Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
What is the Gospel?
- Thread starter Sonnet
- Start date
Sonnet
New member
Why are doing this musterion? The issue of for whom Christ died has always been controversial and is not unique to this thread.
Your integrity is just as questionable as mine.
glorydaz
Well-known member
No, what is unique to this thread is the sowing of discord, and that falls on your doorstep. You argued with me for pages on end, and we didn't even really disagree. It was a a matter of semantics. You did the same thing to AMR. You had already made up your mind that you disagreed with his general doctrine, so you read that into one simple statement, that did NOT say what you claimed. Just as I did not say what you were claiming, either. You need to adjust your way of argument, because this isn't going well at this point in time.
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I am not against the offer being well-meant in the proper sense that God genuinely intends to give salvation to all who believe. The problem with the "universal desire" theory is that it makes God's offer to be less than genuine. By universally extending the God's desire to save to "all men" it effectively makes that desire ineffectual and casts doubt on the promise of God to save those who believe.
In the Calvinist view the promise of God is to save all who believe, and all are invited to faith in order to be saved. The gospel warrants sinners as sinners (sinners qua sinners) to believe in Christ for the salvation of their souls. Therefore unbelief, and only unbelief, prevents a sinner from being saved. The sinner's own unbelief is to blame for his damnation.
In the view of universal thinking ("all men") salvation as promised in the gospel to all men is only hypothetical: Christ has died for the sinner's salvation only IF the sinner believes. It is only made real in the event that God gives faith to the elect sinner to enable him to believe. In that case the person is damned not only because of his unbelief, but also because God has not given him the faith which was necessary to make God's promise real. This view ends up making God responsible for the unbelief and damnation of the non-elect.
The gospel certainly isn't insincere; neither is the charge to repent and believe. The gospel itself is sincere in the message it contains. It is not capricious, unfair, or rigged. It is sincere in that it effectually accomplishes the author's (God's) intent.
God sincerely offers salvation to all who believe in Christ. The offer is therefore conditional on faith. The so-called "well meant" offer advocates remove the condition on which God's sincerity is expressed.
The two parts of a covenant are command and promise. The covenant of grace as administered in the preaching of the gospel is believe (command) and be saved (promise). Preaching the gospel to every creature entails the declaration of both the command and the promise. Hence we should be careful to emphasize that all men are commanded to believe in Jesus Christ, and also that God sincerely promises eternal life to all who will believe. The offer is general, indefinite, and conditional enough that it can be made to all men without bringing in the question of whether or not they are elect. At the same time it goes forth on the understanding that only those who are elect will be given the grace to exercise the condition of faith and thereby appropriate the promised blessing.
Keep the following in mind:
1. God has no unfulfilled desires, He will accomplish all that He wills to do.
2. The beautiful and condescending anthropomorphic language of the Scriptures must be understood in light of God's impassibility. He is without parts or passions (therefore, singular in His Eternal Will).
3. The will of precept, and the will of decree are not contradictory, to be parsed, or divided, but work together to bring about the objective of the Divine Mind.
4. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked who repents (Ezek. 18:23), yet He is “angry” (anthropopathically) with the wicked every day (Psalm 7:11).
5. The Gospel is to be preached without distinction or condition to every creature in its fullness with the purpose that sinners should turn and live.
6. Christ is offered to sinner as sinners (sinners qua sinners)
7. The free offer of Christ to sinner stands as a beacon any poor and needy soul.
8. All who are under the sound of the Gospel are truly, sincerely, and unfeigned called to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. When the Word of Life is rejected, the fault lies wholly in themselves.
9. In God, there is a general love to man as a creature (love of beneficence and complacency), because of His image in them, which has no Gospel in it. This love terminates on the creature, and has no aspect of love of benevolence in it.
10. All aspects of the free offer, with its pleadings, warnings, wooings, and commands set to accomplish two objectives; to melt the heart of the elect, and to leave the reprobate without excuse.
Words function within domains. If the "offer" were merely a matter of exhibition, then the meaning of the word would be restricted to the idea of bare presentation. However, the gospel is not merely presented to view, but also tendered for acceptance by the hearer. It carries with it the call and command to believe, with accompanying invitations, exhortations, promises, and threatenings. As such it cannot be restricted to the idea of bare presentation. It carries moral force and obligation with it. And the gospel of Christ must be more than a bare presentation because it is the blessed means of bringing the elect to saving faith, Romans 1:16; 10:17.
God offers salvation by Jesus Christ to sinners. Sinners as such are called to believe in Christ. The promise of salvation is to as many as believe. There is no desire expressed in the gospel for the salvation of those who do not believe. Those who say that there is a desire to save men who will not believe in Christ have effectively devised their own message of salvation. Holy Scripture never separates the offer of the gospel from the purpose of God to save sinners by faith in Jesus Christ.
The reason why we Reformed adhere to the indefinite term, "sinner," is because it gives the hearer the warrant to receive and rest upon Christ alone for salvation as He is offered in the gospel. Any and every hearer has this warrant to believe in Christ without determining whether or not he is elect. It also requires him to assent to the judgment of the law that he is a condemned sinner and to see his need of a Savior.
With regard to individual election and reprobation the purpose of God remains a secret at the point the gospel is offered.
- But the purpose of God for the salvation of sinners indefinitely is revealed in the gospel.
- Likewise the purpose of God to save those who believe in Christ is also revealed in the gospel.
- Likewise the purpose of God to leave unbelievers in a state of condemnation is also revealed in the gospel.
- Furthermore, those who believe to the saving of their souls demonstrate they are elect. Otherwise the apostles could not have addressed anyone as "elect," not even in the judgment of charity. Saving faith reveals the purpose of God to save individuals, and that faith is a witness of God in their souls concerning God's purpose.
- Likewise, those who remain unbelievers and never exercise faith demonstrate the purpose of God to leave them in their sins and to suffer the punishment of them. Their actions also reveal the secret purpose of God.
In short, some of God's decrees remain a secret, not all of them; those who are elect and those who are reprobate at the time of the gospel offer is one of those secrets. Nevertheless we depend upon the revelation of God's decrees in the gospel to understand the doctrine of salvation, as well as to be able to discern between those who are saved and those who perish.
Faith is only required as a condition to interest the sinner in the Savior, and God gives this faith to those whom He desires to save. Salvation is not a precept that is left unfulfilled. It is a promise which is truthfully fulfilled in the salvation of those who believe. To deny this is to deny the doctrines of grace.
Universalizing salvation makes the offer insincere. God has not purposed salvation for all men. Christ has not accomplished salvation for all men. The Spirit does not apply salvation to all men. To offer universal salvation is to make God say one thing and do another. It is the definite salvation of a particular people which is offered in the gospel. Hence the requirement of faith, and the threatening of judgment on those who will not believe. It is stated in indefinite terms because the offer is made by preachers to sinners indiscriminately, without respect to election and reprobation.
Let me put this in the plainest possible terms. Advocates of the so-called well-meant offer preach that God desires to save those who will not believe; and they claim that this is God's revealed will. This is not the biblical offer of the gospel. The biblical offer of the gospel is, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. The true gospel reveals that God desires the salvation of those who believe. There is no desire for the salvation of men irrespective of faith.
AMR
In the Calvinist view the promise of God is to save all who believe, and all are invited to faith in order to be saved. The gospel warrants sinners as sinners (sinners qua sinners) to believe in Christ for the salvation of their souls. Therefore unbelief, and only unbelief, prevents a sinner from being saved. The sinner's own unbelief is to blame for his damnation.
In the view of universal thinking ("all men") salvation as promised in the gospel to all men is only hypothetical: Christ has died for the sinner's salvation only IF the sinner believes. It is only made real in the event that God gives faith to the elect sinner to enable him to believe. In that case the person is damned not only because of his unbelief, but also because God has not given him the faith which was necessary to make God's promise real. This view ends up making God responsible for the unbelief and damnation of the non-elect.
The gospel certainly isn't insincere; neither is the charge to repent and believe. The gospel itself is sincere in the message it contains. It is not capricious, unfair, or rigged. It is sincere in that it effectually accomplishes the author's (God's) intent.
God sincerely offers salvation to all who believe in Christ. The offer is therefore conditional on faith. The so-called "well meant" offer advocates remove the condition on which God's sincerity is expressed.
The two parts of a covenant are command and promise. The covenant of grace as administered in the preaching of the gospel is believe (command) and be saved (promise). Preaching the gospel to every creature entails the declaration of both the command and the promise. Hence we should be careful to emphasize that all men are commanded to believe in Jesus Christ, and also that God sincerely promises eternal life to all who will believe. The offer is general, indefinite, and conditional enough that it can be made to all men without bringing in the question of whether or not they are elect. At the same time it goes forth on the understanding that only those who are elect will be given the grace to exercise the condition of faith and thereby appropriate the promised blessing.
Keep the following in mind:
1. God has no unfulfilled desires, He will accomplish all that He wills to do.
2. The beautiful and condescending anthropomorphic language of the Scriptures must be understood in light of God's impassibility. He is without parts or passions (therefore, singular in His Eternal Will).
3. The will of precept, and the will of decree are not contradictory, to be parsed, or divided, but work together to bring about the objective of the Divine Mind.
4. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked who repents (Ezek. 18:23), yet He is “angry” (anthropopathically) with the wicked every day (Psalm 7:11).
5. The Gospel is to be preached without distinction or condition to every creature in its fullness with the purpose that sinners should turn and live.
6. Christ is offered to sinner as sinners (sinners qua sinners)
7. The free offer of Christ to sinner stands as a beacon any poor and needy soul.
8. All who are under the sound of the Gospel are truly, sincerely, and unfeigned called to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. When the Word of Life is rejected, the fault lies wholly in themselves.
9. In God, there is a general love to man as a creature (love of beneficence and complacency), because of His image in them, which has no Gospel in it. This love terminates on the creature, and has no aspect of love of benevolence in it.
10. All aspects of the free offer, with its pleadings, warnings, wooings, and commands set to accomplish two objectives; to melt the heart of the elect, and to leave the reprobate without excuse.
Words function within domains. If the "offer" were merely a matter of exhibition, then the meaning of the word would be restricted to the idea of bare presentation. However, the gospel is not merely presented to view, but also tendered for acceptance by the hearer. It carries with it the call and command to believe, with accompanying invitations, exhortations, promises, and threatenings. As such it cannot be restricted to the idea of bare presentation. It carries moral force and obligation with it. And the gospel of Christ must be more than a bare presentation because it is the blessed means of bringing the elect to saving faith, Romans 1:16; 10:17.
God offers salvation by Jesus Christ to sinners. Sinners as such are called to believe in Christ. The promise of salvation is to as many as believe. There is no desire expressed in the gospel for the salvation of those who do not believe. Those who say that there is a desire to save men who will not believe in Christ have effectively devised their own message of salvation. Holy Scripture never separates the offer of the gospel from the purpose of God to save sinners by faith in Jesus Christ.
The reason why we Reformed adhere to the indefinite term, "sinner," is because it gives the hearer the warrant to receive and rest upon Christ alone for salvation as He is offered in the gospel. Any and every hearer has this warrant to believe in Christ without determining whether or not he is elect. It also requires him to assent to the judgment of the law that he is a condemned sinner and to see his need of a Savior.
With regard to individual election and reprobation the purpose of God remains a secret at the point the gospel is offered.
- But the purpose of God for the salvation of sinners indefinitely is revealed in the gospel.
- Likewise the purpose of God to save those who believe in Christ is also revealed in the gospel.
- Likewise the purpose of God to leave unbelievers in a state of condemnation is also revealed in the gospel.
- Furthermore, those who believe to the saving of their souls demonstrate they are elect. Otherwise the apostles could not have addressed anyone as "elect," not even in the judgment of charity. Saving faith reveals the purpose of God to save individuals, and that faith is a witness of God in their souls concerning God's purpose.
- Likewise, those who remain unbelievers and never exercise faith demonstrate the purpose of God to leave them in their sins and to suffer the punishment of them. Their actions also reveal the secret purpose of God.
In short, some of God's decrees remain a secret, not all of them; those who are elect and those who are reprobate at the time of the gospel offer is one of those secrets. Nevertheless we depend upon the revelation of God's decrees in the gospel to understand the doctrine of salvation, as well as to be able to discern between those who are saved and those who perish.
Faith is only required as a condition to interest the sinner in the Savior, and God gives this faith to those whom He desires to save. Salvation is not a precept that is left unfulfilled. It is a promise which is truthfully fulfilled in the salvation of those who believe. To deny this is to deny the doctrines of grace.
Universalizing salvation makes the offer insincere. God has not purposed salvation for all men. Christ has not accomplished salvation for all men. The Spirit does not apply salvation to all men. To offer universal salvation is to make God say one thing and do another. It is the definite salvation of a particular people which is offered in the gospel. Hence the requirement of faith, and the threatening of judgment on those who will not believe. It is stated in indefinite terms because the offer is made by preachers to sinners indiscriminately, without respect to election and reprobation.
Let me put this in the plainest possible terms. Advocates of the so-called well-meant offer preach that God desires to save those who will not believe; and they claim that this is God's revealed will. This is not the biblical offer of the gospel. The biblical offer of the gospel is, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. The true gospel reveals that God desires the salvation of those who believe. There is no desire for the salvation of men irrespective of faith.
AMR
Sonnet
New member
I fail as a human but I did not come here to sow discord. Your posts have been full of ad hominems GD. I'd prefer to debate without them.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Oh, what ad hominems are you accusing me of?
Show me and perhaps I'll see they were unwarranted.
glorydaz
Well-known member
There are so many things I can agree with in this post, and I see that much of what people claim about Reformed Theology just isn't true....perhaps misunderstood. Just like what Evil Eye was saying about me wasn't true. Anyway, I put spoiler tags around most of your post so I could highlight this one statement, and it is a big sticking point for me.
"God gives this faith to those whom He desires to save."
You're speaking of saving faith here, and I'm pretty sure we will not be able to agree, but I put it out there for further discussion, nonetheless. The fact that you say God gives us believing faith means man has no requirement to believe at all. Yet you also say we are commanded to believe (which I agree with).
I know we've discussed this before, and a couple of other sticking points, but I also want you to know that I appreciate the time you take to make your position as clear as possible, in spite of the slings and arrows that are hurled your way....unfairly, I think. We bear with one another as we grow in grace. Blessings to you, AMR.
Sonnet
New member
This statement clearly says Jesus did not die for all.
Jesus says: "for God so loved the world..."
The world is all people.
And He says: "whoever believes in Him shall not perish..."
So it is clearly says that you have to believe in Him to be saved.
Why are you arguing so much for this simple fact? I am so flabbergasted that no one point that out to you and your friends.
Jesus came for the sinners... not the religious...
He railed against the self proclaimed .. “regenerate”.
You couldn’t be more wrong... T dawg...
Sonnet is making a fool out of you... and your own pride and self righteousness is his easy leverage.
In scripture... people asked... what must I do to be saved...?
There is a definitive good news answer. Sincerely t-dawg... you are a false witness full of hostility and negativity.
I apologize for saying d bag earlier and have been corrected appropriately... What I meant was stiff necked, know it all that accuses others of what you are guilty of...
September 30, 2017
October 3, 2017
glorydaz
Well-known member
Yes, He loves all people. So?
You don't see that word "whoever"?
That's what I say. Duh.
What simple fact am I arguing?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Sonnet
New member
glorydaz
Well-known member
Asked and answered :troll:
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Faith and Repentance - A Grant From God
Faith and Repentance - A Grant From God
I understand the differences expressed above. They arise from the Reformed view of the total inability of those in Adam. I will probably respond with more detail than is expected by some, but the topic is worth a deeper dive. Like you, I will use some spoiler tags to make the post less visually objectionable in hopes that all will take it into full consideration. My apologies in advance.
We Reformed believe that fallen man possesses no moral ability to muster up faith on their own accord. Faith and repentance are something that must be granted by God, for example, as in Acts 11:18, 2 Tim. 2:25, 2 Peter 1:3-4. Faith and repentance are the firstfruits of re-birth (regeneration).
A person so reborn now possesses the moral ability to believe and repent.
The person so reborn will not not believe and repent, for he or she will genuinely will to not not believe and repent.
In other words, rebirth (regeneration) is wholly monergistic—God the Holy Spirit’s work alone—while the subsequent grant of faith and repentance is synergistic. God is not doing the believing or the repenting for the born-again person. Nevertheless, God is working in them to do and to will (Eph. 2:8-10) and His work is not in vain...ever. Those born anew will believe and not ever be lost.
Then what of the statement often made by not a few, such as:
It is a requirement of believers to develop faith.
This duty to love God and neighbor existed before the fall of Adam. He was made upright. In his originally created state, Adam loved God. This is the ideal of God for us, making man such that his will was always for the good. It remains the ideal of God for man.
The original unfallen man is the pattern for all mankind. God has not lost sight of what He originally made, despite the dire state of man after the Fall. Our love of God is therefore still obligatory, and the means through which it is to be now realized given the Fall of Adam, namely faith and repentance, are likewise obligatory. All mankind owe God love and trust by the very fact that all are His rational creatures. Adam had the ability to love and trust God before the Fall. All are still responsible to love and trust God despite the Fall, and yet while in our unregenerate state (in Adam), we do not have the ability to do so.
Note here that an imperative (the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.) cannot be deduced from an indicative (man has the creaturely power within him to do as he is told). For example, Romanists historically have assumed that the biblical call to perfection implied its possibility.
Allow me to explain this imperative and indicative notion a wee bit more:
Moreover, in addition to Rome’s assumptions that the biblical call to perfection implied its possibility, others adopted similar thinking in assuming that some seed of righteousness (much as in Rome’s notion of prevenient grace) remains present in all those in Adam such that they can rightly choose (cognitively choose to believe upon the wooing of the Holy Spirit)) or wrongly choose (resist the Holy Spirit unto eternal death). In these views, one cannot escape the claim that if the Holy Spirit woos/draws all equally, then those who choose wisely must have possessed something unique in themselves over those that did not. Or, it must be assumed that the Holy Spirit is not equally wooing/drawings all men, making God a debtor (Hebrews 6:10) and contingent being to the perceived decisions of man.
Thanks be to God Luther (and the Apostle Paul) knew better! That is one of the reasons why we Protestants protest.
What can be and what ought to be are not necessarily coordinate. That all who hear the Good News are under obligation (duty) to believe and repent (irrespective of election or reprobation) is not disproved by the reality of the fallen mind. After all, the elect had carnal minds, too, when they first heard the gospel. God's command to believe presupposes man's ability to do so. ß I hope all caught that last statement!
But first, a small sidebar related to “ought to” and the being of God:
We Reformed make the statement “God's command to believe presupposes man's ability to do so” firstly because original man, the pattern for all mankind not yet fallen, possessed this ability to believe. Secondly, we point to the renewal of that ability in rebirth (regeneration), by the power of the Holy Spirit upon the will of those who will believe so that they can receive and embrace the gospel offer.
[Note: Hyper-Calvinists, such as beloved57, will deny this "duty-faith" principle. The deny it on the basis that man now has no ability to believe, but we Reformed/Calvinists will rightly respond that the creditor (God) does not lose His right simply because the debtor has lost his estate.]
In other words, the ability remains in all, albeit that the original ability in the first man, Adam, was marred by the corruption of the Fall, yet is restored by the regenerative power of the Holy Spirit. Once so restored, the re-born person will believe and repent.
So let’s put all this together by answering plainly the question:
How can our perfectly just God "command all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30), when the command is impossible to obey?
1. How can God command people to obey the law knowing it was impossible for them to do so? (Rom. 3:20). A command does not necessarily imply ability. This is sufficiently clear in the case of the law.
2. Man willingly (though his will is in bondage to sin) refuses to obey God and chooses sin. He is not forced to sin, he sins willingly.
3. How else can man be responsible for not obeying God seeing that his nature is sinful? He, that is, man, or the human race, as represented in Adam, had ability to will and to do what is good, and lost it by sin; and that, therefore, he is responsible for the want of it.
4. Man was able to obey the law, to discharge this whole duty, in the condition in which he was created. If he is not in a different condition—one in which he is no longer able to discharge this duty—does not remove or invalidate his obligation to perform it.
In summary, I find that Scripture teaches us that fallen man is duty-bound to believe and repent in Christ—even though left to himself he is unable. It is plain from even our every day walk of life, that in most normative situations what we ought to do in no way presupposes we can do, yet we are responsible, nonetheless. Biblically speaking, responsibility to God does not imply or necessitate ability on our part. Responsibility assumes there is One that justly holds us to account. Yet, the basis and motive for the gospel call is not man's duty, but the grace of God in Christ. God everywhere in Scripture commands what man cannot supply, such that we may pray in earnest: Demand what You will, O Lord, and give what You demand.
AMR
Faith and Repentance - A Grant From God
Kind words. Thank you, sister.
I understand the differences expressed above. They arise from the Reformed view of the total inability of those in Adam. I will probably respond with more detail than is expected by some, but the topic is worth a deeper dive. Like you, I will use some spoiler tags to make the post less visually objectionable in hopes that all will take it into full consideration. My apologies in advance.
We Reformed believe that fallen man possesses no moral ability to muster up faith on their own accord. Faith and repentance are something that must be granted by God, for example, as in Acts 11:18, 2 Tim. 2:25, 2 Peter 1:3-4. Faith and repentance are the firstfruits of re-birth (regeneration).
A person so reborn now possesses the moral ability to believe and repent.
The person so reborn will not not believe and repent, for he or she will genuinely will to not not believe and repent.
In other words, rebirth (regeneration) is wholly monergistic—God the Holy Spirit’s work alone—while the subsequent grant of faith and repentance is synergistic. God is not doing the believing or the repenting for the born-again person. Nevertheless, God is working in them to do and to will (Eph. 2:8-10) and His work is not in vain...ever. Those born anew will believe and not ever be lost.
Then what of the statement often made by not a few, such as:
It is a requirement of believers to develop faith.
Spoiler
This duty to love God and neighbor existed before the fall of Adam. He was made upright. In his originally created state, Adam loved God. This is the ideal of God for us, making man such that his will was always for the good. It remains the ideal of God for man.
The original unfallen man is the pattern for all mankind. God has not lost sight of what He originally made, despite the dire state of man after the Fall. Our love of God is therefore still obligatory, and the means through which it is to be now realized given the Fall of Adam, namely faith and repentance, are likewise obligatory. All mankind owe God love and trust by the very fact that all are His rational creatures. Adam had the ability to love and trust God before the Fall. All are still responsible to love and trust God despite the Fall, and yet while in our unregenerate state (in Adam), we do not have the ability to do so.
Note here that an imperative (the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.) cannot be deduced from an indicative (man has the creaturely power within him to do as he is told). For example, Romanists historically have assumed that the biblical call to perfection implied its possibility.
Allow me to explain this imperative and indicative notion a wee bit more:
Spoiler
Moreover, in addition to Rome’s assumptions that the biblical call to perfection implied its possibility, others adopted similar thinking in assuming that some seed of righteousness (much as in Rome’s notion of prevenient grace) remains present in all those in Adam such that they can rightly choose (cognitively choose to believe upon the wooing of the Holy Spirit)) or wrongly choose (resist the Holy Spirit unto eternal death). In these views, one cannot escape the claim that if the Holy Spirit woos/draws all equally, then those who choose wisely must have possessed something unique in themselves over those that did not. Or, it must be assumed that the Holy Spirit is not equally wooing/drawings all men, making God a debtor (Hebrews 6:10) and contingent being to the perceived decisions of man.
Thanks be to God Luther (and the Apostle Paul) knew better! That is one of the reasons why we Protestants protest.
What can be and what ought to be are not necessarily coordinate. That all who hear the Good News are under obligation (duty) to believe and repent (irrespective of election or reprobation) is not disproved by the reality of the fallen mind. After all, the elect had carnal minds, too, when they first heard the gospel. God's command to believe presupposes man's ability to do so. ß I hope all caught that last statement!
But first, a small sidebar related to “ought to” and the being of God:
Spoiler
We Reformed make the statement “God's command to believe presupposes man's ability to do so” firstly because original man, the pattern for all mankind not yet fallen, possessed this ability to believe. Secondly, we point to the renewal of that ability in rebirth (regeneration), by the power of the Holy Spirit upon the will of those who will believe so that they can receive and embrace the gospel offer.
[Note: Hyper-Calvinists, such as beloved57, will deny this "duty-faith" principle. The deny it on the basis that man now has no ability to believe, but we Reformed/Calvinists will rightly respond that the creditor (God) does not lose His right simply because the debtor has lost his estate.]
In other words, the ability remains in all, albeit that the original ability in the first man, Adam, was marred by the corruption of the Fall, yet is restored by the regenerative power of the Holy Spirit. Once so restored, the re-born person will believe and repent.
So let’s put all this together by answering plainly the question:
How can our perfectly just God "command all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30), when the command is impossible to obey?
1. How can God command people to obey the law knowing it was impossible for them to do so? (Rom. 3:20). A command does not necessarily imply ability. This is sufficiently clear in the case of the law.
2. Man willingly (though his will is in bondage to sin) refuses to obey God and chooses sin. He is not forced to sin, he sins willingly.
3. How else can man be responsible for not obeying God seeing that his nature is sinful? He, that is, man, or the human race, as represented in Adam, had ability to will and to do what is good, and lost it by sin; and that, therefore, he is responsible for the want of it.
4. Man was able to obey the law, to discharge this whole duty, in the condition in which he was created. If he is not in a different condition—one in which he is no longer able to discharge this duty—does not remove or invalidate his obligation to perform it.
In summary, I find that Scripture teaches us that fallen man is duty-bound to believe and repent in Christ—even though left to himself he is unable. It is plain from even our every day walk of life, that in most normative situations what we ought to do in no way presupposes we can do, yet we are responsible, nonetheless. Biblically speaking, responsibility to God does not imply or necessitate ability on our part. Responsibility assumes there is One that justly holds us to account. Yet, the basis and motive for the gospel call is not man's duty, but the grace of God in Christ. God everywhere in Scripture commands what man cannot supply, such that we may pray in earnest: Demand what You will, O Lord, and give what You demand.
AMR
musterion
Well-known member
You wish. For some reason I cannot fathom, people continue to take seriously an agnostic who pretends to agonize over who God wants to save or doesn't, when you've said you doubt He even exists.
glorydaz
Well-known member
:e4e:
Wow, there is a lot there. I'll have to go piecemeal. You know me....I can only take small bites, so this is the main point I can't swallow. And since it's right at the beginning, I may as well bring it up.
Sin entered the world....not humanity. I understand the "In Adam" idea of headship, but there is nothing there about our nature being any different than Adam's. He sinned exactly like we do...through the act of disobedience. The same with Christ. His nature was the same as ours. He was perfect because he was obedient...therefore without sin.
Hebrews 2:15-17
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
The idea of a "sin nature" is not supported in Scripture.
I know, I'm one of those long names that denies the doctrine of Original Sin.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Gee whiz. I just gave you a bad rep when I wanted a good rep. Sorry, brother. I didn't mean it.:doh:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If it is impossible for a person to obey the law then why do we read this?:
"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death" (Ro.7:9-10).
In what way could it be said that the commandment was ordained to life if no one has the ability to keep it?
Here Paul says that it is the doers of the law who shall be justified:
"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Ro.2:13).
If it was theoretically impossible for those under the law to be justified before God by law-keeping then it certainly would make no sense for Paul to say that "the doers of the law shall be justified."
Let's ask the guy who wrote those passages.
Whoops!
Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Things that differ, are not...the same.
Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5, Jer