What is the Gospel?
- Thread starter Sonnet
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Sonnet
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glorydaz
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Was the propitiation contingent on "faith is His blood", Sonnet?
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ransom for all....ransom for many. Salvation appeared....salvation realized. :readthis:
Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
glorydaz
Well-known member
You claim that was a universal provision.
God
Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Sonnet
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Rather, John 3:14-16 says so.
More than that:
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
You cannot deny that Jesus poured out his blood for all without exception, even for the one who would betray Him - Judas Iscariot.
Sonnet
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Sonnet
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I'm not aware your point has been proven - but if you think it has then that's fine. Consistent Calvinists will not tell unbelievers that Christ died for them; GD won't and hasn't (on this thread).
Sonnet
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Other translations don't support your inference so it would be right to seek concordance elsewhere...1 John 2:2 for instance.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Since when is Romans 3:25KJV considered an "inference"?
Errors in the Bible again....is that your claim?
glorydaz
Well-known member
In context.....pray for all men
1 Timothy 2:1-2
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
That they come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Tim. 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
And here is the part you take out of context. The mediation agreement and what it entailed.
1 Tim. 2:5-6 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Christ's work on the cross accomplished the purpose of making it so God was ready and willing to forgive. God's justice was satisfied.
A ransom arrangement has been made ..... whereby it can only be accomplished on an individual basis through faith in the blood. The ransom is not effectual for those who remain unreconciled to God.
It will be testified in due time who that will be....whose sins have been forgiven, and who will be facing the wrath of God.
Sonnet
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A ransom arrangement? Rather, every translation has one of the following:
for all
for all people
for everyone
in the place of every person
(with two exceptions: "redemption price for all" and "redemption for all")
What are you suggesting - that Christ gave Himself as a potential ransom? That's not what Paul says in Timothy or elsewhere.
You cannot deny that Jesus poured out his blood for all without exception, even for the one who would betray Him - Judas Iscariot.
You could have quoted other translations that do not support your interpretation - for example:
English Standard Version
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.
New International Version
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Yeah, I knew you'd weasel out of what is clearly written. That's your MO...no matter which sock you use.
Sonnet
New member
Hence Paul told unbelievers, 'Christ died for our sins.'
Your saying it in all but name it would seem. Yes, it has to be received and believed. If it is rejected then the ransom is made of none effect.
Sonnet
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You have not demonstrated the weaselling you claim.
Sherman affirmed I wasn't a sock. Ad hominems are logical fallacies GD.
Sonnet
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How are you going to preach 1 Timothy 2:6 whilst maintaining that Christ did not die for all GD? You really think an unbeliever is going to be thinking as you do when presented with that verse?
You really believe that they would exclude themselves from the 'our' of 1 Corinthians 15:3 when they have just been told that Jesus Christ 'gave Himself as a ransom for all'?
...told that this was what Paul preached and what the Corinthians believed...
I've known Calvinist my entire life and have debated their doctrine for decades. You are just simply wrong.
Calvinist universally quote John 3:16 and believe that Jesus died for the whole world. They have a different (wrong) understanding of what Jesus meant by "whole world" but that does not equate to them denying that Jesus' death was propitiatory. They absolutely do believe that Jesus died for sin. There are LOTS and LOTS of things that Calvinists get wrong but whether Jesus' death had to do with paying for sin is not one of them. They deny that Jesus died for all sin but one of their major tenets is specifically about the fact that Jesus' death atoned for the sin of the elect. To deny that would just be aggressively stupid.
Jesus' death did, however, have to do with with more than just paying for sin. That is to say that His death accomplished more than just the satisfaction of justice. That was the key issue but there was more accomplished at Calvary than just that. There are all sorts of very deep spiritual truths that are all included in what is rightly called "the gospel" and, just to give one example, if some Christian pastor wants to give a sermon or a Christian lay person wants to have a discussion with his neighbor about how we are identified in Christ and that allowing Christ to live His life through us is the key to overcoming sin in our lives, then there is no requirement to also discuss the specific issue of Christ dying for sin at that moment. The gospel is a rather complex set of doctrines that are all intertwined and connected together. To discuss one aspect of the gospel does not imply the denial of other aspects of it, which seems to be what you are implying.
In short, you're debating Limited Atonement, which is a doctrine that I've come to believe that no one can fully understand AND believe without their mind being broken. There are so many passages that just flatly contradict it, many of which you've quoted in this thread, that anyone who accepts it is in one of three categories; they are either deceived, delusional or deceptive. Those in the third may or may not also be in either of the first two but in any case, the doctrine is foolishness and you are right to appose it. I would simply tell you to appose it and not some other convoluted thing that no one accepts as true. There is no Christian who denies that Jesus died for sin. Such a person just doesn't exist and debating people as though they are one of these people only make you look like the lunatic.
There is one other possibility that just occurred to me while editing this post. It could be that you are advocating Universalism which is one of the very few doctrines that are more intellectually unhinged than Calvinism. I'm really hoping that this isn't the case.
Clete
Could you provide the scripture references for all the verses for those phrases please?
Thanks!
glorydaz
Well-known member
No, Paul told that to believers.
It would seem you want to have your cake and eat it too.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Sherman only said you weren't a sock of Evil Eye's. Fool.