your sins are forgiven. Paul preached it, and the Corinthians believed it. They are included in the word "our", and you aren't.

Paul unequivocally describes the statement, 'Christ died for our sins,' as the Gospel. That should remain as an awkward fact for those who withhold it.

When I preach the Gospel, I do as Paul did.

You do not. Paul said, '...this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.'

What did the Corinthians believe? That Jesus rose from the dead and was seen by many people? Yes, that is what Paul told them, and they believed it. What else did Paul say occured GD, that the Corinthians believed?

Why would you accept the bit about believing in the resurrection but balk over the dying for their sins bit?

 

[glorydaz]

Paul, according to scripture, tells me that Christ died for me.

I don't believe anyone in scripture suggests that belief isn't required.

You are, when you insist that "our sins" is referring to unbelievers.

Paul unequivocally describes the statement, 'Christ died for our sins,' as the Gospel. That should remain as an awkward fact for those who withhold it.

Paul makes stipulation to unbelievers....that's awkward for you when you preach sins are forgiven unbelievers.

You do not. Paul said, '...this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.'

Get a decent translation and learn how to quote it. It's no wonder you remain stuck on something so simple....you quote scripture the way God's UNtruth does.

1 Cor. 15:1-3 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;​

What did the Corinthians believe? That Jesus rose from the dead and was seen by many people? Yes, that is what Paul told them, and they believed it. What else did Paul say occured GD, that the Corinthians believed?

Gee, I wonder what that might be? :think:

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.​

Why would you accept the bit about believing in the resurrection but balk over the dying for their sins bit?

Why would you claim "our sins" covers unbelievers?

 

[glorydaz]

I am a non-believer

Paul, according to scripture, tells me that Christ died for me.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

 

[Sonnet]

You are, when you insist that "our sins" is referring to unbelievers.



Paul makes stipulation to unbelievers....that's awkward for you when you preach sins are forgiven unbelievers.



Get a decent translation and learn how to quote it. It's no wonder you remain stuck on something so simple....you quote scripture the way God's UNtruth does.

1 Cor. 15:1-3 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;​

Gee, I wonder what that might be? :think:

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.​

Why would you claim "our sins" covers unbelievers?

You are denying any universal provision in Jesus's death on the cross - and yet John 3:14-16 remains just that - a universal provision requiring an act of faith.

And you still haven't refuted that.

Perhaps it would help to clarify things if you would say for whom Jesus poured out his blood?

 

[Sonnet]

Why would you claim "our sins" covers unbelievers?

Titus 2:11, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, 1 John 2:2, John 3:14-16, 1 Timothy 1:15, Hebrews 2:9.

Your scriptures that explicitly say the opposite?

Did Jesus give himself as a ransom for all people or just some GD?