ECT What gospel was Paul saved under?

[Interplanner]

You are giving Saul the wrong classification.

1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

LA

If this is MAD, all they've done is confused a specific warning to Israel, and then added the confusion of the translation of Gal 2's gospels. I see Danoh's point about a certain insurmountable failure, but the warning is not another gospel. It prepares for the gospel (and its mission), and it is as severe as Hebrews, but it is not another gospel, it is just a rarified group who is responding to the same message at the risk of the loss of their land. The same gospel in that setting must be responded to rightly to save the land.

I'm stumped that there should be so much hostility by Danoh to reading what many other background scholars have said about these things. He obviously does value others. The background scholars I'm talking about are people who are spending their career on exactly what that final warning was, and its costs, and the reactions of Judaism's leaders to it. The very topic.

I don't see why they don't get the grammar of Gal 2, but there is no other gospel. The DO of those lines is the 'task of preaching' but preaching the same gospel as we know from comparing Peter in Acts 2, 3, 5 to Paul.

P&P are also unified on the warning to Israel to be in the mission of Messiah, not the revolution of the Judaizers.

 

[Right Divider]

If this is MAD, all they've done is confused a specific warning to Israel, and then added the confusion of the translation of Gal 2's gospels.

He's finally coming around!

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Saul was not previously a blasphemer of the kind who can not be forgiven.

The scriptures give us several examples of blasphemy:


Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mark 2:6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
Mark 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

John 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

So, a man falsely claiming the power to forgive the sins of men, a man falsely claiming to be God on earth, and men falsely claiming to be the true church of God are all clearly defined as blasphemy.

It fits the Popes and his priests well.

LA

 

[Interplanner]

He's finally coming around!

No, not coming to confusion; showing that MAD has included it. That's why you didn't quote the whole thing.

The DO's of those phrases is the 'task of preaching' not the Gospel. It cannot therefore be about 2 gospels. I can't reduce it grammatically any further.

 

[Right Divider]

No, not coming to confusion; showing that MAD has included it. That's why you didn't quote the whole thing.

The DO's of those phrases is the 'task of preaching' not the Gospel. It cannot therefore be about 2 gospels. I can't reduce it grammatically any further.

There are many more than two gospels.

You never did get around to explaining the gospel of the circumcision to us. Please proceed.

 

[Danoh]

Paul was forgiven because he was not one of those like Judas.

If he had not obeyed Christ after He was revealed to him, then he would have been like Judas.

LA

Feel free to prefer your obvious misfire over the obvious clarity of Romans 11:30-32 :chuckle:

Romans 11:30-32 is WHY Paul could seek to "save some of them" (Israelites concluded in unbelief, or spiritual UNcircumcision) though he appears to have agreed not to in...

Galatians 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person: ) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me: 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: ) 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

There is that. But Paul's side of that agreement is actually this...

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

 

[Interplanner]

There are many more than two gospels.

You never did around to explaining the gospel of the circumcision to us. Please proceed.

THERE IS NO SUCH STATEMENT. It is 'the task of preaching the gospel to the circumcision and the task of preaching the gospel to the uncirc.' That is the grammatical fact, from the same writer who said 10 verses earlier that it was anathema to suggest a 2nd gospel!

These phrases are so condensed in the original that the novice will look at 'Petros tes peritomes' and say it says Peter the circumcised. That's why you consult commentaries or grammars. The only fair way to handle it is "Peter would take the same gospel to the circumcised." There are probably 10 examples in the grammars of this double-end sentence construction.

In no sense is the gospel's content being summarized as something for one and another for the other. It is one 'to euangelion' entrusted to two groups. Period.

compare v9's 'hemeis eis ta ethne, autoi de eis ten peritomen.' "We would work among gentiles; they would work among the circumcised." TAKING ONE 'TO EUANGELION.'

The person speaking just cursed anyone who suggested there were two gospels, got it?

 

[Danoh]

The gospel of the circumcision was solely focused on various edification issues they of the circumcision (which had believed it when it was still in operation) would be focused on by James, Cephas and John.

Thus, not only the same order of their writings as their names in Galatians 2; but their focus on edifucation issues in their writings to the believing remnant of Israel.

 

[Danoh]

THERE IS NO SUCH STATEMENT. It is 'the task of preaching the gospel to the circumcision and the task of preaching the gospel to the uncirc.' That is the grammatical fact, from the same writer who said 10 verses earlier that it was anathema to suggest a 2nd gospel!

These phrases are so condensed in the original that the novice will look at 'Petros tes peritomes' and say it says Peter the circumcised. That's why you consult commentaries or grammars. The only fair way to handle it is "Peter would take the same gospel to the circumcised." There are probably 10 examples in the grammars of this double-end sentence construction.

In no sense is the gospel's content being summarized as something for one and another for the other. It is one 'to euangelion' entrusted to two groups. Period.

compare v9's 'hemeis eis ta ethne, autoi de eis ten peritomen.' "We would work among gentiles; they would work among the circumcised." TAKING ONE 'TO EUANGELION.'

The person speaking just cursed anyone who suggested there were two gospels, got it?

These issues are to be understood through a great many more passages than one or two here and there "Greeked."

Reminds me of that thread on Galatians where people went on and on about what Paul may have meant by the word "accursed" in Galatians 1, due to their obvious unfamiliarity with how to study such things out THROUGH Scripture itself.

The Greek takes a back seat to overall scope and context.

Note...

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Note...

Galatians 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

Then, that is followed with other places in Scripture where a similar scope and CONTEXT are found governing a similar intended sense.

Genesis 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Galatians 6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand. 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

And on it goes in this way...the Greek not even a needed afterthought.

I mean; what foolishness this insistent need for an OVER reliance on "the Greek," or what have you - "the Greek" has already been "Greeked."

It is known as Matthew thru Revelation in the KJV.

Throw in Genesis thru Malachi as an added means of sense of intended sense via overall scope and context, and the English way over compensates.

Duh - uh!

It has been doing just that in the KJV for half a Millennium now - heavens ta betsy and wow, lol

Where's our MAD angel: Tam, right about now - we need some highly colorful, nice and loud, big time celebration icons, lol

By the way anyone catch that Denzel movie where the earth has undergone an apocalypse and he has been assigned to get the last remaining copy of the KJV to safety?

Pretty cool, Denzel, pretty cool...

Anyway...

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Says the completely clueless one. Go play on the freeway.

Just keep avoiding that LA Freeway. Why? Too much congestion.

 

[heir]

You are over simplifying.

You are refusing to 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

Paul's point in both is the same - that Christ fufilled the Father's Prophesied (Gospel of God) resurrection.

The gospel of (from) God IS the gospel of (concerning His Son) Christ.

The gospel of God is in Romans 1:1-4 KJV it is concerning God's Son Jesus Christ, as in the WHO of Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead with power. It is NOT the WHY of the cross!

Paul's point in 1 Cor. 15 is that the preaching he had delievered them was not in vain, or without Scriptural basis.

That the resurrection he had preached unto them - their resurrection - was certain because Christ rose from the dead - He IS the ONE the Scriptures had prophesied would die for sin and rise again.

Paul declares a gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV. The gospel that is declared there is the gospel by which we are saved. Can you say that about Romans 1:1-4 KJV? No, you cannot. Romans 1:1-4 KJV is not the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation that trusting the Lord after hearing and believing saves and seals you (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV):1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV is!

He then rattles off various witnesses to this very fact.

Those to whom Paul mentions were witnesses of seeing the resurrected Lord (1 Corinthians 15:5-8 KJV). They had not necessarily heard that Christ died for our sins" until Paul preached it (Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV) and after Paul received it (Galatians 1:11-12 KJV), those with him (Acts 18:24-26 KJV). The entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 is about resurrection, but the why of the cross (the power of God 1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV) is declared there and was preached as the power of God unto salvation to very one that believeth; to the Jew first and also to the Greek (Romans 1:16 KJV)/those to whom the word of this salvation was sent (Acts 26:17 KJV, Acts 13:16 KJV, Acts 13:26 KJV).

In Romans 1 he uses that to point to why he is authorized to be an Apostle - the resurrection's evidence that Jesus was the Christ: the fact that said risen - proven by said resurrection to be Christ Himself - this very Christ gave him his Apostleship.

The gospel of God declared there and by whom his authority came, yes. Neither of which are his my gospel.

While in 1 Cor. 15, he applies the evidence of the resurrection - that Jesus was the Christ - to his assertion that their resurrection is based on the fact that Christ died for their sins and rose again from the dead.

The gospel preached there is the gospel Paul declared as that which they have received, and wherein they stood, by which also they were saved. It was the gospel that was delivered unto them which Paul also received and that is: how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that He was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)! It is the gospel that was the power of God to save them and it's the gospel that is the power of God to save all men today (1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV, Titus 2:11 KJV)!

 

[heir]

Yeah, ok, Paul's admiring "your faith spoken of throughout the world" turns into his condeming "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

Talk about oversimplifying by misreading into a thing and then ending up married to it. - YOUR Paul is one confused writer :chuckle:

Paul thanked God to "all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints" (Romans 1:7-8 KJV) /those which God foreknew would believe (Romans 8:29-30 KJV). I don't think that O man was one of them as he he was resting in the law and making his boast of God (Romans 2:17 KJV, . If anything, he was being called out (Romans 2:1-4 KJV, as an example of someone who wouldn't be saved by continuing in what he was doing (Romans 2), but needed to continue in God's goodness or he too would be cut off (Romans 11:22 KJV)!

 

[heir]

Yes, I know.
She doesn't care much for folks that like Bob Enyart either.
I like Bob Enyart.
But that's OK, she and I still share many of the same views.
And we don't have to be BFFs to do so.

I do not like anyone who perverts the gospel of Christ. As to those who blindly follow them, I pray they Philippians 1:9-10 KJV and hope that something the scriptures say in the discussions will shake them loose (1 Timothy 4:16 KJV, 2 Timothy 4:2-5 KJV, Hebrews 4:12 KJV).

 

[heir]

You're not the one calling the FELLOW MADs enemies of the gospel of our salvation and or of the Mystery, just because their approach is consistent, as a result, their understanding differs - heir is...

Those who preach any other gospel than that which Paul preached, Paul says let them be accursed (Galatians 1:8-9 KJV). It is what it is and it includes anyone who adds requirements for salvation other than trusting the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation! I will call them out for doing so no matter who they are or what they identify themselves (Acts 20:30 KJV).

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Those who preach any other gospel than that which Paul preached, Paul says let them be accursed (Galatians 1:8-9 KJV). It is what it is and it includes anyone who adds requirements for salvation other than trusting the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation! I will call them out for doing so no matter who they are or what they identify themselves (Acts 20:30 KJV).

Paul preached the same gospel as did Peter.

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Act 19:7 And all the men were about twelve.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

If you preach a different gospel, then Paul said you are accursed.

LA

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Paul preached the same gospel as did Peter.

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Act 19:7 And all the men were about twelve.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

If you preach a different gospel, then Paul said you are accursed.

LA

And of course, you're WRONG yet another time. How do you do it? At least you're consistent. Stay off that LA Freeway.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Those who preach any other gospel than that which Paul preached, Paul says let them be accursed (Galatians 1:8-9 KJV). It is what it is and it includes anyone who adds requirements for salvation other than trusting the Lord after hearing and believing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation! I will call them out for doing so no matter who they are or what they identify themselves (Acts 20:30 KJV).

Amen! Good post Sister.

 

[Interplanner]

And of course, you're WRONG yet another time. How do you do it? At least you're consistent. Stay off that LA Freeway.

Some of you must think the gospel is the pitch of steps to take to respond to the news that God was in christ reconciling us through his sin offering. It is not. God was in Christ reconciling... is the Gospel. There are many responses to it, but none of them are the gospel.

 

[Interplanner]

These issues are to be understood through a great many more passages than one or two here and there "Greeked."

Reminds me of that thread on Galatians where people went on and on about what Paul may have meant by the word "accursed" in Galatians 1, due to their obvious unfamiliarity with how to study such things out THROUGH Scripture itself.

The Greek takes a back seat to overall scope and context.

Note...

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Note...

Galatians 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

Then, that is followed with other places in Scripture where a similar scope and CONTEXT are found governing a similar intended sense.

Genesis 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Galatians 6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand. 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

And on it goes in this way...the Greek not even a needed afterthought.

I mean; what foolishness this insistent need for an OVER reliance on "the Greek," or what have you - "the Greek" has already been "Greeked."

It is known as Matthew thru Revelation in the KJV.

Throw in Genesis thru Malachi as an added means of sense of intended sense via overall scope and context, and the English way over compensates.

Duh - uh!

It has been doing just that in the KJV for half a Millennium now - heavens ta betsy and wow, lol

Where's our MAD angel: Tam, right about now - we need some highly colorful, nice and loud, big time celebration icons, lol

By the way anyone catch that Denzel movie where the earth has undergone an apocalypse and he has been assigned to get the last remaining copy of the KJV to safety?

Pretty cool, Denzel, pretty cool...

Anyway...

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Clear as mud. The first two passages you quoted show that there is only one, and the passage in question does as well.

 

[Right Divider]

THERE IS NO SUCH STATEMENT. It is 'the task of preaching the gospel to the circumcision and the task of preaching the gospel to the uncirc.' That is the grammatical fact, from the same writer who said 10 verses earlier that it was anathema to suggest a 2nd gospel!

These phrases are so condensed in the original that the novice will look at 'Petros tes peritomes' and say it says Peter the circumcised. That's why you consult commentaries or grammars. The only fair way to handle it is "Peter would take the same gospel to the circumcised." There are probably 10 examples in the grammars of this double-end sentence construction.

In no sense is the gospel's content being summarized as something for one and another for the other. It is one 'to euangelion' entrusted to two groups. Period.

compare v9's 'hemeis eis ta ethne, autoi de eis ten peritomen.' "We would work among gentiles; they would work among the circumcised." TAKING ONE 'TO EUANGELION.'

The person speaking just cursed anyone who suggested there were two gospels, got it?

Thank God what we NOW have the great IP to give us wisdom that nobody else had until NOW, some two thousand years later. It's just such a tragedy that you we not around sooner to straighten this whole mess out. Those KJV translators really could have used your help!

You, like most, do NOT read the Bible thoroughly and in its CONTEXT.

Gal 1:6-9 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: (1:7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. (1:8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (1:9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. ​

The accused are those that would preach another gospel UNTO THEM!

Read it and believe it!

P.S. Got it?