Sonnet
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Seriously? I thought it was obvious that it's the Gentiles - Romans 9:30-32.
What is the Gospel?
- Thread starter Sonnet
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Seriously? I thought it was obvious that it's the Gentiles - Romans 9:30-32.
More like, as soon as the replacementist expresses his displeasure at its use, he or she has merely expressed his or her own replacementist culpability :chuckle:
Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5; towards ya, AMR - in memory of Rom. 5:7,8.
Nope. Go back to the OT and study the setting and circumstances in which those two passages Paul quoted had been spoken.
Also, Gentiles is plural - nationS.
Paul was referring to "a righteous nation" (singular) within Israel considered foolish by their ruling class.
Matthew 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
This other nation?
Luke 12:29 And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. 12:30 For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. 12:31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. 12:35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 12:38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5; in memory of Rom. 5:7,8.
Sonnet
New member
You see no significance in Paul contrasting the Gentiles with Israel right after quoting Hosea, saying they attained the righteousness Israel failed to attain because of faith?
No significance in continuing thus (in Chapter 10:19-22):
Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, “I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.” And Isaiah boldly says, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.” But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”
And similarly in Romans 11:11
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
We read this at another place:
"Second, with respect to salvation, Reformed covenant theology does not juxtapose Israel and the church. For Reformed theology, the church has always been the Israel of God and the Israel of God has always been the church. Reformed covenant theology distinguishes the old and new covenants (2 Cor. 3; Heb. 7-10). It recognizes that the church was temporarily administered through a typological, national people, but the church has existed since Adam, Noah, and Abraham; and it existed under Moses and David; and it exists under Christ."
Just curious but are you the author of the article?
Nope - Paul is talking about what happened with Israel that Israel now had to seek God among the Gentiles.
How that although they had had the witness of Creation itself (compare Rom. 10:15, 18 w/ Psalms 19:1-4); and how that though they had had the witness of Moses (the Law) and the Prophets (Isaiah, et al - which is why he is quoting them); and how that though The Son Himself had come down from Heaven (Rom. 10:4-9); and how that though God had used "a foolish nation" (their Believing Remnant (Rom. 9:6-8) to provoke them to jealousy; they had "not believed" and God was now using the Gentiles to provoke them to jealousy (Rom. 11:11).
By the way, that right there shows, that this here, was written BEFORE all that....
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Returning to Romans 9 thru 11 - because Paul goes back and forth between all that he is saying in Romans 9 thru 11 about what in the world happened that Israel now found itself on the outside looking in - because Paul goes back and forth about that throughout Romans 9 thru 11 - because he is deliberately over emphasizing it's extremely important witness - it tends to confuse some - who end up reading "Gentiles" into ALL of it.
Bottom line - Paul's point is that just as He had used all that witness to Israel to provoke them to striving back to Him; although He had now turned from them "for a season" (Acts 13:11) NEVERTHELESS He was STILL attempting to provoke them to jealousy - this time "through (the result of) THEIR fall" itself - through the Gentiles He was now out AMONG.
Why? Why? Why? Why? Why does He continue to extend His grace in His mercy to such "a disobedient and gainsaying people" (Rom. 10:21)?
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Plain and simple.
But just as Epiosses read right past the obvious in my post to him about Romans 8 and ended up concluding I was not including Jews in the Body, though it was clear from two phrases I used, when combined; that I was not referring only to Gentiles in the Body, in a similar manner, you have read "the Gentiles" into passages that are not always referring to "the Gentiles."
Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5 towards both of you - in memory of Rom. 5:7,8 for all our sakes.
Sonnet
New member
I am unclear as to what you trying to say Danoh. I think most agree that scripture is affirming God's displeasure with Israel and His turning to the Gentiles. Of course, this isn't a black and white case, but a turning in general.
Perhaps we agree that Matthew 23:39 is specifically directed to the Jewish leadership, but also to Jews who follow their spiritual leader's rejection of Jesus?
1 - Paul is talking about what happened with Israel AS A NATION that INDIVIDUAL Israelites now had to seek God among the Gentile Nations.
2 - At the same time, Paul is ALSO asserting that that does NOT mean that God was now through with ISRAEL as to His PROPHESIED plan, purpose, and promises concerning them AS A NATION
(Thus, Paul's use of various examples in Romans 9-11, of other times in Israel's past wherein it had also looked as if all was forever over for what God has planned to do FOR HIMSELF IN and THROUGH "a nation" - THE Nation: Israel).
3 - Rather that this seeming enigma work of God - this UNPROPHESIED Mystery work of His - this GENTILE SALVATION that He is carrying out among the Gentiles, and that lost, INDIVIDUAL Israelites can ALSO avail themselves of during "this Mystery" age, is only until the fullness of this GENTILE salvation work of His, be come in.
Both are DIFFERENT aspects within God's purpose - that passages like the following ones are ALSO referring to...
Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Rom. 14:5; Rom. 5:6-8.
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So be done with that already - choose instead - "the word of His grace...the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began; but now is made manifest" and by that "quit you like men, be strong" Acts 20:32; Rom. 16:25, 26; 1 Cor. 16:13 :thumb:
Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5; in memory of Rom. 5:6-8.
Sonnet
New member
I don't disagree...except I wonder at your statement: "INDIVIDUAL Israelites now had to seek God among the Gentile Nations" - why are you suggesting anyone has to seek God among any nation?
Sonnet
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I feel that if a Christian is forced (because of their theology) to tell an unbeliever that Christ did not die for all without exception, then they have quite simply removed from the Gospel the very thing that makes it powerful. Romans 5:7-8 has been quoted a number of times and is appropriate here:
Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
I accept that we humans are a very sinful, devious lot - but I still believe that no man can help but be impressed and touched by this central claim Paul makes regarding Christ.
That Paul makes, 'Christ died for our sins,' an essential element in what he explicitly describes as the Gospel must remain a huge problem for those that deny it's universality.
Paul: '...the gospel I preached to you...that Christ died for our sins...this is what we preach...'
Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
I accept that we humans are a very sinful, devious lot - but I still believe that no man can help but be impressed and touched by this central claim Paul makes regarding Christ.
That Paul makes, 'Christ died for our sins,' an essential element in what he explicitly describes as the Gospel must remain a huge problem for those that deny it's universality.
Paul: '...the gospel I preached to you...that Christ died for our sins...this is what we preach...'
Because that is the perspective the Scripture itself has concerning God and Israel's PRIOR status as to that...
Deuteronomy 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
Where were the Gentiles as to that "at that time"?
Well if from YOUR perspective that is still an insufficient witness, then consider the following - as to how the Gentiles ended up on the outside lookin in...
Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Still not enough?
Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
In short, the answers are EVER in...The Book.
BUT NOW the shoe was on the other foot - God was now out among the Gentiles - Israel the one left on the outside looking in...
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Though from my Scripturally given perspective, the issue never really was who had a direct, standing access to God's blessing, rather; who availed himself of it - by faith - by taking Him at His Word to him "at that time."
Access was never...possession.
"The door of faith" between the two had/has to be "walked" thru.
That is what Paul is talking about, there in Romans 11's grafting in, thus, why the mention of fearing lest thou be cut off, also (or just as unbelieving Israel ended up cut off when its national access was cut off).
Rom. 14:5; 5:6-8.
Yep :thumb:
Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5, in memory of this that you have rightly asserted there - in memory of Rom. 5:6-8.
Prison.Charlie
New member
Spoiler
Sonnet
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glorydaz
Well-known member
Ah yes, the Secret Socks. Sorta like Juvenile Delinquents talking Pig Latin behind the school.
Who are they pretending to be now?
opcorn:
Sonnet
New member
Ah yes, the Secret Socks. Sorta like Juvenile Delinquents talking Pig Latin behind the school.
Who are they pretending to be now?
You post yet another ad hominem and all the while #2318 remains unchallenged...
Prove that the cure offered (by God through the bronze serpent) wasn't for all and prove God was disingenuous.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Trying to change the subject. How juvenile of you.
Why don't you quote some scripture....it reveals so much?
opcorn:
Sonnet
New member
It's defining exactly in what way God is now working through the Gentiles that is the difficulty is it not?
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.