What is Jesus saying in John 8:58 and what is he not saying?

[TrevorL]

Greetings again oatmeal,

You've done the best that any anti-Christ heretic could ever hope to do, with John 5:18, on behalf of your anti-Biblical cause, and yet, your best, of necessity, amounts to naught but a heap of dung.
A recap:
Here are three Bible truths given in John 5:18, which you, for the sake of trying to bolster your anti-Christ heresy, oppose:
Jesus had broken the sabbath

Regardless of your "evidence" if Jesus had broken God's laws concerning the Sabbath he would sinned therefore would not qualify as a lamb without spot or blemish.
He would have disqualified himself as man's Redeemer.

Yes, 7djengo is intent of not distinguishing between the way the Pharisees administered the Sabbath and the actual teaching of the Sabbath in the Law of Moses. He also continues his normal invective. I wonder if he speaks to his own family and “friends” with similar invective.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[7djengo7]

Regardless of your "evidence" if Jesus had broken God's laws concerning the Sabbath he would sinned therefore would not qualify as a lamb without spot or blemish.

He would have disqualified himself as man's Redeemer.

For that matter if He was God, he would have sinned against his own laws.

He would be found a liar

Again, here's John 5:18:

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Not only is it clear, from Scripture, that Jesus never sinned, but also, it is clear, as John here states, that Jesus HAD BROKEN THE SABBATH.

 

[7djengo7]

Greetings again oatmeal,
Yes, 7djengo is intent of not distinguishing between the way the Pharisees administered the Sabbath and the actual teaching of the Sabbath in the Law of Moses. He also continues his normal invective. I wonder if he speaks to his own family and “friends” with similar invective.

Kind regards
Trevor

You're falsely accusing me of levelling invective against you in my stating the truth that you're a Bible-despising, anti-Christ heretic. My stating this truth is, of course, not invective at all; but it is not surprising that you, on account of your heretical rage at being confounded (by the plain simple truth of John 5:18, which you despise), are motivated to misrepresent my truth-telling, here, by saying that it is invective.

Why do you consider it invective to state that an anti-Christ heretic is an anti-Christ heretic? Do you not believe that there really are anti-Christ heretics? I mean, come on: I'm a realist, and so, I'm under no delusion that you, being the anti-Christ heretic that you are, will ever, as such, confess to the truth that you are an anti-Christ heretic. But, in your thinking, would you really wish to say that nobody is an anti-Christ heretic?

Since you obviously despise John, who wrote John 5:18, perhaps you'd also be willing to falsely accuse him of dealing out invective in his statements in 1 John 2:18-19.

What non-Christians--anti-Christians--such as yourself falsely call "invective", Christians such as myself know to be telling the truth.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again oatmeal,

Regardless of your "evidence" if Jesus had broken God's laws concerning the Sabbath he would sinned therefore would not qualify as a lamb without spot or blemish.
He would have disqualified himself as man's Redeemer.

Yes, 7djengo is intent of not distinguishing between the way the Pharisees administered the Sabbath and the actual teaching of the Sabbath in the Law of Moses. He also continues his normal invective. I wonder if he speaks to his own family and “friends” with similar invective.

You're falsely accusing me of levelling invective against you in my stating the truth that you're a Bible-despising, anti-Christ heretic.

I notice that 7djengo has not answered, but added more invective. Btw 7djengo, I was talking about you, not to you as you have added nothing but invective in the last two posts.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[oatmeal]

Again, here's John 5:18:



Not only is it clear, from Scripture, that Jesus never sinned, but also, it is clear, as John here states, that Jesus HAD BROKEN THE SABBATH.

Nice try.

Do you believe the following accusations and statements recorded in scripture about Jesus Christ as true and actually reporting the facts?

Matthew 9:34
But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.

Matthew 12:24
But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Matthew 11:19
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Mark 3:22
And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

Matthew 9:3
And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.

Matthew 13:55 a
Is not this the carpenter's son? ....

Matthew 14:26
And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.

John 5:16
And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

What things? He healed a man with an infirmity

John 5:20
The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

John 8:13
The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

There are many more such false statements about Jesus Christ recorded in scripture

Sadly, you cannot distinguish between false accusations and truth

 

[oatmeal]

You're falsely accusing me of levelling invective against you in my stating the truth that you're a Bible-despising, anti-Christ heretic. My stating this truth is, of course, not invective at all; but it is not surprising that you, on account of your heretical rage at being confounded (by the plain simple truth of John 5:18, which you despise), are motivated to misrepresent my truth-telling, here, by saying that it is invective.

Why do you consider it invective to state that an anti-Christ heretic is an anti-Christ heretic? Do you not believe that there really are anti-Christ heretics? I mean, come on: I'm a realist, and so, I'm under no delusion that you, being the anti-Christ heretic that you are, will ever, as such, confess to the truth that you are an anti-Christ heretic. But, in your thinking, would you really wish to say that nobody is an anti-Christ heretic?

Since you obviously despise John, who wrote John 5:18, perhaps you'd also be willing to falsely accuse him of dealing out invective in his statements in 1 John 2:18-19.

What non-Christians--anti-Christians--such as yourself falsely call "invective", Christians such as myself know to be telling the truth.

Because you are wrong

 

[JudgeRightly]

Nice try.

Nice try?

Are you calling John a liar for stating, not recording another person's words, that Jesus had broken the sabbath?

If so, you are the one bearing false witness here.

John states clearly:

Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:18&version=NKJV

NO ONE is speaking in John 5:18, other than John himself, after the fact, recording exactly what had happened.

Sadly, Oatmeal, you're the one who cannot distinguish between false accusations and truth, and then project your inability onto others in an attempt to defend your position from being shown as false and incorrect.

Do you believe the following accusations and statements recorded in scripture about Jesus Christ as true and actually reporting the facts?

All irrelevant, because all of them (except John 5:16, which I have separated from you post below) are recordings of people's words other than the author's of the book they are recorded in, while what was said in John 5:18 was a statement of fact, not the recorded words of someone other than the author of the book.

John 5:16
And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

Again, no words of anyone in the story are being recorded here, only a record of what had occurred as a statement of fact.

Oatmeal: Do you think John was lying when he stated, for the record, twice, in fact, that Jesus had broken the Sabbath?

 

[oatmeal]

Nice try?

Are you calling John a liar for stating, not recording another person's words, that Jesus had broken the sabbath?

If so, you are the one bearing false witness here.

John states clearly:

Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

NO ONE is speaking in John 5:18, other than John himself, after the fact, recording exactly what had happened.

Sadly, Oatmeal, you're the one who cannot distinguish between false accusations and truth, and then project your inability onto others in an attempt to defend your position from being shown as false and incorrect.



All irrelevant, because all of them (except John 5:16, which I have separated from you post below) are recordings of people's words other than the author's of the book they are recorded in, while what was said in John 5:18 was a statement of fact, not the recorded words of someone other than the author of the book.



Again, no words of anyone in the story are being recorded here, only a record of what had occurred as a statement of fact.

Oatmeal: Do you think John was lying when he stated, for the record, twice, in fact, that Jesus had broken the Sabbath?

So far, no one has shown that Jesus broke the sabbath.

No one has shown that the accusation is true.

You certainly haven't.

Neither has anyone shown that Jesus referring to God as his Father, makes him equal to God.

God is my Father, God is every Christian's Father, does that make all Christians equal to God?

Your alleged case is nonsense.

It is laughable

Those who despise Jesus Christ believe that Jesus broke the Sabbath

Record after record,,when Jesus healed on the Sabbath, you see his enemies accusing him of breaking the Sabbath

 

[JudgeRightly]

So far, no one has shown that Jesus broke the sabbath.

Repeating your argument doesn't make it any less invalid.

BOTH John 5:16 and 5:18 are a record of events by JOHN, the author of the book of John, not an accusation from someone.

Just read them!

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

No one is speaking in EITHER verse.

No one has shown that the accusation is true.

I literally just did.

You certainly haven't.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Neither has anyone shown that Jesus referring to God as his Father, makes him equal to God.

Again, are you calling JOHN a liar?

God is my Father, God is every Christian's Father, does that make all Christians equal to God?

Your non-sequitur is a fallacy, not to mention borderline blasphemy. No righteous creature can claim to be one with God and remain righteous.

Your alleged case is nonsense.

It is laughable

:yawn:

Your denial of what scripture says is getting old.

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

No one is speaking in those verses. Thus, to say that what is said in those verses is false is to call John (the author of the book of John) a liar.

Doing so is bearing false witness of John, and is rejecting scripture in favor of one's beliefs.

You should repent for rejecting God's word.

 

[oatmeal]

Repeating your argument doesn't make it any less invalid.

BOTH John 5:16 and 5:18 are a record of events by JOHN, the author of the book of John, not an accusation from someone.

Just read them!

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

No one is speaking in EITHER verse.



I literally just did.



Saying it doesn't make it so.



Again, are you calling JOHN a liar?



Your non-sequitur is a fallacy, not to mention borderline blasphemy. No righteous creature can claim to be one with God and remain righteous.



:yawn:

Your denial of what scripture says is getting old.

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...8&version=NKJV

No one is speaking in those verses. Thus, to say that what is said in those verses is false is to call John (the author of the book of John) a liar.

Doing so is bearing false witness of John, and is rejecting scripture in favor of one's beliefs.

You should repent for rejecting God's word.

In your opinion, you think you proved that you are right, however, it is clear from the records in scripture it is only Jesus' enemies that accused him and believed that Jesus broke Sabbath

Jesus knew the law concerning God's word regarding the sabbath. He did not break those laws, However, it is clear that Jesus, in his complete obedience to God's laws offended the legalistic anti God crowd

Thus you willingly identify yourself as one of Jesus' false accusers.

John is simply reiterationg the fact that many, (wrongfully) believed that Jesus broke the Sabbath.

Jesus no more broke God's commandments regarding the sabbath, then he broke any of God's commandments, laws, ordinances, etc.

Jesus always did the Father's will. both the will of God written in the OT as well as any and all revelation God gave him

Why would you accuse Jesus of sinning?

 

[JudgeRightly]

In your opinion,

My opinion has nothing to do with this. Why won't you answer my questions?

you think you proved that you are right,

No, I only upheld what scripture says.

Which is this:

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16,18&version=NKJV

however, it is clear from the records in scripture it is only Jesus' enemies that accused him and believed that Jesus broke Sabbath

So John was an enemy of Jesus?

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16,18&version=NKJV

You better be correct, Oatmeal, because the alternative is that you are bearing false witness against countless millions of Christians for believing that Jesus had, in fact, broken the sabbath, and that Jesus had, in fact, made Himself equal with God.

Jesus knew the law concerning God's word regarding the sabbath.

You apparently don't.

He did not break those laws,

Rejecting what scripture says in favor of your own preconceived notions isn't good, Oatmeal.

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . .Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16,18&version=NKJV

No one is accusing Jesus of anything in these two verses.

John is stating clearly that Jesus did these things.

Was John lying? An enemy of Jesus? or was he accurately describing what had happened?

However, it is clear that Jesus, in his complete obedience to God's laws offended the legalistic anti God crowd

And?

Thus you willingly identify yourself as one of Jesus' false accusers.

Bearing false witness is a sin, Oatmeal.

You should tell God you're sorry for bearing false witness.

John is simply reiterating the fact that many, (wrongfully) believed that Jesus broke the Sabbath.

So then why didn't John record, like every other instance you listed, the enemies of God speaking, rather than state, as a matter of fact, that Jesus had done those things?

In other words, why do we not see this:

"For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, and accused him of doing these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, saying, "You not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was Your Father, making Yourself equal with God." - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16,18&version=NKJV

Instead of this:

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16,18&version=NKJV

Jesus no more broke God's commandments regarding the sabbath, then he broke any of God's commandments, laws, ordinances, etc.

Again, John lied about Jesus breaking the Sabbath?

Jesus always did the Father's will. Both the will of God written in the OT as well as any and all revelation God gave him

No one said otherwise.

Why would you accuse Jesus of sinning?

Where did I accuse Him of such?

Please explain how you think if Jesus had broke the sabbath in this passage, he would have sinned. You can't, because your paradigm of beliefs prevents you from considering any alternatives.

Your problem, Oatmeal, is that your position doesn't allow you to consider the possibility that Jesus, in breaking the Sabbath, wasn't sinning at all, because your position doesn't allow for him to have broken the Sabbath, which is exactly what John recorded Him having done, not once, but twice, and not only breaking the Sabbath, but your position ALSO doesn't allow for John to be correct when John said that Jesus made Himself equal with God.

My position, however, allows the text to speak for itself, in the way it was written, without having to try to explain away what was being said.

John (not the Jews, the Pharisees, the enemies of Jesus) said:

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16,18&version=NKJV

Was John lying?

Why would Jesus have been sinning if He had broken the Sabbath?

 

[oatmeal]

My opinion has nothing to do with this. Why won't you answer my questions?



No, I only upheld what scripture says.

Which is this:

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16,18&version=NKJV



So John was an enemy of Jesus?

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16,18&version=NKJV

You better be correct, Oatmeal, because the alternative is that you are bearing false witness against countless millions of Christians for believing that Jesus had, in fact, broken the sabbath, and that Jesus had, in fact, made Himself equal with God.



You apparently don't.



Rejecting what scripture says in favor of your own preconceived notions isn't good, Oatmeal.

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . .Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16,18&version=NKJV

No one is accusing Jesus of anything in these two verses.

John is stating clearly that Jesus did these things.

Was John lying? An enemy of Jesus? or was he accurately describing what had happened?



And?



Bearing false witness is a sin, Oatmeal.

You should tell God you're sorry for bearing false witness.



So then why didn't John record, like every other instance you listed, the enemies of God speaking, rather than state, as a matter of fact, that Jesus had done those things?

In other words, why do we not see this:

"For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, and accused him of doing these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, saying, "You not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was Your Father, making Yourself equal with God." - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16,18&version=NKJV

Instead of this:

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16,18&version=NKJV



Again, John lied about Jesus breaking the Sabbath?



No one said otherwise.



Where did I accuse Him of such?

Please explain how you think if Jesus had broke the sabbath in this passage, he would have sinned. You can't, because your paradigm of beliefs prevents you from considering any alternatives.

Your problem, Oatmeal, is that your position doesn't allow you to consider the possibility that Jesus, in breaking the Sabbath, wasn't sinning at all, because your position doesn't allow for him to have broken the Sabbath, which is exactly what John recorded Him having done, not once, but twice, and not only breaking the Sabbath, but your position ALSO doesn't allow for John to be correct when John said that Jesus made Himself equal with God.

My position, however, allows the text to speak for itself, in the way it was written, without having to try to explain away what was being said.

John (not the Jews, the Pharisees, the enemies of Jesus) said:

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16,18&version=NKJV

Was John lying?

Why would Jesus have been sinning if He had broken the Sabbath?

Why won't I answer your questions? for one thing this thread is not about whether Jesus kept the sabbath, which of course he did, He would not be always doing his Father's will, as he made plain he did, if he went around breaking the laws of Moses.

Nothing he did on the sabbath could be construed as breaking the sabbath as God instituted it.

He healed people on the sabbath, that does not break the Sabbath, regardless of the opinions of the enemies of God and Christ.

He did good works on the Sabbath, that does not break the Sabbath as God instituted the requirements of keeping the Sabbath.

The enemies of God and of His Christ accused the son of God of breaking the Sabbath, but they were enemies of the truth

When you realize that it was the enemies of the Christ that said he broke the Sabbath, then you realize is that John is reporting what unbelievers and God rejecters thought he was doing.

John also wrote the following

John 7:20
The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

Was John saying that the people were right? or was John simply reporting what others falsely accused Jesus of doing?

 

[7djengo7]

Do you believe the following accusations and statements recorded in scripture about Jesus Christ as true and actually reporting the facts?

Matthew 9:34
But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.

What Matthew states--'But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils'--is true; Matthew is here actually reporting a fact about the Pharisees. Do you disagree?

What the Pharisees stated--'He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils'--is false; the Pharisees, here, were leveling a false accusation against Jesus. Do you disagree?

Matthew 12:24
But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

What Matthew states--'But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils'--is true; Matthew is here actually reporting a fact about the Pharisees. Do you disagree?

What the Pharisees stated--'This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils'--is false; the Pharisees, here, were leveling a false accusation against Jesus. Do you disagree?

What point are you trying to make? These, along with all the other verses you listed, are entirely useless to your cause.

 

[7djengo7]

Greetings again oatmeal,

I notice that 7djengo has not answered, but added more invective. Btw 7djengo, I was talking about you, not to you as you have added nothing but invective in the last two posts.

Kind regards
Trevor

7djengo7 "has not answered" what question?

I suggest you communicate via private messaging with oatmeal, your fellow anti-Christ heretic, if you are really desirous of me being incapable of reading and commenting on what you write.

It's interesting that, not only do you contradict John's plain and clear statement that Jesus had broken the sabbath, but you also falsely accuse John of invective in what he says in 1 John 2:18-19, since, according to you, to call anti-Christ heretics "anti-Christ heretics" is to be guilty of invective. You oppose John, of course, because, being the anti-Christ heretic you are, you despise the Bible, part of which was penned by John.

 

[7djengo7]

So far, no one has shown that Jesus broke the sabbath.

John has, in John 5:18, when he records that Jesus "had [not only] broken the sabbath".

No one has shown that the accusation is true.

John's recording the truth that Jesus had broken the sabbath is not an accusation.

You certainly haven't.

Since you contradict John--that is to say, since you contradict Scripture--what more could anyone say? We directly quote, and affirm, John's record that Jesus had broken the sabbath, and you flat out deny John's record that Jesus had broken the sabbath. There's no possibility of reasoning with you from the Scriptures, since your starting point is your ironclad commitment to your anti-Bible heresy.

Neither has anyone shown that Jesus referring to God as his Father, makes him equal to God.

Again, since you contradict John, what can anybody else do for you? John clearly records that Jesus was "making himself equal with God", but you flat out contradict that Jesus was "making himself equal with God".

Those who despise Jesus Christ believe that Jesus broke the Sabbath

Those who love Jesus Christ believe that Jesus broke the sabbath--and that He did so without sin. For instance, John--who loves, and does not despise, Jesus Christ--believes (and thus, records, in writing John 5:18) that Jesus had broken the sabbath.

Record after record,,when Jesus healed on the Sabbath, you see his enemies accusing him of breaking the Sabbath

In John 5:18, we find no accusation recorded against Jesus. Rather, we find John recording that Jesus had broken the sabbath. John 5:18 is a record of Jesus having broken the sabbath.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again oatmeal,

7djengo7 "has not answered" what question?

Yes, 7djengo7 still has not answered the question but added more invective. The issue between the Pharisees and Jesus is clearly stated in the following:
Mark 3:1–6 (KJV): 1 And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand. 2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him. 3 And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth. 4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace. 5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other. 6 And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him.

I suggest you communicate via private messaging with oatmeal, your fellow anti-Christ heretic, if you are really desirous of me being incapable of reading and commenting on what you write.

I do not mind 7djengo7 reading what I write. 7djengo7 has used abuse and invective publicly, open to other readers of this thread, and as such 7djengo7’s abuse and invective needs to be called out publicly.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[7djengo7]

Greetings again oatmeal, Yes, 7djengo7 still has not answered the question but added more invective. The issue between the Pharisees and Jesus is clearly stated in the following:
Mark 3:1–6 (KJV): 1 And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand. 2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him. 3 And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth. 4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace. 5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other. 6 And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him.
I do not mind 7djengo7 reading what I write. 7djengo7 has used abuse and invective publicly, open to other readers of this thread, and as such 7djengo7’s abuse and invective needs to be called out publicly.

Kind regards
Trevor

You're continuing your temper tantrum because, in your attempts to bolster your anti-Christ heresy, you've been dismally foiled by the simple, straightforward clarity of what John records in John 5:18--namely, the truths that Jesus had broken the sabbath, that Jesus said God is His Father, and that Jesus was making Himself equal with God. You and I both know very well that you've got nothing, but it might be some time before you actually cool off and mellow out, and take leave of your grumbly pettiness. Back to the drawing board for you, joker.

 

[oatmeal]

My opinion has nothing to do with this. Why won't you answer my questions?



No, I only upheld what scripture says.

Which is this:

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16,18&version=NKJV



So John was an enemy of Jesus?

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16,18&version=NKJV

You better be correct, Oatmeal, because the alternative is that you are bearing false witness against countless millions of Christians for believing that Jesus had, in fact, broken the sabbath, and that Jesus had, in fact, made Himself equal with God.



You apparently don't.



Rejecting what scripture says in favor of your own preconceived notions isn't good, Oatmeal.

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . .Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16,18&version=NKJV

No one is accusing Jesus of anything in these two verses.

John is stating clearly that Jesus did these things.

Was John lying? An enemy of Jesus? or was he accurately describing what had happened?



And?



Bearing false witness is a sin, Oatmeal.

You should tell God you're sorry for bearing false witness.



So then why didn't John record, like every other instance you listed, the enemies of God speaking, rather than state, as a matter of fact, that Jesus had done those things?

In other words, why do we not see this:

"For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, and accused him of doing these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, saying, "You not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was Your Father, making Yourself equal with God." - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16,18&version=NKJV

Instead of this:

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16,18&version=NKJV



Again, John lied about Jesus breaking the Sabbath?



No one said otherwise.



Where did I accuse Him of such?

Please explain how you think if Jesus had broke the sabbath in this passage, he would have sinned. You can't, because your paradigm of beliefs prevents you from considering any alternatives.

Your problem, Oatmeal, is that your position doesn't allow you to consider the possibility that Jesus, in breaking the Sabbath, wasn't sinning at all, because your position doesn't allow for him to have broken the Sabbath, which is exactly what John recorded Him having done, not once, but twice, and not only breaking the Sabbath, but your position ALSO doesn't allow for John to be correct when John said that Jesus made Himself equal with God.

My position, however, allows the text to speak for itself, in the way it was written, without having to try to explain away what was being said.

John (not the Jews, the Pharisees, the enemies of Jesus) said:

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. . . . Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:16,18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:16,18&version=NKJV

Was John lying?

Why would Jesus have been sinning if He had broken the Sabbath?

If you wish to misrepresent scripture so that you can hold onto your ungodly and pagan narrative that is your problem

It would be interesting to see you point out what you find that Jesus did that actually broke God's Sabbath laws

Was it healing on the Sabbath?

Was it taking a walk on the Sabbath?

Seems to me the son of God understood His Father's will much better than his accusers.

John is simply reporting the false conclusions of Jesus' enemies

 

[TrevorL]

You're continuing your temper tantrum because, in your attempts to bolster your anti-Christ heresy, you've been dismally foiled by the simple, straightforward clarity of what John records in John 5:18--namely, the truths that Jesus had broken the sabbath, that Jesus said God is His Father, and that Jesus was making Himself equal with God. You and I both know very well that you've got nothing, but it might be some time before you actually cool off and mellow out, and take leave of your grumbly pettiness. Back to the drawing board for you, joker.

To quote part of oatmeal's response:

It would be interesting to see you point out what you find that Jesus did that actually broke God's Sabbath laws
Was it healing on the Sabbath?

 

[oatmeal]

To quote part of oatmeal's response:

Trevor,

It is a good thing that we have received the gift of eternal life, for we would have to wait forever for his response