no actually that is what King Jimmy’s translators translate...what THEY think John writes in the Greek...John having written it in Greek and using the Greek root word to loosen...deriving its meaning from a dissolving or unbinding or unfastening...Jimmy's translators have been exposed elsewhere as error prone and agenda driven...so let’s be more careful...thanks...John says:
again translators translating from Greek chose to use this form of loosen as John used this form of loosen ONE time in the Greek New Testament...kinda like Paul stole from the Hebrew language the word Sabbath to write in Greek a sabbatismos to write "a Sabbath keeping remains" in Greek...a word not found again in Greek...which is still for His people by the way...Heb 4:9You directly contradict John:
Of course, that's NOT what John says. John does NOT say:
Rather, here's what John says:
well John was listing the grievances of the Jews yes...the reasons they sought all the more to kill Him...Just as Jesus, according to John, said that God was his Father, Jesus, according to John, was making Himself equal with God, and Jesus, according to John, had broken the sabbath.
ouch...feel better?I just NEED to believe the Bible, and since the Bible declares that Jesus had broken the sabbath, I NEED to believe that Jesus had broken the sabbath...not sure why you NEED to lie, and contradict the Bible so bad...wait, yes I do...you are of your father, the devil.
John also says he was an evil doer malefactor sorcerer John 18:30 do you believe your bible? It says it right there...John even says “He has a demon and is mad” John 10:20...why DO you listen to him? Oh my...Matthew even says “Let Him be crucified” Matt27:23 do you agree? Is right there Matthew said it...believe your bible will you...
Or is this what John (and Matthew) say because it is what the Jews said...
John made an accurate list of Jewish reasons to kill Him 1) the Sabbath was loosened or as Jimmy’s team said was broken 2) He said Yah was His Father 3) making Himself equal with God...
But did Yahushua do the last one? I mean is saying “Our Father” equating ourselves with Him? Hmmmm...
ummm now the human tradition is the majority which as you claim as did the Jews He broke the Sabbath...which in greek had more to do with loosening as John could have used the Greek word for break or disobeyed or sinned as that is what breaking His Law actually is...It's funny how you're trying to bind up the Scripture, here, by your human tradition of adding things to Scripture. Whereas John states that Jesus had broken the sabbath, you write your own replacement for John's Scripture by telling us that John states that Jesus had "loosened the Sabbath from the Pharisee's [sic] grip".
John was a devout Jew who did not seek to kill Him...as he apparently realized his fellow Jews had a silly list of reasons to kill Him.In John 5:18, John is reporting what Jesus did; in John 5:18, John is not presenting a record of anything that may or may not have been "the perspective of the Pharisees".
Sorry--that's not what John says. John does not say:
Pharisees had added their own list of commandment keeping which Yahushua was unbinding/loosening/dissolving/breakingRather, John says:
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Why do you call Pharisee-made commandments, "the Sabbath"? John, of course, certainly does no such thing.
ummm yes John 10:33 they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy...John didnt although he wrote He made Himself God...even Matthew wrote “This Man blasphemes!” Matt 9:3 so should John and Matthew have picked up stones too?According to John, in John 5:18, the Jews "sought the more to kill" Jesus because Jesus
And, of course, John nowhere says that Jesus was blaspheming, nor that the Jews tried to kill Jesus for blaspheming.
- had broken the sabbath
- said that God was His Father
- was making Himself equal with God
ouch...yikes...teeth gnashing...[No he doesn't, you self-righteous, anti-Christ, heretic sinner. LOL @ your stupidity for having just told me that John is writing "their perspective" when he writes "he...said also that God was His Father".
is what King Jimmy's translators translated from the Greek yes indeed...and yup He did and knowing they sought to kill Him...NOT John...John didn't...is why He continued to say...until the end of the chapter...more on that later...
- Biblico-historical fact: Jesus had broken the sabbath
- Biblico-historical fact: Jesus said that God was His Father
- Biblico-historical fact: Jesus was making Himself equal with God
yes...exactly...Jews sought not John...John knew He merely loosened the Sabbath freed it from their traditions...didn't SIN as well that would be breaking the Law...is why John didn't write that...John, in John 5:18, does not tell us what the Jews thought. Rather, among other things, John here tells us what the Jews sought: "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him"
yes...He called the Almighty One His Father...Abba...and taught us to do the same...do we then also equate ourselves with the Almighty Ones? NO of course not...is why we do NOT read it as He equated Himself with the Father...but the Jews did...Think of the unmitigated stupidity of what you're claiming, here: you're saying that John is telling us the Jews THOUGHT that "[Jesus] said also that God was His Father", and then you go on to claim that Jesus then corrected these Jews for thinking what you say they thought.
In order to be able to correct someone for thinking that
you missed...I am claiming by saying He said the Almighty One is His Father Yahushua is NOT EQUATING Himself to Him...as why the Jews sought to kill Him and not John...I am not either...you? I mean you think He broke the Sabbath and so did away with it..."[Jesus] said also that God was His Father", it would need to be false that "[Jesus] said also that God was His Father". So, why are you claiming that it is false that "[Jesus] said also that God was His Father"?
good...yes perhaps...Perhaps so,
in a list of other grievances they compiled seeking to kill Him...John of course continues the discourse to the end of the chapter...allowing Yahushua to clarify...though John, in John 5:18, does not tell us that they thought He was making Himself equal with God. Rather, John tells us that Jesus was making Himself equal with God.
I mean if John actually thought that...He really should be more clear and as it would have been so much more helpful to readers who struggled for hundreds of years to insert that equality...
John continues the passage with Yahushua Himself clarifying "the Son can do NOTHING by Himself...UNLESS...the Father..." keep reading...until the end of the chapter John writes. Oh and read what John write Yahushua saying...not inserting or adding your custom or tradition or interpretation to it..."26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man." Who has LIFE IN HIMSELF and GRANTED it another? Hmmmm… Yahushua is clarifying the hierarchy and NOT equating Himself with the Almighty One...that was done hundreds of years later and at fancy councils full of scholars and doctors of the law all dressed pretty dresses I imagine...Where does Jesus refute that He is equal with God? Obviously nowhere.
right...because John at this point did not write "He is equal with the Almighty One!!!" He had listened to Yahushua say 30 "By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me." clearly NOT equating Himself with the One who sent Him...Yahushua is recorded by John who was listening 36 "For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent." Happily Yahushua was talking to the disbelieving Jews and not the other Jew John...who was beginning to not only believe but understand...is why he NEVER clearly wrote Yahushua is EQUAL to YAH...and Christendom struggled for centuries to make that so...building the TrinityWhere? No part of John 5 is a record of Jesus arguing with John about anything.
right but saying the Almighty One is our Abba is NOT the issue...He did say that...taught us to pray it too...are we equating ourselves to the Almighty One? No of course not...disbelieving Jews thought so...is what and why John wrote it...He did say Father MY Father...but also called us His brothers AND mother...IF we do our Father's will...hey put that stone down...haLOL that you are saying it was "the Jewish perspective" which was claiming Jesus said God was His Father.
no John did not...just let Yahushua air it out...until the end of the chapter and beyond...nor did John clearly AFFIRM He equated Himself with the Father...IS WHY the struggle for centuries...how many dead? killed? burnt alive? not just typing on some keyboard "HERETIC!!!"Jesus, of course, nowhere denied that He was equal with God, nor did He deny that, by saying God was His Father, He was making Himself equal with God.
did you even read anything...ever?...of course He Yahushua called the Almighty One His Father...He couldn't do anything unless His Father willed it...read a little more of the chapter...In other words, you are, here, claiming that Jesus denied that He said that God was His Father. Got it.
ok I won't...I am not so inclined to perseverate over John's writing He loosened the Sabbath from Pharisee's restrictions to it...Oh...and don't forget the other part of what you're calling "the Jewish perspective": that Jesus said that God was His Father!
asked and answered...need I say it in Greek?So, according to you, Jesus did not really say that God was His Father--it was merely "the Jewish perspective" that Jesus said that God was His Father.
nope...I address why Jews sought to kill Him for saying it...which John merely writes Yahushua says 41 “I do not accept glory from human beings," why NOT? Because we are to 44 "seek the glory that comes from the only God"So, since you claim that "this Jewish prespective [sic]" is that Jesus said God was His Father, what you're telling me, here, is that "John then writes that even Yahushua denies [He said that God was His Father]".
I don't...if you weren't so apoplectic you would read more carefully what I write...hmmm or more importantly what John writes...So, why do you claim Jesus never said that God was His Father?
again read carefully what is NOT there which is WHY it took centuries for Christendom to come to official conclusion on it...OH WAIT...IT STILL is divided as to the progression of the Spirit...from the Father alone of from both Father and Son...yup still divided after almost 2000 years as John does NOT make the claim that Yahushua says more than what He says...By this, do you mean that Jesus begins making Himself not equal to God? 'Cause, of course, nowhere in John 5 do we find Jesus making Himself not equal to God.
your are getting me dizzy...following your serpentine back and forth...What about their claim that Jesus said that God was His Father? Is Jesus refuting their claim that God was His Father? (After all, remember....you're the one who has told me that it was the Jews' claim that Jesus said that God was His Father.)
Oh I read it...even in Greek and commentaries...and well...43" I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him." did Yahushua know about what was to come about this issue? I mean could He NOT make it more clear...being sent in someone else's name is well...NOT EQUAL to the one SENDING...now true diplomatic preference and protection is provided to the courier of the King as it is as King were there himself...but the messenger is NOT the king...but the message IS the king's...is why the messenger is "protected" and a representative...you follow?LOL Says the self-righteous, Pharisaical hypocrite who refuses to even read verse 18!
so clearly Yahushua states in verse 19 that He can DO NOTHING by Himself but what He sees His Father doing...because whatever the Father does the Son also does...you know to DO His Father's will NOT BECOME THE FATHER...or replace what the Father wants done...His Will His Law...His Character...but you would claim He did away with the Sabbath...by loosening it from the Pharisee's traditions...you give the Jews way too much credit...POWER...to be able to break what the Father determined was to be Holy and Eternal...
nope you don't...see above please...In other words, you're telling me that Jesus never actually said that God was His Father, because (according to you) it was just "the Pharisee's [sic] perspective" that Jesus said that God was His Father, and it was wrong? Got it.
the very Sabbath institutionalized before the fall even...by the Father when He rested after six days of creating...breaking that is going against the Father's will and not His will be done on earth as it is in heaven...as we pray to our Father that it be done...Wait....exactly what (if anything) that you are calling "the Law" are you saying I am having the Son break...or not keep?
you have the Son SIN...as that is what breaking the Law is...John has Him loosening dissolving unbinding the Sabbath from the Pharisee's additional laws...YOU have Him SINNING...
"I am Lord of the Sabbath" gives Him authority as it is His Law too remember the messenger speaks in the KING'S authority...why would the Lord of the Sabbath seek to destroy the very thing authorizing His power...it is His sign His Seal...like Lord of London would ever consider destroying London...or the Lord of the Rings his rings...What (if anything) are you calling "His Own Law", here?
He ALONE is IMMORTAL and seeks to explain that hierarchy...establish HONOR to the elders retaining the oracles and customs handed down to them...of course some children would ask "so who's your daddy?"Are you saying that God the Father honours His father and mother (Exodus 20:12)? Whom would you say is God the Father's father? And whom His mother?
sorry I couldn't understand what you were asking with your foot in your mouth...No wonder you deny that Jesus--the Son--did not really say that God was His Father: if the Son says that God the Father is His Father, apparently, according to you, that must mean that God the Father says that God the Father is God the Father's Father. Oh, and who is God the Father's neighbor?
No. God never lies. But you LIE, every time you write one of your shallow, heretical, Christ-despising, antinomian, anti-Christ posts on TOL.
ok good...so you done?
Hope I clarified that John wrote that 1)Yahushua indeed loosened the Sabbath from the Pharisees additional bindings
B) He did call the Almighty His Father and taught us to do the same and finally to clarify: what the Jews claimed Yahushua was doing by calling Him Father which was equating Himself with the Almighty...
however John then continued to write what Yahushua said to clarify His relationship to His Father...the order of His relationship to His Father He obeys...
and centuries later the church fought to finally settle it as it was NOT CLEARLY written by John...and it decided as the as the Jews did that He had said Father=Son...and even STILL it remains unsettled within Christendom as it is SPLIT between the east and the west as to where does the Spirit come from?...
Why didn't either John or Yahushua make it even MORE clear?...
Ok so let's PRETEND that Yahushua DID break the Sabbath...nevermind invalidating Him as sinless and perfect sacrifice...
Does the One with authority to dispense the original Law abrogate that Law with a secondary command?
For instance "Thou dost NOT Kill/murder"...but then He killed to make skins...smote HOW MANY?...ordered Israel to do the same to woman children animals even the innocent babies...does that mean He revokes the Law for His people? That He now allows them to chose who and when to kill?
How about "Thou dost not make images or worship those made"...yet again has Israel make a bronze serpent...cherubim...etc does that release His people to make their own images and into idols worshipping...Catholics even claim BECAUSE Yahushua became INCARNATE He became visisble and thus we ARE able to make images...and worship/venerate through them to the One adored...
How about "Thou dost NOT commit adultery" and then He has Hosea married a woman with many relationships...are we now allowed to defile our marriage bed?
After all...He did so that means SO CAN WE!!!!
But But But...He broke the Sabbath...SO CAN WE!!!!
Do you see what you do? You EQUATE yourself with the Holy Savior HIMSELF...because He did so can I...
Of you Yahushua says 43"...you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him." as you accept those that did come and said He broke it...and taught it was changed...because it was NOT a perpetual sign between Him and His obedient people.
You accept another christ...a vicar who claims authority to change both TIMES and Laws...
BUT rather THINK NOT...ok? STOP thinking as the slandering Jews did trying stir up the people against him with a claim that poor Stephen taught "Jesus changed the customs Moses delivered to us"...Acts 6:14...Luke was quite clear that allegation was a FALSE WITNESS verse 13 as Stephen did NOT teach Jesus changed the Sabbath...is WHY the Apostles all kept it...
They remembered that Yahushua instructed prayers Matt 24:20 that in the future times of trouble and persecutions that the Sabbath be kept as fleeing is not really "rest" ya dig?
Notice He did NOT ask for prayers that the Temple be preserved or even that they pray they themselves were spared...RAPTURED...but just that the Sabbath be kept Holy...a day of rest...oh and winter times...Yahushua fully expected winter times to continue...
Wonder what you imagine we would be doing if the calendar in Eden was NOT rejected...certainly NOT Ham Dinners on Sunday after church...LOL
Well get ready cuz Isaiah prophesized in the new heaven and the new earth from New Moon to New Moon...Sabbath to Sabbath ALL will worship...Isa. 66:23